Are Mormons Christians?

[Manny]

As opposed to who? Roman Catholics, Protestants or the early Christians and Hebrews?

Knew the kind of debates I have had with johnny in the past.

Did you cast his explanations aside then as well? Was he rude to you? Does this give you license to ignore him and reject his explanation? If so, is that the way to show people you are indeed Christian?

[Rommelator]

Did you cast his explanations aside then as well?

If by "cast aside" you mean "vehemently disagree", then yes.

Was he rude to you?

In a way, yes.

Does this give you license to ignore him and reject his explanation?

Since when have I ignored his explanation? Did you miss the post wherein I dissected part by part his silly arguments? And scine when am I under obligation to accept his explanations?

Oh...I see, you are bitter that Markk and his little "test of faith" was completely man-handled by competent Mormon apologists. Gotcha!

If so, is that the way to show people you are indeed Christian?

So, disagreeing with someone makes me a non-Christian, eh? Too bad.

[Manny]

If by "cast aside" you mean "vehemently disagree", then yes.

In a way, yes.

Since when have I ignored his explanation? Did you miss the post wherein I dissected part by part his silly arguments? And scine when am I under obligation to accept his explanations?

Oh...I see, you are bitter that Markk and his little "test of faith" was completely man-handled by competent Mormon apologists. Gotcha!

So, disagreeing with someone makes me a non-Christian, eh? Too bad.

Disagreeing is one thing. Impugning is another. You didn't dissect his argument well. "Silly" is not exactly Christian.

You don't have to agree, but you should probably be respectful enough to try to understand his point of view. It's just courteous and demonstrates a willingness to learn.

Of course, you've not even touched on my explanation.....which leads me to believe there may be more than meets the eye with your inconsiderate responses.

[Mudcat]

You know........

this thread reminds of another thread....or twenty.

But I think it was titled "Are Mormons Christian?" of was it "Are Christians Mormon?"

My thoughts are, some are some ain't.

edit add -

I can't really say for sure...but....

I think Rommelmiester is in the 'some are' category.

[Rommelator]

Disagreeing is one thing. Impugning is another.

How have I impugned johnny? Show me!

You didn't dissect his argument well.

Stop impugning me, Manny! (See, this kind of thing can be fun!)

"Silly" is not exactly Christian.

Are you kidding me? How so?

You don't have to agree, but you should probably be respectful enough to try to understand his point of view.

Oh, I have had plenty of opportunities to see johnny's point of view. Basically it boils down to this, and you can quote me on it:

"Catholic interpretation = right. Non-Catholic interpretation = wrong"

It's just courteous and demonstrates a willingness to learn.

Thanks for the tip.

Of course, you've not even touched on my explanation.....which leads me to believe there may be more than meets the eye with your inconsiderate responses.

So, you are going off of an argument from silence, eh? Okay. Well, as they say, to every man his own!

[Manny]

I have no idea about Markk's test. I'm not Markk, and I've not looked at that thread. My apologies.Whether or not the Christian view of God (RCC and Protestant) is right or wrong...that is their explanation. If you define a Christian as, inter alia, one who believes in the trinitarian Christ, then when the a church does not believe in the trinity, deductively, it makes sense that they don't think the non-trinitarian church is Christian.Now, if you want to argue whether the RCC/Protestant view of God is accurate or right, then I think you should start a new thread on that very topic.

How have I impugned johnny? Show me!Stop impugning me, Manny! (See, this kind of thing can be fun!)Are you kidding me? How so? Oh, I have had plenty of opportunities to see johnny's point of view. Basically it boils down to this, and you can quote me on it:"Catholic interpretation = right. Non-Catholic interpretation = wrong"Thanks for the tip.So, you are going off of an argument from silence, eh? Okay. Well, as they say, to every man his own!

We could go back and forth on this. I'll stop hijacking your thread and allow you to continue your discourse.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Yep, the question as posed is unanswerable. Just like you (all) can't say if I am or not.

