Are The Filthy Ever Made Truly Clean Again?

[consiglieri]

I knew a young woman in the Church many years back who had consensual sex with her boyfriend and went to her bishop with tears of repentance.

She was told that she was "a flower that would never bloom" She has not forgotten that comment after 30-years.

She was also given the line that, even with sincere repentance, she would never be as clean as she would have been had she not engaged in that activity.

How many have heard this in the Church, I wonder?

Or the demonstration about a white cloth that is made filthy and then goes through repeated washing, but is always dirtier and dingier than the white cloth that never got filthy in the first place.

This is one of those attitudes that diminishes the efficacy of the atonement of Christ, in my opinion.

We teach it, I think, to try to ward youth from engaging in sexual activity, so they will not think that they can do it now and become just as clean later as if they had never done it.

And I think there is value in that message.

But I also think the realities of the gospel are something altogether different.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jwhitlock]

It points out the faultiness of some of the analogies we use - and how sometimes those analogies color how the principle / doctrine actually works.

[kawikadave]

The Lord says this...

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Seems pretty clear that the Bishop was wrong to say anything like "Your flower will never bloom again" or for the woman to feel that she would never be clean.

Satan will tell us these things - "You will never be clean." Why? So that we feel unworthy and give up trying to become perfected in Christ. They are lies.

However...

It is absolutely better that she would not have sinned in the first place. Sin brings regret, doubt, pain, and many other ugly things into our life. Worthiness is always better than sin + repentance. Sin hampers our progression and might set us back permanently. We put our spiritual life in danger when we sin.

Obviously we all sin, but I think you're referring to serious sins that can and should be avoided.

[Hammer]

I have always felt there had to be a happy medium between the demonstrations of benefits of staying pure and the blessing of the atonement taking and making us as innocent as those who stayed pure. The only thing I have come up with in the scriptures is the fact that everyone is a sinner of one sort or another.

There are blessings lost when we sin. Yes we may be made pure again, but we lost something we will never regain and that goes for those who lie, cheat or steal as well as those who have lost their virtue.

That which was lost will not be regained. But the Lord will give us a clean bill of spiritual health if we truly repent.

The loss will not be regained. That is what we should teach the youth and ourselves when tempted to stray on any level.

It is as Christ stated to one-- Blessed are those who believe when they have seen, but MORE blessed are those who believe who have not seen.

The principle being that we are more blessed when we are steadfast and not sinning, than when we are sinning and repenting.

I also think of the statement made by more than one leader about the suffering we are adding upon the Savior when we choose to sin.

I wouldn't not feel comfortable knowing I was making choices that would require the Savior to suffer more.

Now with all of this said: I would like to clarify one thing that seems to be a constant clouding of the issues here: NO ONE HERE OR IN THE CHURCH THAT I KNOW OF CLAIMS THAT A RAPE VICTIM IS A SINNER.

--------------------

[No Touch]

I disagree with saying one cannot be absolved, but at the same time I understand where this is a difficult line to draw, where we can recognize the power of Christ to forgive and cleanse us and not take that as a license to sin without worry as you can always receive absolution.

I disagree with the Bishop's language, and I think overall this is a matter that has to be spoken differently of with those who have committed such sins vs those who have not. Those who have done it already know that they will never be the same, that they can never completely go back, and they need to be reminded that they can be forgiven if they repent, and that they can move forward. Those who haven't need to be forewarned though, that these sins have inescapable and permanent consequences.

And of course, I suppose it would be better to never sin in general, but that will never be reality for any of us, our children, or anyone else we ever meet except for Christ.

[Anijen]

Those who think they cannot be just as clean as before;

1) Do not understand repentance

2) Do not understand the Saviors atonement

It has always bothered me when I hear this it is really sad and infuriating if it comes from a church leader.

I hate this;

Sin is like a nail in a post, repentance pulls the nail out but the hole remains (the scar of sin). When you repent the Atonement makes the post NEW!

[Anijen]

kawikadave writes;

Worthiness is always better than sin + repentance.

In which I agree but only to the point of blessings lost during that time. The Atonement of Christ makes it as new as if it never happened anything other than that dilutes the atonement.

1) If you go serious sin free you reap certain blessing

2) If you commit serious sin you forfeit the right to have those blessing as mentioned above

3) If you repent of serious sin allowing the full effect of the atonement then you again receive blessings as mentioned in #1 but during the time of sin you were not allowed certain blessings that could have been yours.

Does this make sense? It does to me.

[Lightbearer]

I knew a young woman in the Church many years back who had consensual sex with her boyfriend and went to her bishop with tears of repentance.

