The Divine Council

[Rommelator]

Please provide some quotes from Smith and Barker that they believe the Mormon teaching that a divine council of angels created man.

QUOTE

Why don't you? I gave you the references, now you do your own dirty work.

I have a problem with Mormon scripture which reveals that a council of Gods created man because this is contrary to what the OT and the NT reveal

Totally false. I see your dogmatism has shut the blinders on your eyes. Oh well.

Really do look up those works and the others provided by other posters.

[Rommelator]

Here is how Mark Smith renders Psalm 82:1.

"God (elohim) stands in the divine assembly of El (adat el)

Among the divinities (elohim) He pronounces judgment"

Also from the Dead Sea Scrolls on Det. 32:8-9:

"When the Most High (elyon) alloted peoples for inheritance,

When He divided up humanity,

He fixed the boundries for peoples,

According to the number of divine sons:

For Yahweh's portion is his people,

Jacob his own inheritance."

Smith later goes on to show on page 100 how the reason that the gods in Psalm 82 are "dead" is because they have failed their divine duties, which would, of course, bring attention to Lucifer, Son of the Morning, who fell from on high when he rebelled against God.

[johnny]

Rommelator

Really do look up those works and the others provided by other posters

I would suggest you look up the the writings of the early apostolic Christians. Ignatius of Antioch was an ordained bishop whose writings date from the time of Johnâ??s Revelation and a little beyond. Iraneus was an ordained bishop who was made an overseer of the Church by the Holy Ghost.

• Ignatius of Antioch "Jesus Christ . . . was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . [T]here is one God, who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him" (Letter to the Magnesians 6â??8 [A.D. 110] ).
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else. . . . For God did not stand in need of these in order to accomplish what he had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if he did not possess his own hands. For with him [the Father] were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, â??Let us make man in our image and likenessâ?? [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1 [A.D. 189].
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nor is he moved by anyone; rather, freely and by his Word he made all things. For he alone is God, he alone is Lord, he alone is Creator, he alone is Father, he alone contains all and commands all to exist" (ibid., 2:1:1). "Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them; and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "The Son, though, always co-existing with the Father, of old and from the beginning, always reveals the Father to the angels and archangels and powers and virtues and to all to whom God wishes to give revelation" (ibid. 2:30:9). "The various heretical gnostics transform the generation of the uttered word of men to the eternal Word of God, attributing to him a beginning of utterance and a coming into being in a manner like that of their own word. In what manner, then, would the Word of God--indeed, the great God himself, since he is the Word--differ from the word of men, were he to have the same order and process of generation?" (Against Heresies 2:13:8 [A.D. 180]).
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  

[johnny]

Rommelator

Here is how Mark Smith renders Psalm 82:1.

Sounds good to me ...

[Rommelator]

I would suggest you look up the the writings of the early apostolic Christians.

Why would I do that when trying to exegete the Hebrew Bible? It would be like asking a Mormon to comment on Catholic doctrine.

I would rather stick to scholars who know the Hebrew and have texts such as the Ugaritic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls at disposal when discussing the context of Israelite polytheism.

[johnny]

Rommelator

I would rather stick to scholars who know the Hebrew and have texts such as the Ugaritic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls at disposal when discussing the context of Israelite polytheism.

I will stick to those who knew apostles personally, who were ordained by the apostle Peter, and who knew what the apostles taught.

[Rommelator]

I will stick to those who knew apostles personally, who were ordained by the apostle Peter, and who knew what the apostles taught.

What does this have to do with the exegesis of the Hebrew Bible?

Oh, that's right, I forgot that if you are not Catholic your interpretation does not count. Even if you know Hebrew and have the texts, the dogmatism of Rome will always win out.

[Ron Beron]

'johnny' continues...

I would explain it by saying that "wisdom" is a not created being like those in the divine council.

That is not what the scriptures I had attached said. You are obfuscating.

Wisdom is not "an entirely different creation", the prophet Jeremiah says "by his wisdom"

• Jer.10:10-16 (the LORD is the true God, he is the living God ... He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens ... The LORD of hosts is his name.)
  

Again, you are obfuscating. Look up Wisdom in a Hebrew dictionary...Wisdom is read as Hokhma indicating a separate creation. Some (Gerald Schroeder) have found the need for its inclusion in Genesis 1:1 where it would state...bâ??reshit hokhma bara elokim et hashamayim vâ??et. haâ??aretz. meaning:. In the beginning of wisdom, God created the heavens and the earth.