Edited to add:

Despite all the evidence against me.

Hoops22, if you say you're a Christian, I'll unreservedly believe you.

[Hoops22]

Hoops22, if you say you're a Christian, I'll unreservedly believe you.

But I'm an alleged anti?

[cksalmon]

You know........

this thread reminds of another thread....or twenty.

But I think it was titled "Are Mormons Christian?" of was it "Are Christians Mormon?

No kidding.

I'm generally adverse personally to rehashing topics adequately represented in the archives, although others, of course, might find the exercise instructive.

I'm generally going to follow my protocol here. The breadth of background material and the depth of reflection requisite to addressing this discussion topic usefully and fairly just aren't going to materialize on any message board.

cks

[Hamba Tuhan]

But I'm an alleged anti?

Why should that matter??? If you tell me you're a disciple of Jesus Christ, I'll believe you. I already believe you.

[Mudcat]

Hoops22, if you say you're a Christian, I'll unreservedly believe you.

If it was me, I'd have to plug him in to the polygraph first .

Just kiddin H22

[SilverKnight]

You know........

this thread reminds of another thread....or twenty.

No kidding.

So I'll play the role of critic and tell you why some Mainstream Christians say mormons are not Christians:

Yes, we realize LDS believe in the divine, salvific qualities of Jesus Christ. But the LDS conception of God (and by extension Christ) is so far off of what traditional Christianity and the Bible teaches about the subject, it puts mormon theology over a certain doctrinal tipping point of no return - namely that God is an exalted man who was once mortal - a irreconcilably different idea than the uncreated, unchanging God of Abrahamic religion.

Also, LDS make a big deal about others defining what is, and what is not, LDS doctrine and teaching (ie. what Mormons believe) but hypocritically do not afford Mainstream Christians the same luxury of self-defining what is, and what is not Christian Belief.

[Mudcat]

Somehow, I felt compelled to jack this thread with a Star Wars parody as I play the part of 'Jack Mormon'

You have paid the price for your lack of vision!

Yes, we realize LDS believe in the divine, salvific qualities of Jesus Christ. But the LDS conception of God (and by extension Christ) is so far off of what traditional Christianity and the Bible teaches about the subject, it puts mormon theology over a certain doctrinal tipping point of no return - namely that God is an exalted man who was once mortal - a irreconcilably different idea than the uncreated, unchanging God of Abrahamic religion.

You want this, don't you? The Spirit is swelling in you now. Take your Bible. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more a Mormon.

Also, LDS make a big deal about others defining what is, and what is not, LDS doctrine and teaching (ie. what Mormons believe) but hypocritically do not afford Mainstream Christians the same luxury of self-defining what is, and what is not Christian Belief.

Your feeble skills are no match for the power of Mormonism.

[Hoops22]

If it was me, I'd have to plug him in to the polygraph first .

Just kiddin H22

Unfortunately, you know me too well. That's not fair!

[tana]

Hey guys....sorry to serious up your all your fun here, but we are having a debate.....aren't we...er you....

What does it take to be considered a "Christian"?....

I would say; A person who believes that a man named Jesus was born to Mary and Joseph. Irrelevant as to how he was conceived. [within reason] His life was sacrifice to atone for the sins of man/fall of Adam. If you believe in him [and] follow his teachings you can be saved in heaven. Irrelevant as to what dogma is created by religions before or after this. I.E. pre existence/post existence.

[ed2276]

Rommelator

Below is what ETWN, a Catholic TV station, wrote on the matter:

Not yielding the field to some writer on ETWN as to who is or is not a Christian, I'll go down the list here:

A Christian is one who believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, and that he died for our sins, and rose from the grave.

Mormons believe this. Check in "yes" box for Christian.

A Christian believes that we have the hope of eternal life through faith in His life, death and resurrection.

Mormons believe this. Check in "yes" box for Christian.

A Christian is baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Mormons believe this. Check in "yes" box for Christian.

