The Divine Council

[ERMD]

Watching johnny flail around in the face of overwhelming evidence and reason has been actually painful.

[LDSMusic483]

Since when does catholic tradition say there is a divine council? In what way? You admit the scholarship but then retract all concepts associated with a divine council? You are contradicting yourself. Show me any source from the catholic church that admitted the fact of a divine council prior to joseph smith, which was later coraborated by scholarship.

Did you mean to quote me?

[johnny]

kryoung1983,

the concepts of ex nihilo are connected with the divine council since you are implying that God is the only uncreated being who created everything else.

You got a point, ex nihilo is connected with the divine council ...

You are twisting the concept of creation, which is in a divine council setting in the Bible and Jewish tradition to match up your concept of god as the only uncaused cause, a creator-creator relationship that is different from what is understood in the Bible.

The concept of creation I am presenting is consistent with the scripture found in the NAB Bible.

• 2Mac.7 ([22] I cannot tell how ye came into my womb: for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you; [23] But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake. [28] I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.)
  

The hebrew concept of creation is to organize, whether your concept is to create or bring into being, which are two different things.

The organization comes after first day, on the first day God made what He made out of nothing, see ECF writing below:

• Hippolytus "On the first day God made what He made out of nothing. But on the other days He did not make out of nothing, but out of what He had made on the first day, by moulding it according to His pleasure." Six Days Work(Hexameron)(A.D. 217),in ANF,V:163
  

If ex nihilo is wrong, then God is not the only self existant being, which means that we have more credibility for certain concepts associated with the divince council as lds thought understands it.

Ex nihilo is consistent with the scripture of the NAB Bible and with the writings of the early apostolic Christians, see below

• Hermas "First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing." Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  

Joseph Smith said all elements are eternal, (backwards and forwards) and this is connected with the idea that we too are eternal in that sense. Not just God. The Hebrews also understood creation in the context of giving form or reorganization of existing principles as I understand it.

The early Christians would disagree with Joseph Smith that all elements are eternal, according to the ECF Tertullian the elements and spirits were brought forth from nothing.

• Tertullian "The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding word, His arranging wisdom, His mighty power, brought forth from nothing this entire mass of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty; whence also the Greeks have bestowed on it the name of Cosmos." Apology,17:1(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:31
  

Your use of Isaiah just seems to fall on its face when you examine these principles.

Mormon Scripture falls on it face when examined against the words of the prophet Isaiah. My use of Isaiah is consistent with the scripture in the NAB bible and with the writings of the early apostolic Christians.

[johnny]

kryoung1983,

Since when does catholic tradition say there is a divine council? In what way? You admit the scholarship but then retract all concepts associated with a divine council? You are contradicting yourself. Show me any source from the catholic church that admitted the fact of a divine council prior to joseph smith, which was later coraborated by scholarship.

I reject the Mormon concepts of a divine council.

Below are few references to a divine council the Catholic NAB Bible.

NAB Catholic Bible - Psalm 82

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm82.htm#foot1

1 A psalm of Asaph. 1 God rises in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.

5 The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world's foundations shake.

6 I declare: "Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you,

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.

Footnotes

[Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel's God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust "gods" (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8 ) .

[5] The gods are blind and unable to declare what is right. Their misrule shakes earth's foundations (cf Psalm 11:3; 75:4), which God made firm in creation (Psalm 96:10).

[6] I declare: "Gods though you be": in John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called "gods."

8] Judge the earth: according to Deut 32:8-9, Israel's God had originally assigned jurisdiction over the foreign nations to the subordinate deities, keeping Israel as a personal possession. Now God will directly take over the rulership of the whole world.

NAB Catholic Bible - Psalm 89

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm89.htm#foot3

7 Who in the skies ranks with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the gods?

Footnotes

[7] The gods: literally, "the sons of gods," "the holy ones" and "courtiers" of Psalm 89:6, 8. These heavenly spirits are members of God's court.

[LDSMusic483]

kryoung1983,

I reject the Mormon concepts of a divine council.

Below are few references to a divine council the Catholic NAB Bible.

NAB Catholic Bible - Psalm 82

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm82.htm#foot1

1 A psalm of Asaph. 1 God rises in the divine council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods.

5 The gods neither know nor understand, wandering about in darkness, and all the world's foundations shake.

6 I declare: "Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you,

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth, for yours are all the nations.

Footnotes

[Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel's God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust "gods" (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8 ) .

[5] The gods are blind and unable to declare what is right. Their misrule shakes earth's foundations (cf Psalm 11:3; 75:4), which God made firm in creation (Psalm 96:10).