Also you might want to consider some of the teachings laid down by early Catholicism...

The dogma of the Virgin Mary as the â??mother of Godâ? and â??bearer of Godâ? is connected in the closest way with the dogma of the incarnation of the divine Logos. The theoretical formation of doctrine did not bring the veneration of the mother of God along in its train; instead, the doctrine only reflected the unusually great role that this veneration already had taken on at an early date in the liturgy and in the church piety of orthodox faithful.

The expansion of the veneration of the Virgin Mary as the bearer of God (http://original.britannica.com/eb/topic?id...3&typeId=13Theotokos) and the formation of the corresponding dogma comprise one of the most astonishing occurrences in the history of the early church. The New Testament offers only scanty points of departure for this development. Although she has a prominent place in the narratives of the Nativity and the Passion of Christ, Mary completely recedes behind the figure of Jesus, who stands in the centre of all four Gospels. From the Gospels themselves it can be recognized that Jesus' development into the preacher of the Kingdom of God took place in sharp opposition to his family, who were so little convinced of his mission that they held him to be insane (Mark 3:21); in a later passage Jesus refuses to recognize them (Mark 3:31). Accordingly, all the Gospels stress the fact that Jesus separated himself from his family. Even The Gospel According to John still preserved traces of Jesus' tense relationship with his mother. Mary appears twice without being called by name the mother of Jesus; and Jesus himself regularly withholds from her the designation of mother.

Nevertheless, with the conception of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, a tendency developed early in the church to grant to the mother of the Son of God a special place within the church. This development was sketched quite hesitantly in the New Testament. Only the Gospels of Matthew and Luke mention the http://original.britannica.com/eb/topic?id...6&typeId=13virgin birth. On these scanty presuppositions the later veneration of the mother of God was developed. The view of the virgin birth entered into the creed of all Christianity and became one of the strongest religious impulses in the development of the dogma, liturgy, and ecclesiastical piety of the early church.

Veneration of the mother of God received its impetus when the Christian Church became the imperial church. Despite the lack of detail concerning Mary in the Gospels, cultic veneration of the divine virgin and mother found within the Christian Church a new possibility of expression in the worship of Mary as the virgin mother of God, in whom was achieved the mysterious union of the divine Logos with human nature. The spontaneous impulse of popular piety, which pushed in this direction, moved far in advance of the practice and doctrine of the church. In Egypt, Mary was, at an early point, already worshiped under the title of Theotokosâ??an expression that Origen used in the 3rd century. The Council of Ephesus (431) raised this designation to a dogmatic standard. To the latter, the second http://original.britannica.com/eb/topic?id...8&typeId=13Council of Constantinople (553) added the title â??eternal Virgin.â? In the prayers and hymns of the Orthodox Church the name of the mother of God is invoked as often as is the name of Christ and the Holy Trinity.

The doctrine of the heavenly Wisdom (Sophia) represents an Eastern Church particularity. In late Judaism, speculations about the heavenly Wisdomâ??a figure beside God that presents itself to humanity as mediator in the work of creation as well as mediator of the knowledge of Godâ??abounded. In Roman Catholic doctrine, Mary, the mother of God, was identified with the figure of the divine Wisdom. To borrow a term used in Christology to describe Jesus as being of the same substance (hypostasis) as the Father, Mary was seen as possessing a divine hypostasis.

This process of treating Mary and the heavenly Wisdom alike did not take place in the realm of the Eastern Orthodox Church. For all its veneration of the mother of God, the Eastern Orthodox Church never forgot that the root of this veneration lay in the incarnation of the divine Logos that took place through her. Accordingly, in the tradition of Orthodox theology, a specific doctrine of the heavenly Wisdom, http://original.britannica.com/eb/topic?id...5&typeId=13Sophianism, is found alongside the doctrine of the mother of God. This distinction between the mother of God and the heavenly Sophia in 20th-century Russian philosophy of religion (in the works of Vladimir Solovyov, Pavel Florensky, W.N. Iljin, and Sergey Bulgakov) developed a special Sophianism. Sophianism did, however, evoke the opposition of Orthodox academic theology. The numerous great churches of Hagia Sophia, foremost among them the cathedral by that name in Constantinople (Istanbul), are consecrated to this figure of the heavenly Wisdom. From the Encyclopedia Britannica

http://original.britannica.com/eb/topic?id...5&typeId=13

• 
  

[johnny]

Ron Beron

Again, you are obfuscating. Look up Wisdom in a Hebrew dictionary...Wisdom is read as Hokhma indicating a separate creation. Some (Gerald Schroeder) have found the need for its inclusion in Genesis 1:1 where it would state...bâ??reshit hokhma bara elokim et hashamayim vâ??et. haâ??aretz. meaning:. In the beginning of wisdom, God created the heavens and the earth.