These teachings put Mormons outside the Christian faith because Mormons do not believe these things.

False.

Mormons believe that there are many gods, but the ancient faith of Isreal and of Christians professes "Hear O Isreal: The lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" (Dueteronomy 6: 4-5)

Here we go again, Johnny. First, your proclamation about what the ancient faith of Israel was is in question and so what certain "Christians" profess based on errant understanding is not a valid basis for declaring LDS belief wrong. In fact, given the insights of certain scholars about what ancient Israel and early Christians believed about this subject, LDS are right in line with the ancient religion.

Lastly, you yourself believe that there are many gods and you have said so in the thread on the divine council, so by ETWN standards you are not a Christian! My goodness!!!

Christians do not recognize the Book of Mormon as a text inspired by God.

Which simply means that "Christians" who don't recognize the BoM as inspired text fail to understand inpiration. Their failure to recognize inspired text does not make Mormons non-Christians, nor does it mean that the BoM is uninspired text.

There are other differences that would cause one to say that Mormons are not Christians, they are Mormons.

No, we are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are disciples of Jesus, and who is more Christian than Jesus?

These truths are said not in condemnation, but simply stated as truth.

Thank you for not condemning us, but they are not truth; they are erroneous.

All Christians, Mormons, Muslims, and all humanity are dependent upon the grace and mercy of God

Indeed, we all are.

[Cold Steel]

What's amazing is that some people think Obama's a Christian and that Mormons aren't.

This is a guy who can grasp the intricacies of global warming and make a bold decision, yet is confused by when life begins in the womb.

What I've seen of mainstream "Christianity" lately makes me not want to associate myself with them much at all.

[coolrok7]

Rommelator, suggestion, perhaps you should ask if "Mormonism" is Christian instead of are Mormons Christian which would be the appropriate question to ask . Just an observation.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Dr. Stephen E. Robinson in his book asks the question, â??Are Mormons Christians?â?:

It is not my purpose in these pages to prove, or even argue, that the LDS church is true or that its doctrines are correct, even though I believe both of those propositions. I will attempt to show why the arguments used to exclude Latter-day Saints from the â??Christianâ? world are flawed. The operating principle behind most of my arguments will

not be rectitude but equityâ??what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. That is if Augustine or Luther or John Paul II can express opinions or insist on beliefs that differ from the Christian mainstream and yet still be considered Christians, then Joseph Smith or Brigham Young cannot be disqualified from bearing the title when they express the same or similar opinions. . . .

When the charge is made that â??Mormons arenâ??t Christians,â? the very first impression created in the mind of the average individual is that [*]Latter-day Saints donâ??t believe in Jesus Christ. Most often those who make this charge intend that their uninformed hearers or readers will get this impression. Yet in the arguments offered to support the assertion the only issue that really matters is never even raised: Do the Latter-day Saints believe in Jesus Christ? Do they accept him as Lord?

Do they believe that he is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no man cometh unto the Father but by him? These crucial questions are never asked. (1991, p.viii, p.111)

[*] It is Biblically more accurate to say that Latter-day Saints believe in the â??another Jesusâ? â??a different spiritâ? â??a different gospelâ? that Paul warned about:

But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

Mormons can be Christian in some of what they believe although the "Mormonism" of Joeseph Smith is not in actuality "Christian" based on his own borrowed quotes from the Bible interspersed with his own made up teachings (my perspective).

