MatthewG Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Regardless, that doesn't answer my questions. Just because some says "I'm a Christian," it doesn't mean they are following the teachings and example of Christ. If someone says they're a Christian but doesn't follow Christ's teachings, are they a Christian?That's too bad it doesn't answer your questions, take it up with God. Sorry, you don't get to decide. God does. Just because they don't follow your definition of Christianity, doesn't mean they aren't followers of Christ. Get over it. Where do you get the idea it's none of your business? Christ commanded us to make disciples of all nations and teach them all He commanded. If someone is already a disciple, then there's not much point in teaching them the basics again. They need to move on to deeper teachings. If, however, someone is not a disciple, deeper teachings won't do them much good. They still need the basic teachings. How can we effectively follow those two commands from Christ if we have no way of knowing who is and isn't a disciple?He commanded me to be a disciple, not judge the hearts of man. If someone already professes to be a Christian, and follower of Christ then that is the end of that topic. What if someone believes following Christ means getting as much fun out of life as possible, so they sleep with everyone they can, men and women. They lie, cheat, steal and do countless other sins because they are following Christ the best they know how. Are they a Christian? Who or what are they following?Yes I think they're called Protestants.
jonzlaw Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 The problem with this question is Mormons and the critics have different definitions of the term "Christian." I'm not talking about doctrine. The difference is more fundamental to that. It's more about the English language than doctrine.Most dictionaries define "Christian" as something like someone who follows Christ's teachings and example. The problem those definitions are a little too vague.Mormons, in general, assume a Christian is someone who believes they are following Christ's teaching and example. Since Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and Mormons are believe they are following Christ, then they are considered Christian.Critics have a slightly different definition. They assume a Christian is someone who follows Christ's example and teachings accurately, as he taught them. Since Baptists and Mormons contradict each other on the basics of what Christ taught, they can't both be accurate. So they believe the one that isn't following Christ accurately isn't a Christian.I've heard Mormons say other churches have some truth, but not the full truth. They say the LDS church has the full truth and is God's true church. Critics are saying basically the same thing when they Mormons aren't Christian. They're not saying Mormons are completely wrong, just missing some essential truths. They're saying a church needs the full truth to be Christian. So Mormons say they're the true church and others aren't, and the critics say they're Christians and others aren't. It's basically the same claim with different terms.This is the best response yet to the OP. Elder Oaks explained to a leader of an Orthodox Church, "We preach to believers as well as unbelievers because our message, the restored gospel, makes an important addition to the knowledge, happiness, and peace of all mankind. As a matter of practicality, we preach to believers as well as unbelievers because we cannot tell the difference." (Dallin H. Oaks, â??Have You Been Saved?â? Ensign, May 1998, 55, emphasis added)
johnny Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 jonzlaw,Elder Oaks explained to a leader of an Orthodox Church, "We preach to believers as well as unbelievers because our message, the restored gospel , makes an important addition to the knowledge, happiness, and peace of all mankind. As a matter of practicality, we preach to believers as well as unbelievers because we cannot tell the difference." (Dallin H. Oaks, â??Have You Been Saved?â? Ensign, May 1998, 55, emphasis added)The problem is that the Mormon "restored gospel" is a different gospel than what the Bible reveals. The Book of Mormon reveals we are saved â??after all we can doâ?. The Bible reveals â??by grace are ye saved through faith â?¦ Not of worksâ?. Christians believe the gospel as revealed by Bible, Mormons believe the "restored gospel" as revealed by the Book of Mormon. The Mormon "restored gospel" is different than the Christian gospel.