[6] I declare: "Gods though you be": in John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called "gods."

8] Judge the earth: according to Deut 32:8-9, Israel's God had originally assigned jurisdiction over the foreign nations to the subordinate deities, keeping Israel as a personal possession. Now God will directly take over the rulership of the whole world.

NAB Catholic Bible - Psalm 89

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm89.htm#foot3

7 Who in the skies ranks with the LORD? Who is like the LORD among the gods?

Footnotes

[7] The gods: literally, "the sons of gods," "the holy ones" and "courtiers" of Psalm 89:6, 8. These heavenly spirits are members of God's court.

You know...I've realized that what we need to do is start quoting D&C, JST, PoGP and all the such, because Johnny just expects us to take the words of early Catholic leaders and scriptures like Maccabeas into account. He can return us the same consideration.

[johnny]

kryoung1983,

You know...I've realized that what we need to do is start quoting D&C, JST, PoGP and all the such, because Johnny just expects us to take the words of early Catholic leaders and scriptures like Maccabeas into account. He can return us the same consideration.

I am just providing what you asked â?¦ earlier you asked â??Show me any source from the catholic church that admitted the fact of a divine councilâ?

[kryoung1983]

Did you mean to quote me?

Nope. That was on accident.

[kryoung1983]

kryoung1983,

You got a point, ex nihilo is connected with the divine council ...

The concept of creation I am presenting is consistent with the scripture found in the NAB Bible.

• 2Mac.7 ([22] I cannot tell how ye came into my womb: for I neither gave you breath nor life, neither was it I that formed the members of every one of you; [23] But doubtless the Creator of the world, who formed the generation of man, and found out the beginning of all things, will also of his own mercy give you breath and life again, as ye now regard not your own selves for his laws' sake. [28] I beseech thee, my son, look upon the heaven and the earth, and all that is therein, and consider that God made them of things that were not; and so was mankind made likewise.)
  

The organization comes after first day, on the first day God made what He made out of nothing, see ECF writing below:

• Hippolytus "On the first day God made what He made out of nothing. But on the other days He did not make out of nothing, but out of what He had made on the first day, by moulding it according to His pleasure." Six Days Work(Hexameron)(A.D. 217),in ANF,V:163
  

What does it mean to "MOULD" something. does not that refer to an all ready existant matter? I found the perfect response to this on another lds forum.

"The Apostle Peter was quite explicit about his belief in creation from a watery chaos, rather than from nothingness. He wrote, "There were heavens and earth long ago, created by God's word out of water and with water." (2 Peter 3:5 NE The background for this passage is the first two verses of Genesis: "In the beginning of creationâ?¦the earth was without form and void, with darkness over the face of the abyss, and a mighty wind that swept over the surface of the waters." (Genesis 1:1-2 NE David Winston writes that the Rabbis presupposed the same watery chaos. For instance, he notes that Mekilta, Shirta 8 states that "to make a roof man requires wood, stones, dirt, and water, whereas God has made a roof for his world out of water. God's first act of creation thus presupposes the existence of water."62 Similarly, the Sefer Yesira states, "He formed substance from chaos and made it with fire and it exists, and he hewed out great columns from intangible air."63 In the Bereshit Rabba we find, "R. Huna said,â?¦'If it were not written explicitly in Scripture, it would not be possible to say it: God created the heaven and the earth. From the earth was chaos, etc.'"64

However, the interpretation of some of the early texts can be confusing, and indeed, a few seemingly contradict creation from chaos. In the Apocrypha, 2 Maccabees asserts that "God made [the sky and the earth] out of nothing, andâ?¦man comes into being in the same way." (2 Maccabees 7:28 NE On the other hand, the Wisdom of Solomon says, "For thy almighty hand, which created the world out of formless matter, was not without further resource." (Wisdom of Solomon 11:17 NE Paul seemed to imply creation out of nothing: "Godâ?¦summons things that are not yet in existence as if they already were" (Romans 4:17 NE, and yet we saw that Peter's language recalled the Genesis account of creation from a watery chaos. Indeed, in the very same verse Paul wrote that God "fashioned" (Greek katertisthai = "adjusted, put in order again, restored, repaired") the universe, but in such a way that "the visible came forth from the invisible." (Hebrews 11:3 NE The second-century Pastor of Hermas asserted that God "made out of nothing the things that exist,"65 but in another passage clearly presupposed creation from a watery chaos: "By His strong word [He] has fixed the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth upon the waters."66

