Why Do Christians Say Mormons Are Not Christian?

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

Catholics believe Protestant to be Christians. Catholics accept Protestant baptisms as valid, Catholics do not accept Mormon baptisms as valid. Protestant Christianity believes in the essential aspect of Christianity which is Christ is God.

I deny Mormons to be Christians because they deny the essential aspect of Christianity which is one God.

.

Those who wrote the list probably understood that Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teach "three Gods".

Catholics do not deny the doctrine of the Godhead, the Godhead is part of the Catholic creed.

Catholics deny the Mormon teaching that there are "three Gods" in the Godhead.

The standard is the doctrine that the Bible reveals, the Bible reveals "one God". The Bible does not reveal "three Gods" like Joseph Smith taught.

Is God the Father God, apart from Jesus or the Holy Ghost?. Is Jesus Christ God apart from the Father? Is the Holy Ghost God apart from both the Father and Son?

If they are each individually God, the only way they cannot be 3 Gods is if you make up your own definition, which you have. Then when someone comes along and says 1 God the Father + 1 God the Son + 1 God the Holy Spirit = 3 Gods being one in purpose in the Godhead, you try to put a lock on being a follower of Christ because they don't recognize your made up definition.

Oh, and when you try to tell LDS that what they believe is not what the LDS chruch teaches, you show great ignorance. It would be like me trying to tell you that you don't understand Catholicism.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

Is God the Father God, apart from Jesus or the Holy Ghost?. Is Jesus Christ God apart from the Father? Is the Holy Ghost God apart from both the Father and Son?

If they are each individually God, the only way they cannot be 3 Gods is if you make up your own definition, which you have. Then when someone comes along and says 1 God the Father + 1 God the Son + 1 God the Holy Spirit = 3 Gods being one in purpose in the Godhead, you try to put a lock on being a follower of Christ because they don't recognize your made up definition.

My definition is consistent with the apostle's Paul. Paul did not teach "three Gods" like Joseph Smith, he taught "one God ... one God and one Lord" (see below);

• 1Cor 8 ([4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.)
  

Oh, and when you try to tell LDS that what they believe is not what the LDS chruch teaches, you show great ignorance. It would be like me trying to tell you that you don't understand Catholicism.

Do Mormons believe in "three Gods"?

Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teach the following,

• Joseph Smith Teachings â??I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Godsâ?
  
• -
  
• Mormon Bible Dictionary (Godhead) "There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. ... God the Father: It is generally the Father, or Elohim, ... God the Son: The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ ... God the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost is also a God"
  

[Hoops22]

Johnny why do you not answer your own back door of web addresss ? while you are pounding at the front door of this web site ?. http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/catholic.htm.

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Ah, there it is. All is right with the world now.

[Hoops22]

Now, obviously, this does not apply to all Christians; but we have to go no further than the postings on this board to know that a sizeable number of Christians refuse to allow the Mormons to use that sobriquet.

This is specifically NOT a thread about WHETHER Mormons are Christian. (We really have had enough of that, I think.)

This IS a thread about WHY some Christians refuse to allow that Mormonism is Christian.

Any takers?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Because you won't let us gentiles use the gyms in your buildings.

[MatthewG]

Flyonthewall

My definition is consistent with the apostle's Paul. Paul did not teach "three Gods" like Joseph Smith, he taught "one God ... one God and one Lord" (see below);

• 1Cor 8 ([4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.)
  

Do Mormons believe in "three Gods"?

Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teach the following,

• Joseph Smith Teachings â??I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Godsâ?
  
• -
  
• Mormon Bible Dictionary (Godhead) "There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. ... God the Father: It is generally the Father, or Elohim, ... God the Son: The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ ... God the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost is also a God"
  

So God is three separate beings in 1, is that what you're saying?

God the Great Ventriloquist? He speaks from the heavens declaring how he's well pleased about His Son, who is being baptized, and then decides to further confuse us all by sending the Holy Ghost in the form of a dove. Why would he waste time telling us to pray to His Father, and do things in His Father's name, if He's really him? Just to further confuse the situation? And why would the disciple of Christ that was being stoned to death look up into the heavens and see Jesus sitting next to God, as in BESIDE, as in SEPARATE?

[Flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall

My definition is consistent with the apostle's Paul. Paul did not teach "three Gods" like Joseph Smith, he taught "one God ... one God and one Lord" (see below);

• 1Cor 8 ([4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. [5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) [6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.)
  

This falls in line with our belief also. We worship one God, that God is Jesus' God, and we worship Him in the name of Jesus Christ, just how Jesus taught.