Wisdom is also personified (Prov 8 ) , Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity. The Catholic Church teaches the following about "wisdom",

• 292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.
  
• -
  
• 295 We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."
  

Also you might want to consider some of the teachings laid down by early Catholicism...

Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." (see Catholic teaching below).

• 721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." In her, the "wonders of God" that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested:
  

[Sargon]

Ron Beron

Wisdom is also personified (Prov 8 ) , Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity. The Catholic Church teaches the following about "wisdom",

• 292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.
  
• -
  
• 295 We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."
  

Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." (see Catholic teaching below).

• 721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." In her, the "wonders of God" that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested:
  

Johnny, I don't get it. Why do you cite the teachings of the Catholic Church as if they have any sort of recognized authority on this message board? It just doesn't seem to make much sense. If you accuse me of believing error, and I respond by quoting an LDS apostle, how is that going to help my case? Get it?

[kryoung1983]

Ron Beron

Wisdom is also personified (Prov 8 ) , Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity. The Catholic Church teaches the following about "wisdom",

• 292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.
  
• -
  
• 295 We believe that God created the world according to his wisdom. It is not the product of any necessity whatever, nor of blind fate or chance. We believe that it proceeds from God's free will; he wanted to make his creatures share in his being, wisdom and goodness: "For you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created." Therefore the Psalmist exclaims: "O LORD, how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them all"; and "The LORD is good to all, and his compassion is over all that he has made."
  

Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." (see Catholic teaching below).

• 721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." In her, the "wonders of God" that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested:
  

Johny, I sugest that you read temple roots of christian liturgy by Margaret Barker and The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael patai. Patai is especially good in regards to the concept of asherah and how this manifested intsef in later jewish thought. I just bought Blake T. Ostlers Book 'of God and gods' today. It really is quite good. In it he makes this observation that I just barely read.

"There is also a conection between Psalm 82 and Genesis 1:26 which describe humankind being made in the image and likeness of the gods, though mortal. As Randall Garr argues, the i ntentionof this passage is precisely that humans are created on earth to take the place of the gods in whose image they are created. The statement that man is 'created in the image and likeness' of the gods is not merely a description meaning that they resemble or look like the gods; rather, they are the gods become mortal. To be made in the image and the likeness of the gods entails not merely being like the gods, but also of being replicas of them to rule and have dominion. Adam is created to be Gods image on earth, having dominion and divine authority over all the creatures of the earth as a gift of yahweh-eloheim. At the creation of the world, humankind is given dominion over the world subject to yahweh-elohem, and essentially humankind becomes to God what the gods in the assembly of God had been--subject to and subordinate to the high god as rulers over the earth."

I really liked that passage. I am still in the first chapter of the book but the idea of similitudes is simply amazing. Do not all things on earth bear witness of heaven. Indeed they do.

[cksalmon]

Why would I do that when trying to exegete the Hebrew Bible? It would be like asking a Mormon to comment on Catholic doctrine.

I would rather stick to scholars who know the Hebrew and have texts such as the Ugaritic texts and the Dead Sea Scrolls at disposal when discussing the context of Israelite polytheism.

Like Heiser, for example. Just to temper the LDS Barker fetish.

[Ron Beron]

'johnny' writes,

Wisdom is also personified (Prov 8 ) , Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity. The Catholic Church teaches the following about "wisdom",

• 292 The Old Testament suggests and the New Covenant reveals the creative action of the Son and the Spirit, inseparably one with that of the Father. This creative co-operation is clearly affirmed in the Church's rule of faith: "There exists but one God. . . he is the Father, God, the Creator, the author, the giver of order. He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom", "by the Son and the Spirit" who, so to speak, are "his hands". Creation is the common work of the Holy Trinity.
  