Markk Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Now, obviously, this does not apply to all Christians; but we have to go no further than the postings on this board to know that a sizeable number of Christians refuse to allow the Mormons to use that sobriquet.This is specifically NOT a thread about WHETHER Mormons are Christian. (We really have had enough of that, I think.)This IS a thread about WHY some Christians refuse to allow that Mormonism is Christian.Any takers?All the Best!--ConsiglieriYour premis is false, Christians do not allow Mormonism to be Christian, Mormon doctrine does not allow it? Mormonism teaches worthy LDS men can become by very nature God. I could go on and on. It LDS doctrine that makes the choice.Mark John 1:12
cdowis Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Your premis is false, Christians do not allow Mormonism to be Christian, Mormon doctrine does not allow it? Mormonism teaches worthy LDS men can become by very nature God. I could go on and on. It LDS doctrine that makes the choice.We accept the teachings of Christ as found in John 17:19-23, and Rev. 3:21. I guess if we must choose to reject the teachings of the theologians who replaced the prophets, accepting instead the teachings of Christ and His prophets, you will label us as heretics.The scribes and Pharasees rejected Peter, and the other believers in Christ, as heretics. But Peter was able to move on with his life, so I guess we will have to do the same.We believe in Christ, we accept Him as our atoning Saviour, we take upon ourselves his name during the sacrament each Sunday. We are Christians, regardless of the catcalls of the modern-day scribes and Pharasees.
captain-jack Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Your premis is false, Christians do not allow Mormonism to be Christian, Mormon doctrine does not allow it? Mormonism teaches worthy LDS men can become by very nature God. I could go on and on. It LDS doctrine that makes the choice.Mark John 1:12I don't remember the rest of that idea being stipulated with, "if you believe this, then you can't be Christian". Markk, it is you who have just denied Mormons to be Christians, not our doctrine, savvy?
Billy Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 You don't get to decide who is Christian and who isn't. GOD does. You don't get to say what qualifies as a Christian, it isn't ANY of your business. If the person in their heart is following Christ, the best way they know how, THEY ARE CHRISTIAN, THEY ARE A FOLLOWER.Then why does the church excommunicate followers who have different beliefs that are not in line with traditional LDS teachings, it is obviously somebody's business.
cdowis Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Then why does the church excommunicate followers who have different beliefs that are not in line with traditional LDS teachings, it is obviously somebody's business.This is antimormon bitterspeak here.The church may discipline those who teach doctrine, contradicting the teachings of the church, and attempt to convince and mislead others to those beliefs. Specifically, those who do not have the authority to teach those doctrines.You can believe anything you want as long as you do not use your membership in the church to espouse those false beliefs in an attempt to mislead others.If you want to teach false doctrines, you should do so outside of your membership in the church. Start your own church.
Flyonthewall Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 jonzlaw,The problem is that the Mormon "restored gospel" is a different gospel than what the Bible reveals. The Book of Mormon reveals we are saved â??after all we can doâ?. The Bible reveals â??by grace are ye saved through faith â?¦ Not of worksâ?. Works of the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was all about works, and as is stated in Galatians:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.While under the Law of Moses, it was all about works and not faith. The Law was to teach them about Christ, and prepare them to live by faith, not works.Christians believe the gospel as revealed by Bible, Mormons believe the "restored gospel" as revealed by the Book of Mormon. Traditional Christians believe the gospel as revealed by men who translated the bible. Mormons believe the "restored gospel" as revealed by Jesus Christ.The Mormon "restored gospel" is different than the Christian gospel. Traditional Christians gospel is different than what Christ and the prophets taught. Oh, they take their best shot, but it is not the same. See, I can get exclusive too.You have been given numerous scriptural passages that point to our beliefs being founded squarely on the teachings of Christ, but you don't read them in the same way. Fine. We are not Catholic Christians, but we are Christians none the less. I would stand shoulder to shoulder with you as a brother in Christ, but it does not sound like you would afford the same to me, as you do not allow us worship of the same God. This is foreign to me. I could never hold such a narrow minded view.You are the best type of Sneetch on the beach.
cdowis Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 jonzlaw,The problem is that the Mormon "restored gospel" is a different gospel than what the Bible reveals. The Book of Mormon reveals we are saved â??after all we can doâ?. The Bible reveals â??by grace are ye saved through faith â?¦ Not of worksâ?.Are Catholics Christian? And the members of the Church of Christ?I think a few million Catholics would disagree with your interpretation of the Bible, and they would find it offensive that you draw the line exclusively to those who believe in the "faith only" doctrine.PS I think we have responded in detail to this doctrine elsewhere, but I guess you "forgot".
