New Book Published by FAIR

[justamere10]

At the risk of appearing presumptuous, I direct MA&D participants to the new book, "Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt," published by FAIR & distributed by Deseret Book. See http://www.ShakenFaithSyndrome.com

Mike

Your book arrived but it's in the queue. :-)

I'm looking forward to getting to it.

[Rommelator]

I just finished it, and greatly enjoyed it. Your discussions on the Book of Abraham and the Temple & Freemasonry were my two favorite parts. Great job, Mike!

[consiglieri]

Okay, okay!

Enough with the self-promotion.

I just broke down and bought a copy.

Everybody can go home now.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[ldsquest]

Hello Mike,

Chapter 6 was thought provoking - it mostly dealt with archaeology.

You may wish to review some of what you wrote. I'll add a few comments.

"Long before DNA science, many LDS scholars theorized that the Book of Mormon peoples

intermixed with a larger pre-existing Native American population. Within the context of this

theory, it is entirely possible that Lehite (or Mulekite) DNA became extinct from the

Americas" (page 53).

a] From reading the Book of Mormon, one gets a feel that Lehi and company went to some

unpopulated land in some kind of barges or canoe like vessels. I would have expected

admonition from God to refrain from following the false gods of the Native American

population.

b] You may also wish to indicate the other DNA that may have become extinct. Besides Lehi

and Mulek, you have the DNA from the sons and daughters of Ishmael, then you have those

who came over with Mulek, and then you have the servant Zoram of the slain Laban.

"How, exactly, would an archaeologist distinguish a Christian-owned pot from that of a non-

Christian? What would a Christian pot look like? If fifteen hundred years from now, archaeology

dug up dishes, tools, appliances, and cars (generally the types of things that would survive)

from a house in Salt Lake City, how would they know if the owner was LDS?" (page 59).

I agree with this point. It is very good.

Let's reword it a little to fit the Book of Mormon context.

"How, exactly, would an archaeologist determine that Nephites lived on the American continent?

And if they did, how exactly would this archaeologist distinguish a Nephite-owned pot from that

a Native American-pot? What would a Nephite pot look like? If fifteen hundred years from now,

archaeology dug up tools, appliances, iron refineries, cement factories and ship building yards

(generally the types of things that would survive) from the Americas, how would they know if the

owner was a Nephite, Lamanite, or Native American?"

Everything was apparently going well until you make two incorrect assumptions near the end of

the chapter.

"It is also worth noting that there is a growing body of evidence from New World Archaeology that

supports the Book of Mormon" (page 67). "As things stand at the moment, current New World

Archaeology evidence tends to verify the claims made by the Book of Mormon."

Well ... no.

Archaeology has not even verified that the Jaredites / Nephites / Mulekites were ever on the

American continent? Once that feat is accomplished, then they will need to show, as you investigate

on page 59, that any discovered artifacts belonged to the Book of Mormon people and not to the Native

American people.

Nevertheless, this lack of evidence has not stopped the artwork from appearing in the Book of

Mormon or in plays such as the Manti Pageant. As you stated on page 44 - "More than a few Latter-day

Saints, however, have read into these artworks what they hoped to see".

Likewise, Latter-day Saints have looked into some archaeological artifacts and saw what they hoped

to see.

Irregardless of whether archaeology finds something in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon, in the

end it will all be a matter of faith.

These are some of my thoughts.

Despite my disagreeing with you in some areas, I think your book is an easy read and it is not boring -

it keeps you wanting to read the next chapter.

Regards,

Pete

[MAsh]

Hello Mike,

Chapter 6 was thought provoking - it mostly dealt with archaeology.

You may wish to review some of what you wrote. I'll add a few comments.

"Long before DNA science, many LDS scholars theorized that the Book of Mormon peoples

intermixed with a larger pre-existing Native American population. Within the context of this

theory, it is entirely possible that Lehite (or Mulekite) DNA became extinct from the

Americas" (page 53).

a] From reading the Book of Mormon, one gets a feel that Lehi and company went to some

unpopulated land in some kind of barges or canoe like vessels. I would have expected

admonition from God to refrain from following the false gods of the Native American

population.

Thanks for your comments. I discuss "others" in the BoM in Chapter 18

b] You may also wish to indicate the other DNA that may have become extinct. Besides Lehi

and Mulek, you have the DNA from the sons and daughters of Ishmael, then you have those

who came over with Mulek, and then you have the servant Zoram of the slain Laban.

Although I don't go into details about the DNA of non-Lehi foreigners, I do tackle the DNA issue in Chapter 15.

Everything was apparently going well until you make two incorrect assumptions near the end of

the chapter.

"It is also worth noting that there is a growing body of evidence from New World Archaeology that

supports the Book of Mormon" (page 67). "As things stand at the moment, current New World

Archaeology evidence tends to verify the claims made by the Book of Mormon."

Well ... no.