This is not the Biblical Gospel:

. . .God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, . . . (History of the Church, Joseph Smith Jr., April 1844, 6:305)

â??As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may beâ?â?? Lorenzo Snow

The first principles of men are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. . . . (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.354)

The Gospel of the Son of God that has been revealed is a plan or system of laws and ordinances, by strict obedience to which the people who inhabit this earth are assured that they may return again into the presence of the Father and the Son. (quoted in the pamphlet entitled, BRIGHAM YOUNG PROPHET STATESMAN PIONEER, 11/81; JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, 13:233, Brigham Young)

Our Heavenly Parents have through aeons of time and a multitude of experiences gradually become acquainted with and applied in their lives an untold number of these everlasting laws. As they learned these verities and how to operate them, these laws thereby became subject unto Elohim and henceforth were His lawsâ??or, in other words, the Gospel of Jesus Christ. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.4)

Jesus became a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.51)

The Mystery Religions, pagan rivals of Christianity, taught emphatically the doctrine that â??men may become Gods.â? Hermeticism, which had its rise in Egypt in the second or third centuries B.C., was a prominent religion in the Mediterranean world during the period of the rise of Christianity. Its literature, The Corpus Hermeticum, professes to be revelations to Hermes from his divine father and teacher. Hermes declared: â??We must not shrink from saying that a man on earth is a mortal god, and that God in heaven is an immortal man.â? This thought very closely resembles the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and of President Lorenzo Snow. (The Gospel Through the Ages, Milton R. Hunter, p.110)

This is:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:8-9)

[jwhitlock]

Disagreeing is one thing. Impugning is another. You didn't dissect his argument well. "Silly" is not exactly Christian.

I'm going to have to let rhinomelon know about this new Christian standard. He uses the "silly" word quite a bit.

[blueadept]

Why would the RCC recognize other Christian denominations' baptisms but not those of the Latter-day Saints?

The nature of G-d of many EV's such as Lutheran fall in line w/ Catholic thought; therefore, the RCC doesn't repeat the baptism process if/when they join since the church firmly believes in the need of only one baptism in a persons lifetime since we receive G-d's grace and we're marked. From my POV, at least the RCC does recognize other baptisms where the need for baptism in the LDS church exists for ALL new members and if members fall far enough out of grace w/ the church, another baptism will be needed. The concept is mind-boggling from Catholic thought.

It seems as if they feel threatened by them. Almost as if the Latter-day Saints have the authority to do such.

Why would they feel threatened? Each church has there established ties to Christ. We simply disagree who really has the authority of Christ. Oh well.

[Flyonthewall]

Dr. Stephen E. Robinson in his book asks the question, â??Are Mormons Christians?â?:

[*] It is Biblically more accurate to say that Latter-day Saints believe in the â??another Jesusâ? â??a different spiritâ? â??a different gospelâ? that Paul warned about:

Mormons can be Christian in some of what they believe although the "Mormonism" of Joeseph Smith is not in actuality "Christian" based on his own borrowed quotes from the Bible interspersed with his own made up teachings (my perspective).

This is not the Biblical Gospel:

This is:

We claim that we worship the true Jesus Christ, and it would be just as easy to say traditional christianity worships a hollow shell of what the Lord Jesus Christ actually is or a "different spirit", "another Jesus".

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:8-9)

We believe this, yet we are shut out of being "christians". Perhaps we do not have stars upon ours.

[Akboy]

The problem with this question is Mormons and the critics have different definitions of the term "Christian." I'm not talking about doctrine. The difference is more fundamental to that. It's more about the English language than doctrine.

Most dictionaries define "Christian" as something like someone who follows Christ's teachings and example. The problem those definitions are a little too vague.

Mormons, in general, assume a Christian is someone who believes they are following Christ's teaching and example. Since Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and Mormons are believe they are following Christ, then they are considered Christian.

Critics have a slightly different definition. They assume a Christian is someone who follows Christ's example and teachings accurately, as he taught them. Since Baptists and Mormons contradict each other on the basics of what Christ taught, they can't both be accurate. So they believe the one that isn't following Christ accurately isn't a Christian.

I've heard Mormons say other churches have some truth, but not the full truth. They say the LDS church has the full truth and is God's true church. Critics are saying basically the same thing when they Mormons aren't Christian. They're not saying Mormons are completely wrong, just missing some essential truths. They're saying a church needs the full truth to be Christian. So Mormons say they're the true church and others aren't, and the critics say they're Christians and others aren't. It's basically the same claim with different terms.