Calm Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 That's too bad it doesn't answer your questions, take it up with God. Sorry, you don't get to decide. God does.I guess being made perfect already means one doesn't have to obey all of Christ's instructions, top of this list of ones you can now safely ignore being this one: Matt 7:1 Judge not, that ye not be judged.
johnny Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 FlyonthewallWhile under the Law of Moses, it was all about works and not faith. The Law was to teach them about Christ, and prepare them to live by faith, not works.Under Mormonism it is â??after all we can doâ?.Traditional Christians believe the gospel as revealed by men who translated the bible. Mormons believe the "restored gospel" as revealed by Jesus Christ.The Mormon "restored gospel" is different than the inspired word of God, the Mormon "restored gospel" adds the words â??after all we can doâ?.We are not Catholic Christians, but we are Christians none the less.You might consider yourself Christians. The Catholic Church would not consider you a Christian, see article below:http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either.I would stand shoulder to shoulder with you as a brother in Christ, but it does not sound like you would afford the same to me, as you do not allow us worship of the same God.The God as taught by Mormonism is very different than the God as revealed by the inspired word of God.
johnny Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 cdowisAre Catholics Christian? And the members of the Church of Christ?Catholics are Christian and members of the Church of Christ.I think a few million Catholics would disagree with your interpretation of the Bible, and they would find it offensive that you draw the line exclusively to those who believe in the "faith only" doctrine.Why do you put words in my mouth ... I did not say "faith only".
Rommelator Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 johnny:Let me ask you one question: Do you honestly think that I care what EWTN or the Catholic Church says about whether or not I am a Christian?
jonzlaw Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Traditional Christians believe the gospel as revealed by men who translated the bible. Mormons believe the "restored gospel" as revealed by Jesus Christ.Really quick aside - I still don't get this. I understand that Mormons reject certain traditional Christian doctrine/belief because they think it has been messed with by men over the years. But I do not understand how it is that the "restored gospel" is any different. I know that the Mormons believe the restored gospel was "revealed" by Jesus, but it was via Joseph. A man. How is it that you can trust that man - who messed with the Bible - over any other man who messed with the Bible?I know, I know. I'm an idiot. But a curious one.
johnny Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 RommelatorLet me ask you one question: Do you honestly think that I care what EWTN or the Catholic Church says about whether or not I am a Christian?I don't know what you care about ...
Billy Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 This is antimormon bitterspeak here.How to argue your case 1011. Criticize the person (Ad Hominem fallacy)2. Circular argument3. Restate number 1.You can believe anything you want as long as you do not use your membership in the church to espouse those false beliefs in an attempt to mislead others.Does this also apply to the baptism questions? If not, why ask them in the first place?Preach My Gospel Chapter 12 http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,...-4424-1,00.html"1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son ofGod, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?2. Do you believe the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through theProphet Joseph Smith? Do you believe that [current Church President] is a prophet of God?What does this mean to you?. . ."
Flyonthewall Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 FlyonthewallUnder Mormonism it is â??after all we can doâ?.The Mormon "restored gospel" is different than the inspired word of God, the Mormon "restored gospel" adds the words â??after all we can doâ?.You might consider yourself Christians. The Catholic Church would not consider you a Christian,Yes, all we can do to actually live our lives according to the commandments of God. Such a heretical point of view. I guess the inspired word of God would counsider it blasphemous that one would actually live the teachings of Jesus Christ, rather than merely believe them.see article below:http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either.The God as taught by Mormonism is very different than the God as revealed by the inspired word of God.Yes, yes, you've made your mantra very clear.
