The Divine Council

[Sargon]

Sargon

I would agree that their is a divine council. My point is that this divine council did not form the heavens and the earth and this divine council did not form man like Mormon scripture reveals, see below.

Well Johnny, once we agree that there was a divine council, and that this divine council existed prior to the creation of mortal man, all we have to do from here is read Gen 1:26.

[johnny]

Sargon,

Johnny, why are you at odds with Mark Smith, William Dever, Raphael Patai, Michael Heiser, Margaret Barker, John Day, and the rest of the academic community on this question?

What question are you referring to ... do those listed above believe Mormon scripture when it reveals that a divine council made up of "sons of God" or angels formed man?

I am consistent with Holy Scripture and with the Catholic academic community.

[johnny]

kryoung1983,

Jon levenson, a professor of Judaism at Harvard Divinity school said,

"Not a trace of theogonomy can be foudn in teh Hebrew Bible. God has no nativity. But there do seem to be other divine beings in Genesis 1, to whom God prposes the creation of humanity, male and female; 'let us make man in our image, after our likeness' (vs 26) When were these otehr divine beings created? They too seem to hae been primordial...from the biblical accounts of the divine assembly in session, it would appear that these 'sons of God/gods' played an active role and made fresh proposals to God, who nonetheless had the final say"

It appears this professor of Judaism does not have the modern revelation of the New testament which reveals "the Word was with God, and the Word was God" since he refers to "other divine beings" and "sons of God/gods".

[Sargon]

Sargon,

What question are you referring to ... do those listed above believe Mormon scripture when it reveals that a divine council made up of "sons of God" or angels formed man?

I am consistent with Holy Scripture and with the Catholic academic community.

I was arguing for the concept of the "divine council," the concept that Joseph Smith got right and that I believed you were contesting. If you want to pick at details like who created who, I refer to my last post.

[Sargon]

Sargon

I am not denying Mormonâ??s this opportunity, it not a matter of a double standard. It is a matter that modern Mormon revelation is contrary to both the OT and the NT texts.

So says Johnny. I'm sure you are aware that Jews make the case that the NT is contrary to the revelation given in the OT. This argument you are making just won't work.

http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/07/...f-anti-mormons/

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483

Satan was "sons of God", Satan is a spirit who does not have physical mortal body. Paul, who is spirit and body, says "we" are the offspring of God. See verses below.

• Job.2 ([1] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. [7] So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. )
  
• -
  
• Acts.17 ([24] God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; [25] Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device)
  

No, I have no clue how you can completely misconstrue the scriptures. Satan was Satan. The sons of God came to present themselves before God, Satan also came among them. That in no way correlates that he WAS them, but points to him being separate.

[johnny]

Sargon,

Well Johnny, once we agree that there was a divine council, and that this divine council existed prior to the creation of mortal man, all we have to do from here is read Gen 1:26.

You might also want read the prophet Isaiah and Malachi because they reveal,

• Isa.44 ([6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; )
  
• -
  
• Mal.2 ([10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?)
  

You might also want read the apostle John because he reveals how it is "one God" and how he is "alone" and "by myself",

• John 1 ([1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. )
  

[johnny]

Sargon,

I was arguing for the concept of the "divine council," the concept that Joseph Smith got right and that I believed you were contesting. If you want to pick at details like who created who, I refer to my last post.

The detail of who created as revealed by the Bible is that "one God" created ... the detail of Mormon scripture is that many Gods created and that God was not alone and by himself as the Bible reveals.

[LDSMusic483]

No, I have no clue how you can completely misconstrue the scriptures. Satan was Satan. The sons of God came to present themselves before God, Satan also came among them. That in no way correlates that he WAS them, but points to him being separate.

And on top of that, it sounds as though you are saying that to be the "offspring of God" you must be spirit and body? Or is it because of having flesh and body that qualifies one as offspring of God? If that were the case, only Christ would qualify.

[johnny]

Sargon

So says Johnny. I'm sure you are aware that Jews make the case that the NT is contrary to the revelation given in the OT. This argument you are making just won't work.

Please make the argument how Mormon scripture is not contrary to the OT.

- Mormon scripture reveals many Gods created and that God was not alone and by himself.

- the OT reveals one God created and God was alone and by himself.

[Sargon]

Sargon,

You might also want read the prophet Isaiah and Malachi because they reveal,

• Isa.44 ([6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; )
  
• -
  
• Mal.2 ([10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?)
  

You might also want read the apostle John because he reveals how it is "one God" and how he is "alone" and "by myself",

• John 1 ([1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. )
  

Since you have heard all of our arguments before, and since prior experience tells me it would be a waste of time to debate you (like pounding your head against a wall), I will not entertain you by re-hashing old debates. We believe our interpretation of scripture is superior. You believe yours is. We are past the point of converting one another.

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

No, I have no clue how you can completely misconstrue the scriptures. Satan was Satan. The sons of God came to present themselves before God, Satan also came among them. That in no way correlates that he WAS them, but points to him being separate.

Are you saying that Satan is not a son of God?

[LDSMusic483]

Sargon,

The detail of who created as revealed by the Bible is that "one God" created ... the detail of Mormon scripture is that many Gods created and that God was not alone and by himself as the Bible reveals.

You need a lesson in divine investiture and God relegating His authority. If God allows someone to use His power and authority to help in the creation, it is still God doing the creating, because it is His power that accomplishes it. The Glory and acknowledgement still goes to Him. God accomplishes His work through the hands of His children many times. When the lame man was healed, was it by Peter and John, or by God?