[Jason]

My definition of who is a Christian is "someone who claims to be attempting to follow the teachings of Jesus."

He doesn't have to believe any extra-biblical creeds. He doesn't have to believe any particular biblical teaching more than another. He doesn't have to believe Jesus was divine. He doesn't even have to believe in God.

Man is imperfect. Therefore anyone who attempts to follow the teachings of Jesus does so imperfectly. Therefore it is merely a difference of degrees between a Roman Catholic and a Jehovah's Witness (to take two semi-random examples - you can decide which is closer) - both are Christian.

This definition of "who is a Christian" is only useful in distinguishing Christians from obvious non-Christians - Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists, etc., and that is the only distinction someone who has been commanded not to judge his fellow men less he be judged should make - one based on what the person agrees that he is.

If I say I'm trying to follow the teachings of Jesus then I am a Christian. If you say you're trying to follow Jesus' teachings then you are a Christian. It doesn't matter what either one of us actually believes or how contrary our beliefs are.

Being acknowledged as a Christian is different from being acknowledged as a good (or bad) person and should be. There will be Christians in both Hell and Heaven, however you define Hell and Heaven. Many non-Christians are much better people than many Christians. Hitler and Mother Teresa were both equally Christians. Good or bad, true or false don't enter into the definition of who can be called a Christian.

[Flyonthewall]

The problem with this question is Mormons and the critics have different definitions of the term "Christian." I'm not talking about doctrine. The difference is more fundamental to that. It's more about the English language than doctrine.

Most dictionaries define "Christian" as something like someone who follows Christ's teachings and example. The problem those definitions are a little too vague.

Mormons, in general, assume a Christian is someone who believes they are following Christ's teaching and example. Since Catholics, Baptists, Protestants and Mormons are believe they are following Christ, then they are considered Christian.

Critics have a slightly different definition. They assume a Christian is someone who follows Christ's example and teachings accurately, as he taught them. Since Baptists and Mormons contradict each other on the basics of what Christ taught, they can't both be accurate. So they believe the one that isn't following Christ accurately isn't a Christian.

I've heard Mormons say other churches have some truth, but not the full truth. They say the LDS church has the full truth and is God's true church. Critics are saying basically the same thing when they Mormons aren't Christian. They're not saying Mormons are completely wrong, just missing some essential truths. They're saying a church needs the full truth to be Christian. So Mormons say they're the true church and others aren't, and the critics say they're Christians and others aren't. It's basically the same claim with different terms.

What it boils down to is how inclusive or exclusive of a definition is used.

We as mormons, use an inclusive definition, that is anyone who believes in Christ as the son of God and redeemer of the world, is christian. It does not matter that we disagree on the interpretation of scripture, our God is the same.

Traditional christians seem to use the exclusive definition - you must believe as I do or you are not christian. If you interpret scriptures differently, then you do not worship the same God I do.

We each are looking towards the same God, we just have different perspectives.

[Ms. Jack]

Are Mormons Christians?

The first time I began asking myself this question was during those Yahoo! chat room missionary discussions with Avatar4321, when he was 18 and I was 16. At first our conversations were friendly, stuff like "well I believe X" to which he would reply "and I believe Y." But our confrontations became more and more... um... confrontational. He would challenge me to read the Book of Mormon and pray about it, and I would weakly reply that he ought to read the Bible and pray about whether or not it was God's only scripture, but he would reply without missing a beat, "I HAVE!" And our conversations turned into fights. I got in one little fight and my mom got scared, she said "You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air!" I whistled for a cab and when it came near the license plate said "FRESH" and it had dice in the mirror. If anything I can say this cab was rare, but I thought "Now forget it" - "Yo homes to Bel Air!" I pulled up to the house about 7 or 8 and I yelled to the cabbie, "Yo homes smell ya later." I looked at my kingdom, I was finally there, to sit on my throne as the Prince of Bel Air.

This chestnut of a topic has now been BEL AIR'ed!

/exit thread