Gerhard May has convincingly shown that where these early texts say God created out of "nothing" or "non-being", etc., they were using a common ancient idiom to say that "something new, something that was not there before, comes into being; whether this something new comes through a change in something that was already there, or whether it is something absolutely new, is beside the question."67 For instance, the Greek writer Xenophon wrote that parents "bring forth their children out of non-being'.68 Philo of Alexandria wrote that Moses and Plato were in agreement in accepting a pre-existent material, but also that God brings things "out of nothing into being" or "out of non-being".69 Therefore, in view of this common usage, and the many explicit statements by ancient authors regarding the pre-existent matter, we must rule out a belief in creatio ex nihilo unless it is explicitly stated otherwise.

We do not find such explicit statements anywhere until the mid-second century with the Gnostic teacher Basilides and later the Christian apologists Tatian and Theophilus of Antioch."

Ex nihilo is consistent with the scripture of the NAB Bible and with the writings of the early apostolic Christians, see below

• Hermas "First Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing." Shepard,2:1:1(A.D. 80),in ANF,II:20
  PETER DISAGREES.
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "For, to attribute the substance of created things to the power and will of Him who is God of all, is worthy both of credit and acceptance. It is also agreeable [to reason], and there may be well said regarding such a belief, that 'the things which are impossible with men are possible with God.' While men, indeed, cannot make anything out of nothing, but only out of matter already existing, yet God is in this point proeminently superior to men, that He Himself called into being the substance of His creation, when previously it had no existence." Against Heresies,2,10:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:370
  

Once again Peter disagrees.

The early Christians would disagree with Joseph Smith that all elements are eternal, according to the ECF Tertullian the elements and spirits were brought forth from nothing.

• Once again Peter among others, disagrees.
  
• Tertullian "The object of our worship is the One God, He who by His commanding word, His arranging wisdom, His mighty power, brought forth from nothing this entire mass of our world, with all its array of elements, bodies, spirits, for the glory of His majesty; whence also the Greeks have bestowed on it the name of Cosmos." Apology,17:1(A.D. 197),in ANF,III:31
  

Mormon Scripture falls on it face when examined against the words of the prophet Isaiah. My use of Isaiah is consistent with the scripture in the NAB bible and with the writings of the early apostolic Christians.

Once again Peter disiagrees. Also many scholars disagree, including Peter Hayman, and Jon Levenson of Harvard.

[LDSMusic483]

kryoung1983,

I am just providing what you asked â?¦ earlier you asked â??Show me any source from the catholic church that admitted the fact of a divine councilâ?

It wasn't just when asked that you rely heavily on your Catholic sources.

[kryoung1983]

kryoung1983,

I am just providing what you asked â?¦ earlier you asked â??Show me any source from the catholic church that admitted the fact of a divine councilâ?

I said evidence PRIOR to Joseph Smith of the catholic church accepting a divine council of gods.

[johnny]

kryoung1983 ,

Once again Peter disiagrees. Also many scholars disagree, including Peter Hayman, and Jon Levenson of Harvard.

Many Biblical scholars would agree with what I have presented â?¦

I said evidence PRIOR to Joseph Smith of the catholic church accepting a divine council of gods.

The Catholic evidence goes back to the early Church Fatherâ??s, below are some:

"In reply I said to her, 'This is magnificent and marvellous. But who are the six young men who are engaged in building?' And she said, 'These are the holy angels of God, who were first created, and to whom the Lord handed over His whole creation, that they might increase and build up and rule over the whole creation. By these will the building of the tower be finished.' 'But who are the other persons who are engaged in carrying the stones?' These also are holy angels of the Lord, but the former six are more excellent than these."

Shephard of Hermas,Vision 3:4(A.D. 140),in ANF,II:14

"For His offspring and His similitude do minister to Him in every respect; that is, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject. Vain, therefore, ark those who, because of that declaration, 'No man knoweth the Father, but the Son,' do introduce another unknown Father."

Irenaeus,Against Heresies,IV,7:4(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:470

"The word of God clearly declares that the Angels were neither created after the stars nor before heaven and earth. It must be regarded as certain and unshakable the opinion that says: None of the created things did exist before heaven and earth, because 'in the beginning God created heaven and earth' so that this was the beginning of all creation, before which none of the created things existed."

Epiphanius,Panarion,65:5(A.D. 377), in PAN

[kryoung1983]

You said many scholars disagree. I would admit that some might though it would be a fighting battle. Peter alludes to premordial chaos, and creation with water, and that water existed prior to the physical creation. As far as your quotes it alludes to angels, but nothing that can really see to be a 'divine council' in the sense that it is used in urgaritic texts or the old testament.