She was told that she was "a flower that would never bloom" She has not forgotten that comment after 30-years.

She was also given the line that, even with sincere repentance, she would never be as clean as she would have been had she not engaged in that activity.

How many have heard this in the Church, I wonder?

Or the demonstration about a white cloth that is made filthy and then goes through repeated washing, but is always dirtier and dingier than the white cloth that never got filthy in the first place.

This is one of those attitudes that diminishes the efficacy of the atonement of Christ, in my opinion.

We teach it, I think, to try to ward youth from engaging in sexual activity, so they will not think that they can do it now and become just as clean later as if they had never done it.

And I think there is value in that message.

But I also think the realities of the gospel are something altogether different.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

If this Bishop said this as stated then he was an idiot and did not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ or the power of the atonement. If we could not be made clean and holy through the atonement of Christ and worthy of entering into exaltation into the Celestial Kingdom then we are all lost and damned forever! God cannot look upon sin with the "least degree of allowance" so we would all be in the same boat (whether it was sexual sin or any other). The trick is while we can be totally and completely forgiven... yet the memory of that sin does remain with us (at least in this life) and can be a tool that Satan will use against us, (he is after all the "accuser of the brethren") and will worry us with if we allow him. He tries to use anything and any means to get us to brake our covenants or deny the truth or harden our hearts. As to are we better off never having committed the sin... I say ABSOLUTELY! If I never view pornography, then those images are not in my brain, therefore I cannot be tempted to "review" those images and so I am better off not having succumbed to that temptation. We do not need to experience sin in order to grow in the knowledge of the Gospel. Jesus did not sin, of course he had some advantages, yet he was tempted and He overcame all things. Now we all have sinned in some manner and are always in need of His atonement. That is the only way we could become a God, we could not do it on our own. Without repentance and the atonement of Christ we would always be filthy and unclean. Moroni summaries the process:

(Moroni 10:32-33) "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot."

So Moroni seems to agree that the filthy can be made truly clean again, in fact they can become: "holy, without spot."

[kawikadave]

Sin is like a nail in a post, repentance pulls the nail out but the hole remains (the scar of sin). When you repent the Atonement makes the post NEW!

I think analogies often fall short or can be misleading.

Both statements "sin + repentance leaves a hole" or "sin + repentance makes everything like new" are incorrect, IMHO.

As has been already stated, sin can change us permanently. Someone who commits serious sin is not the same. They can repent and return to the path, but they are likely changed and have lost ground in their spiritual progression.

- Does a father who commits adultery become "like new" after repentance? Does his wife's trust and love return the same as before?

- Does a person who has pre-marital sex become "like new" if they return to the path and become worthy later to marry in the temple?

I'd say the answer is no. Regrets remain. Trust is destroyed and has to be rebuilt. Spiritual progress is halted for a time. Things are not put back "like new."

[jwhitlock]

I think analogies often fall short or can be misleading.

Both statements "sin + repentance leaves a hole" or "sin + repentance makes everything like new" are both incorrect, IMHO. As has been already stated, sin can change us permanently. Someone who commits serious sin is not the same. They can repent and return to the path, but they are likely changed and have lost ground in their spiritual progression.

- Does a father who commits adultery become "like new" after repentance? Does his wife's trust and love return the same as before?

- Does a person who has pre-marital sex become "like new" if they return to the path and become worthy later to marry in the temple?

I'd say the answer is no. Regrets remain. Trust is destroyed and has to be rebuilt. Spiritual progress is halted for a time. Things are not put back "like new."

Correct. There is a difference between a person being cleansed and made whole, and the consequences of that sin being erased.

Where the consequences concern the agency of another, that consequence is going to remain. The wife who divorces her husband because of his transgression, and then marries another, is not going to be her original husband's spouse again.

The atonement will not and cannot override agency in regards to another. The sinner will be made whole; the past cannot be erased.

[Hammer]

Those who think they cannot be just as clean as before;

1) Do not understand repentance

2) Do not understand the Saviors atonement

It has always bothered me when I hear this it is really sad and infuriating if it comes from a church leader.

I hate this;

Sin is like a nail in a post, repentance pulls the nail out but the hole remains (the scar of sin). When you repent the Atonement makes the post NEW!

The sin is gone but can you show me where it teaches the 'effects' are gone? What of a child born from such a sin? Does he just disappear?

[consiglieri]

I sometimes think that the failing comes from a misunderstanding of repentance.

It has been my experience that many Mormons (myself included) have fallen into the trap of thinking that repentance is something that can be planned.

In other words, I will be sinful until _________________ (here you can fill in the blank with "receive the priesthood," "go on a mission," "go to the temple," "right before I die."