Do Mormons believe in "three Gods"?

Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church teach the following,

• Joseph Smith Teachings â??I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Godsâ?
  
• -
  
• Mormon Bible Dictionary (Godhead) "There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. ... God the Father: It is generally the Father, or Elohim, ... God the Son: The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ ... God the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost is also a God"
  

There are other gods, just as the scripture you cite above states, but we worship one God, the Most High God, just as the scripture you cite above states.

There is no conflict between biblical scripture and our beliefs, our beliefs are founded in the scriptures and in prophets, just as in biblical times.

[Billy]

You say to be a Christian, "you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings. If you don't understand them, then you can't follow them." With over 10,000 different sects and denomination of Christians in the U.S. alone because of schisms or what have you it seems to me that the basic fundamentals are in the eye of the beholder. With so many different sects which one of those is the 'true Chruch?' I would really like to know.

There is no single "true church" on the earth that a person has to have membership in to obtain salvation. Born again believers can be members of a number of different churches. In fact there are a lot of non Christian members in most of the churches today sitting right next to true born again believers, this is best noted by the wheat and the tares parable in the NT. You note that there are "10,000 different sects" but I think that you would be surprised at how close the major beliefs are with one another, especially with respect to God and requirements for salvation.

You say to be a Christian, "you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings.

Lets turn this around a little bit and view it from your vantage point. Don't you think that a correct understanding and acceptance of traditional LDS views are important for those who call themselves Mormons. If I were to say that I am a Mormon but don't believe in Joseph Smith or Thomas Monson as true prophets, could I call myself a Mormon? If I am not baptized by an LDS priesthood holder, can I call myself a Mormon. See you use these same standards for Mormonism, that you criticize traditional Christianity for using. I know that there is overlap in beliefs, but so is there overlap with my examples about being a mormon above.

[Akboy]

You seem to be stuck on the word "true". We believe the teaching of 'God having no form' to be false. If you lump all the teachings that are false together, that would comprise "false christianity".

We say that Catholics are Christian. You want us to use the term "true" in front of it as an admission that the Catholic church is the "true" church. Though we believe the Catholic church to have truth in it, but it also has misconceptions and inaccuarcies, or "false" teachings. Is it all false? No. Do we think that you are truly and sincerely trying to follow Christ? Yes. So in that sense you are "true" christians, but "true" christianity for for the true teachings of Christ.

Now you take offense at us because someone used the term "false christianity". Let me ask you, do you and all other catholics think mormonism is "true christianity? If not, why then would you feel slighted that mormons would not use that term to describe catholicism in total?

Does that mean the only way a belief system can be 'false' is if all of it's teachings are false? Where do you get that idea? It doesn't seem to fit with the warnings in the NT against false teachers.

1 Peter 2

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

Were these teacher's and prophet's teaching 100% false? That doesn't seem likely. Surely at least some of their teachings were true. Yet Peter still called them 'false.' So who are the 'false teachers' in this era?

Your comments here are interesting. They indicate that faithfulness and being a Christian is based on what you are doing to follow Christ, within whatever framework you deem is basically needed. You've just described salvation based on works, putting the grace of Christ aside (because we all make mistakes within your "accurate standard" from time to time), in the definition of who is Christian.

Very interesting, indeed, coming from an "EV" perspective.

Then you're reading your ideas into what I said. EVs believe it's our beliefs that must stay within an acceptable limit, not our works or what we do. However, those beliefs must be genuine, they must be a real devotion to Christ, which will produce works. The beliefs must produce works, but the limit is still on the beliefs.

And who has the authority to interpret what is accurate?

Again, who is authoritative in determining which selected passages in the Bible - along with their interpretation - determine who is Christian?

I think you're misunderstanding EVs on this. When we witness to Mormons, and explain what we believe, we're not claiming any authority. We're not trying to impose any authority on you. We believe LDS teachings are not following Christ and those who follow the teachings aren't disciples of Christ. We believe Christ commanded us to witness to you, and the rest of the world, to make disciples of all nations.

You say to be a Christian, "you have to understand the basic fundamentals of God and His teachings. If you don't understand them, then you can't follow them." With over 10,000 different sects and denomination of Christians in the U.S. alone because of schisms or what have you it seems to me that the basic fundamentals are in the eye of the beholder. With so many different sects which one of those is the 'true Chruch?' I would really like to know.