Have you actually read your post? "This creative co-operation" means exactly what? And secondly, "He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom"," This implies that God created all things through His Wisdom. The argument you are laying down separates two basic concepts by a thousand years. The "creative cooperation" you mention is explicit within the OT while the concept of the trinity doesn't rear its head until at least the neoplatonic studies of Plotinus. You are attempting to read OT theology through NT eyes. You have it backwards.

Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." (see Catholic teaching below).

• 721 Mary, the all-holy ever-virgin Mother of God, is the masterwork of the mission of the Son and the Spirit in the fullness of time. For the first time in the plan of salvation and because his Spirit had prepared her, the Father found the dwelling place where his Son and his Spirit could dwell among men. In this sense the Church's Tradition has often read the most beautiful texts on wisdom in relation to Mary. Mary is acclaimed and represented in the liturgy as the "Seat of Wisdom." In her, the "wonders of God" that the Spirit was to fulfill in Christ and the Church began to be manifested:
  

What you are proclaiming here is Mary as the Great Cosmic Mother or Sophia. I suppose every tradition needs one.

• 
  

[MormonPeasant]

This debate reminds me of the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail in the battle between King Arthur and the Black Knight. No matter how he is sliced and diced, the Black Knight refuses to yield.

johnny, I dub thee Sir Black Knight for your persistence.

[Sargon]

This debate reminds me of the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail in the battle between King Arthur and the Black Knight. No matter how he is sliced and diced, the Black Knight refuses to yield.

johnny, I dub thee Sir Black Knight for your persistence.

[johnny]

Ron Beron

Have you actually read your post? "This creative co-operation" means exactly what? And secondly, "He made all things by himself, that is, by his Word and by his Wisdom"," This implies that God created all things through His Wisdom. The argument you are laying down separates two basic concepts by a thousand years. The "creative cooperation" you mention is explicit within the OT while the concept of the trinity doesn't rear its head until at least the neoplatonic studies of Plotinus. You are attempting to read OT theology through NT eyes. You have it backwards.

It is not a matter of having it backwards, it is a matter of moving forward. You left off or ignored the important part of the Catholic teaching #292 which says "by the Son and the Spirit". The concept "by his Word" and "by the Son" are separated because "the Word" was in the beginning and at the incarnation "the Word" became "the Son". The concept of the trinity is consistent with both the OT theology and the additional revelation of the NT.

What you are proclaiming here is Mary as the Great Cosmic Mother or Sophia. I suppose every tradition needs one.

I am not proclaiming Mary is "the Great Cosmic Mother or Sophia", Mary is the mother of our Lord Jesus.

[Smith]

Bill Hamblin,

It is evident that you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

How is one supposed that by very definition is - Incomprehensible - ????

[johnny]

Smith

How is one supposed that by very definition is - Incomprehensible - ????

And, it appears you are not familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity because it is not defined as "Incomprehensible". ... but this topic is for another thread.

[Bill Hamblin]

Bill HamblinIt is evident that you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

Oh, I understand it perfectly well. That does not, however, mean that I must accept it as either coherent or convincing. (Of course, in reality, most Catholics don't actually understand it.)

At any rate, if you accept the sons of God as present at creation, and the sons of God are God's council, then what is the difficulty of accepting that the divine council was there at creation?

[johnny]

Bill Hamblin,

At any rate, if you accept the sons of God as present at creation, and the sons of God are God's council, then what is the difficulty of accepting that the divine council was there at creation?

The part I don't accept is the part in Mormon scripture which reveals that the divine council formed the heavens and the earth and that the divine council formed man from the dust of the ground (see below).

• The Book of Abraham 5 "The Gods finish their planning of the creation of all things [1] And thus we will finish the heavens and the earth, and all the hosts of them. [2] And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will rest on the seventh time from all our work which we have counseled. [3] And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would rest from all their works which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and sanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth. [4] And the Gods came down and formed these the generations of the heavens and of the earth, when they were formed in the day that the Gods formed the earth and the heavens, [5] According to all that which they had said concerning every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for the Gods had not caused it to rain upon the earth when they counseled to do them, and had not formed a man to till the ground. [6] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. [7] And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the manâ??s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."
  

I don't accept this Mormon teaching of the divine council because it is contrary to what the holy prophets Isaiah and Malachi revealed which reveals that one God created and he was alone and by himself (see below).

• Mal.2 ([10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?)
  
• -
  
• Isa.44 ([6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone ; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself ; )
  

[Bill Hamblin]

Bill Hamblin,

The part I don't accept is the part in Mormon scripture which reveals that the divine council formed the heavens and the earth and that the divine council formed man from the dust of the ground (see below).