The thought seems to be that all repentance amounts to is saying you're sorry and not doing it again.

I think the Book of Mormon teaches that repentance is a gift from God and cannot be planned or scheduled, but can only come from a broken heart and a contrite spirit; from feelings of deepest remorse.

If repentance does not spring from remorse, it is not repentance, I think.

And remorse can never be planned or scheduled. It either happens or it does not.

When understood in this manner, it seems that repentance is not something that can be intentionally procrastinated.

In fact, the very act of intentionally procrastinating repentance speaks to a lack of that remorse that would make repentance possible.

Although with God, all things are possible.

Just some thoughts.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Larsen]

Could it be that our God, the Father was a filthy sinner during his mortal existence?

[Duncan]

Could it be that our God, the Father was a filthy sinner during his mortal existence?

If he was then so what? He is God now and the past is just that the past. I don't see any value in teaching what kind of a mortal life God had, I see value in what we are doing today with our mortal experience.

[Glenn101]

kawikadave writes;

In which I agree but only to the point of blessings lost during that time. The Atonement of Christ makes it as new as if it never happened anything other than that dilutes the atonement.

1) If you go serious sin free you reap certain blessing

2) If you commit serious sin you forfeit the right to have those blessing as mentioned above

3) If you repent of serious sin allowing the full effect of the atonement then you again receive blessings as mentioned in #1 but during the time of sin you were not allowed certain blessings that could have been yours.

Does this make sense? It does to me.

One of the problems with "serious" sin is the stigma attached and the length of time it takes to overcome it. Sometimes it takes years, for one reason or another, for a person to fully understand the import of his/her actions and to fully understand what repentance really is. As you noted, those years are filled with opportunities lost and progression lost which can never be regained.

Also, few other members of the branch/ward also will really understand their role in helping the penitant back into full fellowship. The whispers and sometimes even overt shunning by some members of a local congregation often form a formidable impediment to one trying to return from a serious transgression.

That being said, those that do return may be better off than many others because they may be more keenly aware of their plight and more careful and diligent in their everyday lives.

That said, it is better never to have sinned (any sin), but the Lord has said that once we completely repent of a sin, He will remember them no more. (D&C 58:42 Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.)

Glenn

[Anijen]

I think analogies often fall short or can be misleading.

Both statements "sin + repentance leaves a hole" or "sin + repentance makes everything like new" are both incorrect, IMHO. As has been already stated, sin can change us permanently. Someone who commits serious sin is not the same. They can repent and return to the path, but they are likely changed and have lost ground in their spiritual progression.

- Does a father who commits adultery become "like new" after repentance? Does his wife's trust and love return the same as before?

- Does a person who has pre-marital sex become "like new" if they return to the path and become worthy later to marry in the temple?

I'd say the answer is no. Regrets remain. Trust is destroyed and has to be rebuilt. Spiritual progress is halted for a time. Things are not put back "like new."

Both statements "sin + repentance leaves a hole" or "sin + repentance makes everything like new" are both incorrect, IMHO.

I agree on the first point repentance does make things new baptism is the fruit of repentance and wipes away the sin and you become new.

Elder Holland states here;

But where repentance is possible and its requirements are faithfully pursued and completed, there is no â??hole left in the postâ? for the bold reason that it is no longer the same post. It is a new post. We can start again, utterly clean, with a new will and a new way of life.

Someone who commits serious sin is not the same

I agree

They can repent and return to the path, but they are likely changed and have lost ground in their spiritual progression.

yes I agree.

- Does a father who commits adultery become "like new" after repentance?

Yes or you make the atonement conditional, saying it makes the father new for lesser sins but not for the biggie...

Does his wife's trust and love return the same as before?

Yes and it takes time sometimes longer than the repentant father took to go through the repentance process. But yes its possible if not the forgiveness process is conditional...

Does a person who has pre-marital sex become "like new" if they return to the path and become worthy later to marry in the temple?

like new physically no of course not. Like new worthily, yes or once again you make the Saviors atonement conditional

I'd say the answer is no.

Then here is where we disagree, and I disagree very much.

Trust is destroyed and has to be rebuilt

Yes it does, but it is possible.

Spiritual progress is halted for a time.

We are in agreement.

Things are not put back "like new."

Yes they are in the Spiritual sense, time is lost for blessing not received but things are definitely made new. There is not one part of the sin that the Savior will remember. Part of the punishment is blessings lost during time of the sin, after the repentance the Lord will not withhold any blessing because the father has repented and has equal claim to exaltation as the one who went sin free.