We don't believe there is a 'true Church,' and most of those 10,000 groups don't claim to be the 'true Church.' Many of the churches agree on the fundamentals, so they could all be Christian. Mormons and Baptists, for example, disagree on what the fundamentals, so one of them isn't Christian.

[Billy]

I was under the impression that the Trinity was not a Biblical doctrine until 325AD when it became so by the Nicene Creed.

Where did you come up with this belief?

What book of the Bible was written in 325AD?

[johnny]

MatthewG

So God is three separate beings in 1, is that what you're saying?

I am not saying "three separate beings". I am saying three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

[johnny]

Flyonthewall

This falls in line with our belief also. We worship one God, that God is Jesus' God, and we worship Him in the name of Jesus Christ, just how Jesus taught.

It appears different than Mormon belief ... Mormon's says two separate Gods ... the apostle Paul says "one God and one Lord".

There are other gods, just as the scripture you cite above states, but we worship one God, the Most High God, just as the scripture you cite above states.

There is that "called gods". Mormonism teaches the Father, the Son, and the HG are "three Gods".

There is no conflict between biblical scripture and our beliefs, our beliefs are founded in the scriptures and in prophets, just as in biblical times.

There is huge conflict between biblical scripture and Mormon beliefs. Mormonism says "three Gods".

The Mormon teaching of "three Gods" is not found in the scriptures. The holy prophets of the Old Testament did not teach "three Gods" like Joseph Smith.

[Daniel Peterson]

I deny Mormons to be Christians because they deny the essential aspect of Christianity which is one God.

Then, of course, you've created a new definition of Christianity, since the ancient "Tritheists" typically have not been and are not considered non-Christian, although they are almost always classed as "heretical."

A very concise listing of some of them, along with their medieval and early modern successors, appears at

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15061b.htm

[soren]

Then, of course, you've created a new definition of Christianity, since the ancient "Tritheists" typically have not been and are not considered non-Christian, although they are almost always classed as "heretical."

A very concise listing of some of them, along with their medieval and early modern successors, appears at

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15061b.htm

You are oh, so right to make this point, and it continues to embarrass me that many of my fellow-believers are not aware of this salient point. People who study the Bible seriously should all be familiar with the phrase, or at least the concept of, "semantical range." If the question "Are Mormons Christian?" were restated as "Does the semantical range of 'Christian' contain any common meaning that applies to Mormonism?" there would be little debate.

[Tanyan]

Flyonthewall

It appears different than Mormon belief ... Mormon's says two separate Gods ... the apostle Paul says "one God and one Lord".

There is that "called gods". Mormonism teaches the Father, the Son, and the HG are "three Gods".

There is huge conflict between biblical scripture and Mormon beliefs. Mormonism says "three Gods".

The Mormon teaching of "three Gods" is not found in the scriptures. The holy prophets of the Old Testament did not teach "three Gods" like Joseph Smith.

Once again for Johnny other non LDS Christians see you as having thhe wrong Trinity -

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-catholic-nicene.htm

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Where did you come up with this belief?

What book of the Bible was written in 325AD?

Yeah exactly, what book of the bible contains any refrence to the nicean creed?

1 in 3 and 3 in 1 co-equal and all of that other stuff.

[Daniel Peterson]

You are oh, so right to make this point, and it continues to embarrass me that many of my fellow-believers are not aware of this salient point. People who study the Bible seriously should all be familiar with the phrase, or at least the concept of, "semantical range." If the question "Are Mormons Christian?" were restated as "Does the semantical range of 'Christian' contain any common meaning that applies to Mormonism?" there would be little debate.

I agree completely.

This has always seemed a pseudo-issue to me, though, alas, I feel obliged to take it very seriously. Latter-day Saints and non-Latter-day Saints should, to the extent that they're having interreligious discussions, be debating real areas of agreement and disagreement rather than arguing about eccentric redefinitions of words.

[soren]

Once again for Johnny other non LDS Christians see you as having thhe wrong Trinity -

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-catholic-nicene.htm

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Whoever wrote that website you linked knows absolutely nothing about the subject. First it claims that Catohlicism denies the subordination of the Son to the Father. This charge is only true in term of the son's divine nature which is eaul to the father, but not true in terms of his human nature which although he was in the form of God, he did not consider equlaity with God a thing to be exploited but empitied himself, tkaing the form of a servant, and became obedient even unto death... If christ "became" obedient when he took on flesh, he was not subordinate to God beforehand.

It is also wrong that the caztholic Trinity speaks where the Bible is silent one the nature of God's oneness. The Catholic Trinity is explicit where the Bible is cryptic.

