The Divine Council

[johnny]

LDSMusic483,

Ah yes...but Bishops aren't appointed by the Holy Ghost. They are ordained and appointed by those who have received the authority of God by the laying on of hands. By the second century the apostles were gone. I'll give you some help on this one. Irenaeus was expounding his own opinion which can't be considered doctrine since it didn't come from the Pope.

Bishops are ordained and appointed, they are made overseers by the Holy Ghost. Bishops have the authority to ordain other elders. Irenaeus was an ordained bishop with the authority to teach.

[Rommelator]

Irenaeus was an ordained bishop with the authority to teach.

But what happens when the teachings of Irenaeus run contrary to the previous revelations of God as recorded in the Hebrew Bible?

Furthermore, what happens when Irenaeus contradicts what the original Hebrew texts say?

[LDSMusic483]

Rommelator

Read the other verses it says they saw the glory of God.

And on top of that, when they "saw the glory of the Lord" it was on top of the Mt. The Mountain was covered with the cloud. So, if you have someone who defies all glory and brightness, and you cover the place He is at with a cloud...you might just see His glory, or the brilliance that goes through the cloud.

[johnny]

Rommelator

Gladly. See the links I provided.

I prefer you present the information on the thread so we both know what you are referring too ... thanks.

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483,

Bishops are ordained and appointed, they are made overseers by the Holy Ghost. Bishops have the authority to ordain other elders. Irenaeus was an ordained bishop with the authority to teach.

and...who ordained him?

[Rommelator]

I prefer you present the information on the thread so we both know what you are referring too ... thanks

That would be tedious for me. I don't want to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I shall present the following instead.

Can Men See God?

http://en.fairmormon.org/No_man_has_seen_God

Does God have a Body?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Corporeality_of_God

Does God have a Gender?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?showtopic=37448

As you will see, these links provide evidence from both the Scriptures and modern scholarship, a win-win combination.

[johnny]

Rommelator

Context is everything. Mark Smith has shown that the verses that denote that Moses and the elders of Israel simply saw the glory of God are most likely late interpolations by the Deuteronomist Reformers in order to combat the strong anthropomorphic themes on the Hebrew Bible.

Modern revelation is also helpful, the modern revelation of the New Testament reveals that Jesus tells us that no man hath seen God at any time, Jesus says God dwells in us.

God the Father is above all, and through all, and in you all. God has no form. The heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him. He fills heaven and earth. A house cannot be built for God the Father.

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

So...all that means is they saw HIM and His glory. You can't delete a meaning of a scripture by adding to it.

See my earlier post, we have the words of Jesus to clarify the meaning, Jesus tells us that no man hath seen God at any time.

[Rommelator]

Modern revelation is also helpful, the modern revelation of the New Testament reveals that Jesus tells us that no man hath seen God at any time

1. CFR!

1. How can you think that the New Testament is "modern revelation"? The New Testament was written nearly 2000 years ago?

God has no form

This contradicts scripture.

A house cannot be built for God the Father.

Tell that to King Solomon.

[johnny]

Rommelator

But what happens when the teachings of Irenaeus run contrary to the previous revelations of God as recorded in the Hebrew Bible?

Furthermore, what happens when Irenaeus contradicts what the original Hebrew texts say?

The teachings of Iraeneus are consistent with Exod 33:20 which says "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." and the words of Jesus who says "No man hath seen God at any time".

[Rommelator]

The teachings of Iraeneus are consistent with Exod 33:20 which says "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Let us see what Iraeneus said about this, shall we?

â??For no man hath seen God at any time, unless the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]."

Did you catch the qualifier "unless"? This is consistant with what Joseph Smith taught:

"No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son."

Seriously, johnny, do you ingore my links on purpose or do you need glasses or something?

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483

See my earlier post, we have the words of Jesus to clarify the meaning, Jesus tells us that no man hath seen God at any time.

John 6: 46

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath aseen the Father.

3 Jn. 1: 11

11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth agood is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Maybe some revelation that John received was clarifying Jesus' teachings. He did write these after Jesus was teaching after all, so it was more recent modern revelation.