Archaeology has not even verified that the Jaredites / Nephites / Mulekites were ever on the

American continent? Once that feat is accomplished, then they will need to show, as you investigate

on page 59, that any discovered artifacts belonged to the Book of Mormon people and not to the Native

American people.

Nevertheless, this lack of evidence has not stopped the artwork from appearing in the Book of

Mormon or in plays such as the Manti Pageant. As you stated on page 44 - "More than a few Latter-day

Saints, however, have read into these artworks what they hoped to see".

Likewise, Latter-day Saints have looked into some archaeological artifacts and saw what they hoped

to see.

Well, perhaps I could have phrased that sentence a little differently. The point was that-- according to Dr. John Clark's list-- most of those things mentioned in the BoM were not known to exist in the Americans in 1830. Today, most of those things listed are known to have existed in ancient America. Therefore, the things listed in the BoM have been verified by archaeology.

Irregardless of whether archaeology finds something in the Bible or in the Book of Mormon, in the

end it will all be a matter of faith.

These are some of my thoughts.

Despite my disagreeing with you in some areas, I think your book is an easy read and it is not boring -

it keeps you wanting to read the next chapter.

Regards,

Pete

Thanks again & I agree that "faith" is necessary to determine the truth of scripture.

Mike

[e=mc2]

I honestly can't think of any other way to approach the archaeological enterprise in Mesoamerica than what MAsh has done. It *is* important to make lists of things that are in the BofM but NOT found archaeologically. Equally as important is to do what MAsh has done, list those items which *have* been found and is now understood as being in Mesoamerican contexts and interpretations. Is there any other or better way?

[MAsh]

I honestly can't think of any other way to approach the archaeological enterprise in Mesoamerica than what MAsh has done. It *is* important to make lists of things that are in the BofM but NOT found archaeologically. Equally as important is to do what MAsh has done, list those items which *have* been found and is now understood as being in Mesoamerican contexts and interpretations. Is there any other or better way?

This is exactly right. On another message board some are complaining about my comment (both in my book & here) on the BoM & Mesoamerican archaeology. In context of my book's chapter, however, I stand by my comment.

As I point out in Chap. 6 we don't have a lot of info in order to tell if there were Nephites in Mesoamerica. There are few inscriptions. There isn't enough readable material to tell us to whom the artifacts belonged. Archaeology looks at the artifacts. Based on those things that archaeology can examine, the Book of Mormon fits well. Over half of the things mentioned in the BoM are confirmed by archaeology-- in order words, archaeology confirms the existence of most of the things (for which archaeology can currently test) mentioned in the BoM.

Mike

[Tanyan]

MAsh, I left my mini LDS JEDI Temple today to go to my local LDS Bookstore to pick up your book that I ordered. So far after approx 100 pages I am enjoying the read. I will be ordering 3 more copies [1 for my personal library, 1 to keep in the trunk of my car, 1 to keep in the front seat of my car, and the one I have now to give out on a loan if needed]. A suggestion in future printings on page 33 - bottom - " Gordon B. Hinckley" should be replaced with 'Thomas S. Monson" [ Or whoever the current Prophet is during the next printing]. I have some additional information for the word "Faith" that I can PM you with that you may be interested in for the 2nd edition. Some of your Book is an easy read some is not so easy [ I am refering to members that read your Book and are not so literate to understand the material therin]. But hopefuly a literate member with some knowledge of LDS Apologetics can help them through it. So far the book Rocks/Rolls well. Thanks for putting it together.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[MAsh]

MAsh, I left my mini LDS JEDI Temple today to go to my local LDS Bookstore to pick up your book that I ordered. So far after approx 100 pages I am enjoying the read. I will be ordering 3 more copies [1 for my personal library, 1 to keep in the trunk of my car, 1 to keep in the front seat of my car, and the one I have now to give out on a loan if needed]. A suggestion in future printings on page 33 - bottom - " Gordon B. Hinckley" should be replaced with 'Thomas S. Monson" [ Or whoever the current Prophet is during the next printing]. I have some additional information for the word "Faith" that I can PM you with that you may be interested in for the 2nd edition. Some of your Book is an easy read some is not so easy [ I am refering to members that read your Book and are not so literate to understand the material therin]. But hopefuly a literate member with some knowledge of LDS Apologetics can help them through it. So far the book Rocks/Rolls well. Thanks for putting it together.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan, LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

Thanks, Tanyan. You can email any additional thoughts or comments to: mash@xmission.com

[e=mc2]

Hey I have become a fan of that nut archaeologist on the History channel, his show is "The Naked Archaeologist," (no there is no nudity, he means he loves to strip archaeology down bare to get to the point), and he was interviewing one of the world's foremost Israeli archaeologists about crucifixion. There were TENS OF THOUSANDS who were crucified, yet only a single, mere slip of a heel bone with a nail driven through it that has survived. So why don't we find more, since it was supposed to be such a popular form of execution?! The archaeologist stunned me with this insight. Why worry about the quantity? THE point is we now *DO* have one item, shall we not concentrate on what that archaeologically discovered item can teach us, instead of worry about finding more? We have it, lets let it teach us what it will and can. Now........ doggone it if that doesn't strike me as intelligent. Yes?