Flyonthewall Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Really quick aside - I still don't get this. I understand that Mormons reject certain traditional Christian doctrine/belief because they think it has been messed with by men over the years. But I do not understand how it is that the "restored gospel" is any different. I know that the Mormons believe the restored gospel was "revealed" by Jesus, but it was via Joseph. A man. How is it that you can trust that man - who messed with the Bible - over any other man who messed with the Bible?I know, I know. I'm an idiot. But a curious one.Joseph Smith was selected by God to restore the gospel. He received knowledge and understanding from God and God letting Joseph learn with hands on experience. The men who translated the Bible, got their education from men, and so their understanding of the gospel came through men and how those men understood the gospel. Translating from one language to another is very difficult and nuances and meanings can be lost very easily. The translators would then have to go on their understanding, rather than what was actually stated and meant.Joseph Smith was closer to the source.
soren Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 johnny:Let me ask you one question: Do you honestly think that I care what EWTN or the Catholic Church says about whether or not I am a Christian?Johnny's question about EWTN was legitiamte becasue it was directed at me, and I am a Catholic. Because I was claiming that Mormons are Christian, he was attempting to change my mind by citing an authority I personally respect. In fact, I have buddies at EWTN and have been educated by some of the people who give talks on their programs.
saemo Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 God calls everyone to Him, that is the basis of all belief, in every religion.We are Christians because of a Person. There is no other reason to be a Christian.We are Catholic because Christ's Church is where we belong.The three are connected, supernaturally and physically. What Mormonism, Protestantism, and all other Christian sects and cults who are not in communion with Christ's Church have done, is separate themselves. Mormonism, by a larger degree than most.It is good, to follow Christ, believe the Word of God. In this sense, yes, all of us are Christian.Yet, "right belief", the careful preservation of Truth, requires that what is false or error not replace Truth. This is the issue with Mormonism, the majority of the Christian world perceives error, and a very large effort to replace Truth with error.Can you blame us for drawing a line and saying, no, you will not cross it?
Markk Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 I don't remember the rest of that idea being stipulated with, "if you believe this, then you can't be Christian". Markk, it is you who have just denied Mormons to be Christians, not our doctrine, savvy?Look, the LDS church claims the all other so called christians are lost and broken, that the LDS church alone is the one true church restored. The LDS church, right or wrong, teaches a different Jesus and a different gospel than the lost a broken churches,other wise why is there a need for a restoration. The LDS church claims that the church's of today, have articles of faith (creeds) that are a abomination before God and those who profess them are corrupt.These doctrines, whether you admit it or not divide Mormonism from the Christian world. What Mormonism does to justify these teachings, is water down the word christian to include just about anyone. It is a I want my cake and eat it to mentality, in one hand LDS theology wants to say everybody else is wrong, lost, and broken, and in the other hand say we are all one family in being christian.So again, LDS doctrine divides, not people.MarkJohn 1:12
Log Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 Can you blame us for drawing a line and saying, no, you will not cross it?Oh no. The desire to exclude is quite understandable.Let them with ears to hear, hear.
johnny Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 sorenJohnny's question about EWTN was legitiamte becasue it was directed at me, and I am a Catholic. Because I was claiming that Mormons are Christian, he was attempting to change my mind by citing an authority I personally respect.What I find interesting is that the disciples who were first called Christians were in Antioch. The same Church where Ignatius was a bishop who was ordained by the apostle Peter. Ignatius must have worshiped with Peter and Paul and John. Ignatius learned from the apostles. His writings date from the time of Johnâ??s Revelation and a little beyond. Ignatius wrote that "there is one God" and "God existing in flesh". (see below).Acts.11 ([26] And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.)-Ignatius of Antioch "Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" (Letter to the Magnesians 6â??8 [A.D. 110])-Ignatius of Antioch "There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord." (Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52)In fact, I have buddies at EWTN and have been educated by some of the people who give talks on their programs.That is neat that you "have buddies at EWTN and have been educated by some of the people who give talks on their programs.".
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted August 31, 2008 Posted August 31, 2008 FlyonthewallUnder Mormonism it is â??after all we can doâ?.SO JohnnyYou are of the opinion that people cant have faith, they cant repent and they cant be bapstised and recieve the gift of the HG?You are alos of th opinion that people cant endure to the end in that faith, and that (lets even take it further) go through the temple to recieve ordinances?You mean to tell me that there is one person that isnt capable of doing that? I mean get real.
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