[johnny]

Rommelator

That would be tedious for me. I don't want to reinvent the wheel. Therefore, I shall present the following instead.

I will present the words of holy scripture,

Can Men See God?

• 1John.4 ([12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.)
  

Does God have a Body?

• 1Kgs.8 ([27] But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?)
  

Does God have a Gender?

• Eph.4 ([6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.)
  

[LDSMusic483]

RommelatorThe teachings of Iraeneus are consistent with Exod 33:20 which says "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." and the words of Jesus who says "No man hath seen God at any time".

I'll take the teachings of Jacob:Gen. 32: 30 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

I'll take the teachings of Jacob:Gen. 32: 30 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Well I guess that settles that God does have that head on the body I was talking about before.

[johnny]

Rommelator

1. CFR!

Below is the reference,

1John.4 ([12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.)

1. How can you think that the New Testament is "modern revelation"? The New Testament was written nearly 2000 years ago?

"modern revelation" in comparison to the revelation of the Old Testament.

>God has no form

This contradicts scripture.

Completely consistent with scripture, see below

Eph.4 ([6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.)

1Kgs.8 ([27] But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?)

Tell that to King Solomon.

But it cannot contain God ...

[Rommelator]

Sign.

I should have seen this coming. No matter how hard I try, I will not get anywhere with this now pointless debate. It is like fighting against a brick wall.

I have now lost all interested.

Have a nice day everyone!

[johnny]

Rommelator

Did you catch the qualifier "unless"? This is consistant with what Joseph Smith taught:

Did you miss the words of Jesus, he decalared

1John.4 ([12] No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.)

Seriously, johnny, do you ingore my links on purpose or do you need glasses or something?

Why do you keep ignoring the words of Jesus in 1John 4:12?

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

Maybe some revelation that John received was clarifying Jesus' teachings. He did write these after Jesus was teaching after all, so it was more recent modern revelation.

Does not say what he "seen" ... maybe he saw the glory of God.

I'll take the teachings of Jacob:Gen. 32: 30 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

I'll take the teachings of Jesus ... Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time."

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483Does not say what he "seen" ... maybe he saw the glory of God.

In math...1+1=2. Jacob said he saw God face to face and he survived. Hebrews teaches that Jesus was made in His express likeness and image. Sonds like a look a like to me. I submit that the scriptures you re quoting are incomplete and further revelation has clarified them.

LDSMusic483Does not say what he "seen" ... maybe he saw the glory of God.LDSMusic483I'll take the teachings of Jesus ... Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time."LDSMusic483I'll take the teachings of Jesus ... Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time. "

Jacob must have been a drunk then or hallucinating. Just one of the plain and precious truths that were lost.

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

In math...1+1=2. Jacob said he saw God face to face and he survived. Hebrews teaches that Jesus was made in His express likeness and image. Sonds like a look a like to me. I submit that the scriptures you re quoting are incomplete and further revelation has clarified them.

I submit that we know that "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Jacob must have been a drunk then or hallucinating. Just one of the plain and precious truths that were lost.

Good thing Jesus cleared it up ... Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time. "

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483

I submit that we know that "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

Good thing Jesus cleared it up ... Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time. "

well good for you johnny...you continue in your belief and never see God. And I'll continue in mine.

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

well good for you johnny...you continue in your belief and never see God. And I'll continue in mine.

I will continue to believe the words of Jesus ... you know what Jesus said, Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time. "

[Rommelator]

Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time. "

Just so ya know, it is John that wrote this, not Jesus.

[johnny]

Rommelator

Just so ya know, it is John that wrote this, not Jesus.

Do want to know whose word it is ... it is the word of God ... it is inspired scripture.

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483I will continue to believe the words of Jesus ... you know what Jesus said, Jesus said "No man hath seen God at any time. "

You know, you've said that about a dozen times...yet you keep quoting John on it. So get it right. JOHN said. It was John who said no man hath seen him, and it was John who quoted Jesus then saying that you could see God if you were of God.

RommelatorDo want to know whose word it is ... it is the word of God ... it is inspired scripture.

I'll take the words of Jesus...He said:John 6: 46 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.