[johnny]

kryoung1983

You said many scholars disagree. I would admit that some might though it would be a fighting battle. Peter alludes to premordial chaos, and creation with water, and that water existed prior to the physical creation.

Is Peter alluding to the time after or before the first day of creation?

As far as your quotes it alludes to angels, but nothing that can really see to be a 'divine council' in the sense that it is used in urgaritic texts or the old testament.

The quotes are consistent with the 'divine council' revealed in the old testament. The quotes speak of angels who serve and angels whom God hands over the creation.

[Ron Beron]

Ron Beron,

So we don't go off-topic I will simply say "the Word" IS NOT a created angel like Satan. For more discussion go to the following link. My view of "the Word" is the same as the second century bishop Irenaeus, see below.

The Logos

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09328a.htm

• Irenaeus "It was not angels, therefore, who made us nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor anyone else. . . . For God did not stand in need of these in order to accomplish what he had himself determined with himself beforehand should be done, as if he did not possess his own hands. For with him [the Father] were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, he made all things, to whom also he speaks, saying, 'Let us make man in our image and likeness' [Gen. 1:26]" (Against Heresies 4:20:1 [A.D. 189].
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "The Son, though, always co-existing with the Father, of old and from the beginning, always reveals the Father to the angels and archangels and powers and virtues and to all to whom God wishes to give revelation" (ibid. 2:30:9). "The various heretical gnostics transform the generation of the uttered word of men to the eternal Word of God, attributing to him a beginning of utterance and a coming into being in a manner like that of their own word. In what manner, then, would the Word of God--indeed, the great God himself, since he is the Word--differ from the word of men, were he to have the same order and process of generation?" (Against Heresies 2:13:8 [A.D. 180-
  
• -
  
• Irenaeus "Of his own accord and by his own power he made all things and arranged and perfected them, and his will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God; he alone is omnipotent, who made all things; he alone is Father, who founded and formed all things, visible and invisible, sensible and insensate, heavenly and earthly, by the Word of his power. And he has fitted and arranged all things by his wisdom; and while he comprehends all, he can be comprehended by none. He is himself the designer, himself the builder, himself the inventor, himself the maker, himself the Lord of all" (ibid., 2:30:9).
  

Irenaeus wasn't quoted in that section of the Catholic Encyclopedia. In fact, the following is mentioned in contradiction to your assumption.

The Apostolic Fathers do not touch on the theology of the Logos; a short notice occurs in St. Ignatius only (Ad Magn. viii, 2). The Apologists, on the contrary, develop it, partly owing to their philosophic training, but more particularly to their desire to state their faith in a way familiar to their readers (St. Justin, for example, insists strongly on the theology of the Logos in his "Apology" meant for heathens, much less so in his "Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon"). This anxiety to adapt apologetic discussion to the circumstances of their hearers had its dangers, since it was possible that in this way the apologists might land well inside the lines of their adversaries.

As to the capital question of the generation of the Word, the orthodoxy of the Apologists is irreproachable: the Word was not created, as the Arians held later, but was born of the very Substance of the Father according to the later definition of Nicaea (Justin, "Dial.",128, Tatian, "Or.", v, Athenagoras, "Legat." x-xviii, Theophilus, "Ad Autolyc.", II, x; Tertullian "Adv. Prax.", vii). Their theology is less satisfactory as regards the eternity of this generation and its necessity; in fact, they represent the Word as uttered by the Father when the Father wished to create and in view of this creation (Justin, "II Apol.", 6; cf. "Dial.",6162; Tatian, "Or.", v, a corrupt and doubtful text; Athenagoras, "Legat.", x; Theophilus, "Ad Autolyc.", II, xxii; Tertullian, "Adv. Prax.", v-vii). When we seek to understand what they meant by this "utterance", it is difficult to give the same answer for all Athenagoras seems to mean the role of the Son in the work of creation, the syncatabasis of the Nicene Fathers (Newman, "Causes of the Rise and Successes of Arianism" in "Tracts Theological and Ecclesiastical", London, 1902, 238), others, especially Theophilus and Tertullian (cf. Novatian, "De Trinit.", xxxi), seem quite certainly to understand this "utterance" as properly so called. Mental survivals of Stoic psychology seem to be responsible for this attitude: the philosophers of the Portico distinguished between the innate word (endiathetos) and the uttered word (prophorikos) bearing in mind this distinction the aforesaid apologists conceived a development in the Word of God after the same fashion. After this period, St. Iren

[johnny]

Ron Beron

Irenaeus wasn't quoted in that section of the Catholic Encyclopedia. In fact, the following is mentioned in contradiction to your assumption.