[Sargon]

Sargon

Please make the argument how Mormon scripture is not contrary to the OT.

- Mormon scripture reveals many Gods created and that God was not alone and by himself.

- the OT reveals one God created and God was alone and by himself.

Gen 1: 26 Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Since you agree that there was a divine council, and that multiple divine beings co-existed in the heavens at the time the Earth was formed, who was God speaking to? What instructions was he giving them?

[LDSMusic483]

LDSMusic483

Are you saying that Satan is not a son of God?

Big difference...is Satan a son of God? Yes...but he is not "sons of God" they were seperate from Him.

[johnny]

LDSMusic483

You need a lesson in divine investiture and God relegating His authority. If God allows someone to use His power and authority to help in the creation, it is still God doing the creating, because it is His power that accomplishes it. The Glory and acknowledgement still goes to Him. God accomplishes His work through the hands of His children many times. When the lame man was healed, was it by Peter and John, or by God

You need a lesson in understanding what "alone" and "by myself" mean, the prophet Isaiah reveals:

• Isa.44 ([6] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. [8] Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. [24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; )
  

[LDSMusic483]

Gen 1: 26 Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Since you agree that there was a divine council, and that multiple divine beings co-existed in the heavens at the time the Earth was formed, who was God speaking to? What instructions was he giving them?

you meant "don't agree" right?

[johnny]

Sargon

Gen 1: 26 Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

Since you agree that there was a divine council, and that multiple divine beings co-existed in the heavens at the time the Earth was formed, who was God speaking to? What instructions was he giving them?

The "us" is "the Word", the apostle John reveals,

• John 1 ([1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. )
  

[LDSMusic483]

Sargon

The "us" is "the Word", the apostle John reveals,

• John 1 ([1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. )
  

Actually I think if the "us" was the "Word" then John would have said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was the us with God, and the Word was God.

I'm like Sargon though...we believe we're right and we have most scholars on our side I might add. You believe you're right and have the catholic scholars on yours. No point in butting heads anymore. I'm out.

[urroner]

Sargon

Please make the argument how Mormon scripture is not contrary to the OT.

- Mormon scripture reveals many Gods created and that God was not alone and by himself.

- the OT reveals one God created and God was alone and by himself.

Johnny, you are asking us to prove a negative?

BTW, plenty of evidence has been shown to you that your last statement is false, but you have merely dismissed it with a wave of the hand, simply saying that it's false.

BTW, the Jews of the OT, according to you statements would say that your beliefs are heretical since there is nowhere in the OT that talks about a Trinity.

[Ron Beron]

My statement is consistent with OT record (see below). You have not presented anything that reveals a divine council formed the earth or formed man like Mormon scripture reveals.

• Neh.9 ( [5] Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever: and blessed be thy glorious name, which is exalted above all blessing and praise. [6] Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee. )
  

Then how would you explain the following...

• "He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion." Jer. 10:12
  

Wisdom is read Hokhma and is an entirely different creation not homoousian with God. Again...

• "O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches." Ps. 104:24
  

• "The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens." Prov. 3:19
  

In Proverbs as well Wisdom or Hokhma is related to a feminine component of God.

• Proverbs 8:22,23The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
  

Further...

• Prov. 8:27-30 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;"
  

Philo goes on to discuss this more fully...

• "Wisdom is older than the creation...of the whole universe." Philo, On the Virtues 62
  

• "And who is to be considered the daughter of God but Wisdom, who is the firstborn mother of all things." Philo, Questions in Genesis 4:97
  

We are not arguing that God is the Great Creator, but that there is a divine council in heaven. Even your own church recognizes this. Further it is also somewhat evident that the ancient Jews felt there was an additional deity who assisted. Some in their Christological views have seen Jesus as this hokhma.

[johnny]

urroner

BTW, plenty of evidence has been shown to you that your last statement is false, but you have merely dismissed it with a wave of the hand, simply saying that it's false.

Clearly no one has shown any Biblical evidence have shown that my last statement is false.

[urroner]

urroner

Clearly no one has shown any Biblical evidence have shown that my last statement is false.

Okay, in your mind, nobody has, but you have yet to demonstrate that your last statement is true, other than you simply declaring that it is so.

[kryoung1983]

Sargon,

The detail of who created as revealed by the Bible is that "one God" created ... the detail of Mormon scripture is that many Gods created and that God was not alone and by himself as the Bible reveals.

And you stil don't understand the hebrew conotations of creation, which is to organize chaotic matter. The world is 'without form' its about unorganized matter. Once again what do you mean by 'create'.

[johnny]

Ron Beron,

Then how would you explain the following...

I would explain it by saying that "wisdom" is a not created being like those in the divine council.

Wisdom is read Hokhma and is an entirely different creation not homoousian with God. Again...

Wisdom is not "an entirely different creation", the prophet Jeremiah says "by his wisdom"

• Jer.10:10-16 (the LORD is the true God, he is the living God ... He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens ... The LORD of hosts is his name.)
  

In Proverbs as well Wisdom or Hokhma is related to a feminine component of God.

Proverbs also tells us wisdom dwelled with prudence (Prov 8:12).

We are not arguing that God is the Great Creator, but that there is a divine council in heaven. Even your own church recognizes this. Further it is also somewhat evident that the ancient Jews felt there was an additional deity who assisted. Some in their Christological views have seen Jesus as this hokhma.

I would agree that there is divine council in heaven. The New Testament sees Christ as,

• 1Cor 1 ([24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.)