[Tanyan]

Thanks, Tanyan. You can email any additional thoughts or comments to: mash@xmission.com

MAsh, I will share and send when time allows. May Grace rain on you and yours.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[Sargon]

Quick question,

Before ordering the book, is there a coupon code I can use to get free shipping or something? I'm a real poor college kid.

[orion88]

This is exactly right. On another message board some are complaining about my comment (both in my book & here) on the BoM & Mesoamerican archaeology. In context of my book's chapter, however, I stand by my comment.

In the context of Mesoamerica, would you explain 3 Nephi 20:22:

"And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the

covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New

Jerusalem."

... considering that the church teaches the city of New Jerusalem will be in

Jackson County, Missouri?

What land is Nephi referring to? And what land is the same Nephi referring

to in 3 Nephi 8:11-12,17-18?

Tony

[Ron Beron]

Just a note of unsolicited praise. I had an interview last night with a member of our stake presidency and he mentioned the book. In fact, he gushed over it. He is a fairly well-known person (I won't mention his name, but he won an Olympic gold medal in gymnastics) and currently does motivational talks and he said this is a great book. Again, good going Mike.

[Tanyan]

Initials would not happen to be P.V. would it ?.

[MAsh]

Quick question,

Before ordering the book, is there a coupon code I can use to get free shipping or something? I'm a real poor college kid.

Sorry, no discount on shipping.

Mike

[MAsh]

In the context of Mesoamerica, would you explain 3 Nephi 20:22:

"And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the

covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New

Jerusalem."

... considering that the church teaches the city of New Jerusalem will be in

Jackson County, Missouri?

What land is Nephi referring to? And what land is the same Nephi referring

to in 3 Nephi 8:11-12,17-18?

Tony

"Land" in the BoM typically refers to a localized area (I haven't done a complete search to see how often this may vary), but it seems in 3 Ne. 20:22 it refers to a broader area (although still non-specfic geographic location). In Hebrew, eretz is often translated as "land" but it can also translated as the "whole earth," a "region," and even the "dust of the earth."

Mike

[Calm]

Quick question,

Before ordering the book, is there a coupon code I can use to get free shipping or something? I'm a real poor college kid.

FAIR often has specials on books; if you can't buy it now, keep an eye out for one of those. Shipping when I helped out at the bookstore was kept to pretty much cost so they can't exactly discount that without having to pay for it out of their pocket. Save on shipping by coming to the conference. And if you live in the area but can't attend the sessions, you can still drop by and visit the bookstore as that part is open to the general public. No shipping costs that way, just gas.

add-on: see you live in Texas. Do you have relatives in the area who might owe you a birthday present or something?

[Ron Beron]

Initials would not happen to be P.V. would it ?.

Good guess.

[Hyrum Page]

THE point is we now *DO* have one item, shall we not concentrate on what that archaeologically discovered item can teach us, instead of worry about finding more? We have it, lets let it teach us what it will and can. Now........ doggone it if that doesn't strike me as intelligent. Yes?

Well, it was a very specific item that was well contextualized by a long and intensely researched set of literary and artistic evidences.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

At the risk of appearing presumptuous, I direct MA&D participants to the new book, "Shaken Faith Syndrome: Strengthening One's Testimony in the Face of Criticism and Doubt," published by FAIR & distributed by Deseret Book. See http://www.ShakenFaithSyndrome.com

Mike

Looking forward to reading the book...I clicked on one of the links and found your picture. The book cover is fine but you have got to do something about that tie! What would it take to get a signed copy?

[MAsh]

Looking forward to reading the book...I clicked on one of the links and found your picture. The book cover is fine but you have got to do something about that tie! What would it take to get a signed copy?

That's my Mr. Potato Head tie (showing various pieces-parts that can be attached to his head). I own very few conservative ties. My tie rack includes Star Wars, Home Simpson, Kiss, the Coneheads, AC/DC, James Bond, James West (Wild, Wild, West), Sponge Bob, Taz, Mickey Mouse, Spiderman, Silver Surfer, Batman, Computers, Cameras, Egyptian symbols, etc. I don't like wearing a tie, but I have to six days a week-- so I feel like I might as well have fun with them. Like my many tee shirts, my ties reflect my "strange and unusual" character.

Come to the FAIR Conference & I'll sign your book.

Mike

[LifeOnaPlate]

Come to the FAIR Conference & I'll sign your book.

Mike

priestcrafts...

[Calm]

James West (Wild, Wild, West)

Better be the original or you'll lose all credibility with me....

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Come to the FAIR Conference & I'll sign your book.

Mike

Wish I could...I am coming to Utah for Christimas, so I can't afford two trips.