• The Book of Abraham 5 "The Gods finish their planning of the creation of all things [1] And thus we will finish the heavens and the earth, and all the hosts of them. [2] And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will rest on the seventh time from all our work which we have counseled. [3] And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would rest from all their works which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and sanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth. [4] And the Gods came down and formed these the generations of the heavens and of the earth, when they were formed in the day that the Gods formed the earth and the heavens, [5] According to all that which they had said concerning every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew; for the Gods had not caused it to rain upon the earth when they counseled to do them, and had not formed a man to till the ground. [6] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. [7] And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the manâ??s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul."
  

I don't accept this Mormon teaching of the divine council because it is contrary to what the holy prophets Isaiah and Malachi revealed which reveals that one God created and he was alone and by himself (see below).

• Mal.2 ([10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?)
  
• -
  
• Isa.44 ([6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone ; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself ; )
  

So, is Christ, the Son of God, part of the divine council of the sons of God?

If an architect designs and builds a building, but he hires a contractor to build the walls, and another to do the electricity, etc, can we still say that the architect alone, built the building?

[johnny]

Bill Hamblin,

So, is Christ, the Son of God, part of the divine council of the sons of God?

Ealier you said you understood the doctrine of the Trinity "perfectly well" ... it is evident you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity ... the answer to your question is no.

If an architect designs and builds a building, but he hires a contractor to build the walls, and another to do the electricity, etc, can we still say that the architect alone, built the building?

The relationship between God and "the Word" is not the same as relationship of a architect and a contractor.

[Ron Beron]

'johnny' writes,

It is not a matter of having it backwards, it is a matter of moving forward. You left off or ignored the important part of the Catholic teaching #292 which says "by the Son and the Spirit". The concept "by his Word" and "by the Son" are separated because "the Word" was in the beginning and at the incarnation "the Word" became "the Son". The concept of the trinity is consistent with both the OT theology and the additional revelation of the NT.

No, I didn't ignore it I simply didn't want to bring another element into it. What you are failing to recognize is that we are probably discussing the same thing in agreement, but using different terminology. Do Mormons believe that the earth and all its inhabitants were created by God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost? Yes. Do we believe they are one in substance? No. Is the Word or Logos of the NT the same as Jesus? Yes. Does that mean He is our Father in Heaven? No. Is there evidence in the OT which teach of a co-creator? Yes. What names does it go by? Hokhma, Wisdom and Sophia to name a few.

I am not proclaiming Mary is "the Great Cosmic Mother or Sophia", Mary is the mother of our Lord Jesus.

You don't have to. The Catholic Church has already done so. They have even compared the Wisdom of the OT with that of Mary.

In Roman Catholic doctrine, Mary, the mother of God, was identified with the figure of the divine Wisdom. To borrow a term used in Christology to describe Jesus as being of the same substance (hypostasis) as the Father, Mary was seen as possessing a divine hypostasis.

Since you are Catholic I can only surmise you accept the doctrine of your church.

[johnny]

Ron Beron

No, I didn't ignore it I simply didn't want to bring another element into it. What you are failing to recognize is that we are probably discussing the same thing in agreement, but using different terminology.

I would say we are discussing very different things but using the same terminology.

Do Mormons believe that the earth and all its inhabitants were created by God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost? Yes. Do we believe they are one in substance? No. Is the Word or Logos of the NT the same as Jesus? Yes. Does that mean He is our Father in Heaven? No. Is there evidence in the OT which teach of a co-creator? Yes. What names does it go by? Hokhma, Wisdom and Sophia to name a few.

One of the difference between you and me is your belief about the substance of the Father, Jesus, and the HG.

You don't have to. The Catholic Church has already done so. They have even compared the Wisdom of the OT with that of Mary.

Comparing Mary to the Wisdom of the OT does not mean she was "Wisdom" before she was born of earthly parents.

Since you are Catholic I can only surmise you accept the doctrine of your church.

I accept the doctrines of the Catholic church.

[Tanyan]

Many non LDS Christians have a very difficult time with the Catholic portrait of Mary see -

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/motherofgod.htm

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/marymother.htm

http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/catholic.htm

Johnny please no more stone casting and looking for motes in Official LDS Doctrine/Thought/Practice/Walk

As I can do the same with Catholicism with the links above. Thank you.

In His Debt/Grace Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.