The quotes were separate from the link I provided, sorry about any confusion. I would disagree that the bolded words are in contradiction with what I have presented but I hesitate to say more because I think that will side track the topic of this thread.

[Ron Beron]

Ron Beron

The quotes were separate from the link I provided, sorry about any confusion. I would disagree that the bolded words are in contradiction with what I have presented but I hesitate to say more because I think that will side track the topic of this thread.

Not at all since the topic of this thread is the Divine Council for which I and others have argued that the Logos was part of said Council in the form of Jesus. Further, I think it is more than germane when the quotes offered argue for a created member of the Divine Council in the guise of Logos, aka Jesus. Therefore, Jesus was created by the Father.

[johnny]

Ron Beron

Not at all since the topic of this thread is the Divine Council for which I and others have argued that the Logos was part of said Council in the form of Jesus.

The Logos was NOT an angel who was part of the heavenly divine council. The Logos did not have the nature of an angel. Before the incarnation the Logos did not do the Lord's commandments like angels. The Logos is the word of the Lord. The Logos proceeded forth and came from God. The Logos became flesh and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men.

Further, I think it is more than germane when the quotes offered argue for a created member of the Divine Council in the guise of Logos, aka Jesus.

Logos was NOT a created angel. Through the Logos the Lord created all the angels in heaven. The Logos is the power of God and the wisdom of God. The Lord commanded and the all the angels were created. The Lord made the earth by his power and he established the world by his wisdom..

Therefore, Jesus was created by the Father.

The Logos is NOT created by the Father. The Logos was before all things. The Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. God is everlasting to everlasting.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Johnny,

LDSMusic483

Satan was "sons of God", Satan is a spirit who does not have physical mortal body. Paul, who is spirit and body, says "we" are the offspring of God. See verses below.

• Job.2 ([1] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. [7] So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. )
  
• -
  
• Acts.17 ([24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; [25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device)
  

This is incorrect. The book of Job does not identify Satan as one of the "Sons of God." The KJV is a mistranslation.

best,

--DB

[johnny]

David Bokovoy

This is incorrect. The book of Job does not identify Satan as one of the "Sons of God." The KJV is a mistranslation.

My point is that Satan is a son of God, Satan was an angel created with a command by the Lord. Satan is also called a god.

[kryoung1983]

Ron Beron

The Logos was NOT an angel who was part of the heavenly divine council. The Logos did not have the nature of an angel.

"Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father." Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel 1:5, 2 vols., translated by W.J. Ferrar (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1920)

[johnny]

kryoung1983

"Remember how Moses calls the Being, Who appeared to the patriarchs, and often delivered to them the oracles afterwards written down in Scripture sometimes God and Lord, and sometimes the Angel of the Lord. He clearly implies that this was not the Omnipotent God, but a secondary Being, rightly called the God and Lord of holy men, but the Angel of the Most High His Father." Eusebius, The Proof of the Gospel 1:5, 2 vols., translated by W.J. Ferrar (New York: The Macmillan Company, 1920)

The "Angel of the Lord" is not Logos. The Logos does not have the nature of an angel. The "angel of the Lord" is an angel of his presence, for the Lord's name is in him.

[David Bokovoy]

David Bokovoy

My point is that Satan is a son of God, Satan was an angel created with a command by the Lord. Satan is also called a god.

Great, as long as you understand that you were incorrect in suggesting that Satan is one of the Sons of God in the book of Job. He is not.

[kryoung1983]

kryoung1983

The "Angel of the Lord" is not Logos. The Logos does not have the nature of an angel. The "angel of the Lord" is an angel of his presence, for the Lord's name is in him.

This is like banging your head against a wall.

[johnny]

David Bokovoy

Great, as long as you understand that you were incorrect in suggesting that Satan is one of the Sons of God in the book of Job. He is not.

I was correct though in suggesting that Satan is a son of God. I am also correct in suggesting that Satan is an angel created with a command by the Lord.

Satan and Jesus were not born of a heavenly parents. The Logo's was not an angel created by God before the incarnation.

Jesus was not a member of the divine heavenly council.

[kryoung1983]

Great, as long as you understand that you were incorrect in suggesting that Satan is one of the Sons of God in the book of Job. He is not.

Hey David could you go into some of the different translations on the verse you are addressing in Job. It would be much appreciated.