The accusation that the Catholic Trinity speaks of the "mechanical make-up" of God on and almost "atomic level" is depressingly ignorant. The nature of Catholic monotheism is such that it precisely denies that God has a mechanical make-up at all. The reason that the persons ofthe Trinity are one in being is precisely because pure monotheism excludes the idea that God has parts. For this reason, the three persons cannot be parts of God or possess parts of divinity; each must be God entire or not be God at all. Using the image of atoms as if the person were parts and treating it as a machine composed of pieces misses the point altogether. This is a radical error, so fundamental as to make the entire doctrine of the Trinity immediately unintelligible from the start. It is itself sufficient evidnce of the total ignorance ofthe author of the website you linked to.

This list of antitheses lower on the page is absolutely horrible since there is nothing in the "Biblical" column that Catholicism denies. The false antithesis between the economic and imminent Trinity is a clear example since Catholic sees the economic Trinity as both real and as analogous to the imminent one. Indeed, it is by observing thee works pf the economic Trinity that the imminent Trintiy is principally knowable to us! A significant work recently published on this subject os Thomas Weinandy's The Father's Spirit of Sonship which argues an entire theology of the Holy Spirit in the imminent Trinity on the basis of the Spirit's role in the economy.

Even if the Trintiy were false, these argument are utterly sophomoric.

[soren]

deleted, double-post.

[johnny]

Daniel Peterson

Then, of course, you've created a new definition of Christianity, since the ancient "Tritheists" typically have not been and are not considered non-Christian, although they are almost always classed as "heretical."

So do you consider Mormon's "Tritheists", since Mormon confess the existence an infinite line of gods?

Joseph Smith said,

• Joseph Smitth's King Follett Sermon "... you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, ... when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself."
  

[johnny]

soren,

You are oh, so right to make this point, and it continues to embarrass me that many of my fellow-believers are not aware of this salient point.

Do you disagree or agree with the following from ETWN?

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

• Although Mormons certainly consider themselves to be Christians, the Catholic Church does not consider them to be Christians, either sacramentally or theologically. The Church has ruled that Mormon baptism is not valid, which means that Mormons are not Christians by baptism. Since Mormons believe in a plurality of gods and do not believe in Christ's divinity (as it is understood by orthodox Christians), they are not theological Christians either.
  

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.as...C&start_at=

• Those who deny the doctrine of the Holy Trinity deny that Christ is God. Now if one denies that Christ is God, he is denying an essential aspect of Christianity. So you are right in this regard and your Catholic friends are wrong. So instruct them on the meaning of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
  

[soren]

Daniel Peterson

So do you consider Mormon's "Tritheists", since Mormon confess the existence an infinite line of gods?

Joseph Smith said,

• Joseph Smitth's King Follett Sermon "... you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, ... when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself."
  

The reasons why we should deny three gods are not in principle different from why we should deny infinite gods. In either case, God is not the sole being that he is, and he is not infinite in a genuine sense. A person who believes in three gods has no reason to not believe in four, or five, etc. Thus there is nothing essential denied by Mormonism that is not also denied by tirtheism. Since heresies are measured by what they deny rather than what they affirm, Mormonism and tritheism express metaphysically equal denials of the Trinity.

[johnny]

soren,

The reasons why we should deny three gods are not in principle different from why we should deny infinite gods. In either case, God is not the sole being that he is, and he is not infinite in a genuine sense. A person who believes in three gods has no reason to not believe in four, or five, etc. Thus there is nothing essential denied by Mormonism that is not also denied by tirtheism. Since heresies are measured by what they deny rather than what they affirm, Mormonism and tritheism express metaphysically equal denials of the Trinity.

I would agree that the Mormon teaching of "three gods" is heretical. Scripture says that false prophets shall bring damnable heresies.

[Daniel Peterson]

So do you consider Mormon's "Tritheists", since Mormon confess the existence an infinite line of gods?

Yes and no. But most significantly No.

Some of my views on the oneness of the Godhead will appear in a forthcoming article (by me) on "Mormonism and the Trinity" in Element, the journal of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology. The article -- originally a paper delivered at a conference at Yale Divinity School back in 2003 -- is with the journal's editor and has been accepted for publication, but I don't have any idea yet of a timetable for its appearance.

[Calm]

deleted, double-post.

It was worth saying twice.

[johnny]

Daniel Peterson

Yes and no. But most significantly No.

Is it "No" since Mormons believe in existence of gods without number that inherit "the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, ... the same as those who have gone before."?

Is it "No" since Mormons believe that they can become a creator like our Heavenly Father?