Sometimes those who are sin free have the sin of pride knowing they lived worthily thereby thinking they are more deserving than a repentant soul.

[Anijen]

Let me make it clear that I am not condoning a sinful life style just to repent later!

I am just placing emphasis on the point most people do not understand the atonement and its effects.

[Hammer]

I think analogies often fall short or can be misleading.Both statements "sin + repentance leaves a hole" or "sin + repentance makes everything like new" are incorrect, IMHO. As has been already stated, sin can change us permanently. Someone who commits serious sin is not the same. They can repent and return to the path, but they are likely changed and have lost ground in their spiritual progression.- Does a father who commits adultery become "like new" after repentance? Does his wife's trust and love return the same as before?- Does a person who has pre-marital sex become "like new" if they return to the path and become worthy later to marry in the temple?I'd say the answer is no. Regrets remain. Trust is destroyed and has to be rebuilt. Spiritual progress is halted for a time. Things are not put back "like new."

Excellent post. You have managed to put--very clearly-- the doctrine as it was meant to be understood.

Let me make it clear that I am not condoning a sinful life style just to repent later!I am just placing emphasis on the point most people do not understand the atonement and its effects.

I think it has been made very understandable by kawikadave btw-- Is kawikadave Uncle Dave? Doesn't he live in Kauai?

[Anijen]

Excellent post. You have managed to put--very clearly-- the doctrine as it was meant to be understood.

well then I'm just a hayseed, because I disagreed with some parts and so would President Hinckley, President Benson, President Kimball, Elder Holland, President Eyring and many others in whom I have read on this.

[kawikadave]

Could it be that our God, the Father was a filthy sinner during his mortal existence?

Thanks for adding so much to the discussion.

Lame.

[Hammer]

well then I'm just a hayseed, because I disagreed with some parts and so would President Hinckley, President Benson, President Kimball, Elder Holland, President Eyring and many others in whom I have read on this.

Your a hayseed.

[kawikadave]

well then I'm just a hayseed, because I disagreed with some parts and so would President Hinckley, President Benson, President Kimball, Elder Holland, President Eyring and many others in whom I have read on this.

With repentance, we have the possibility of becoming a "new creature" or a "new fence post", if you will. We can spiritually turn to our Heavenly Father with full purpose and heart. That is obviously and wonderfully true.

However...

Regrets and consequences remain.

- The adulterous husband's wife may leave him, or her love and trust of him may never recover completely. The damage done to his children by his poor example may have eternal consequences. Regardless of his repentence and becoming "a new post", that damage may remain.

- When the person who had sex before marriage is asked by his future spouse if he has ever had sex with anyone else, they will have to answer that they have. Their future spouse's wish for someone who has lived a pure life will be unmet. Regrets may continue throughout their life because of that poor choice.

In Elder Holland's talk, he uses Alma the Younger as an example of someone who committed many sins and then had a change of heart (thanks to some divine intervention) and became "a new post." What did Alma do immediately after his conversion? He tried to preach to the people he had influenced to try to undo the damage he had caused. Was he 100% successful? Unlikely. Did he always regret his foolish actions before his repentance? I'm sure he did.

That's the point I'm trying to make. The OP asked if they sinners are ever made truly clean again. Clearly the answer is yes, but the effects of their sins continue regardless of their repentance.

Sometimes those who are sin free have the sin of pride knowing they lived worthily thereby thinking they are more deserving than a repentant soul.

I hope you aren't referring to me with this comment. I am speaking here as someone who has first-hand experience of the consequences of sin, not as one looking down on anyone else. I am the lowest of God's creatures and struggle with my own weaknesses.

[Amulek]

Is it worse to have sinned and repented than never to have sinned?

Worse in what respect? With respect to ones personal worthiness to stand clean before God â?? no, absolutely not. That is precisely what the Atonement is for. Still, there are certainly some ways in which it might be considered better to have never sinned in the first place.

There are probably more than a few recovering alcoholics who wish they had never taken that first drink. Just like there are men in the church who probably wish that they had never viewed pornography. Some sins not only hold back your spiritual growth temporarily, but they also create significant, yet completely avoidable, stumbling blocks upon your path in the future.

[Hammer]

Sometimes those who are sin free have the sin of pride knowing they lived worthily thereby thinking they are more deserving than a repentant soul.

Sometimes those who are sin free-- HAVE THE SIN? How are they sin free then?

[John Larsen]

Thanks for adding so much to the discussion.

Lame.

My point is that in Mormonism exaltation is the end goal and Mormons can repent in order to achieve this goal. At the end of his live Killer Kane was a temple going Mormon:

There is nothing in Mormonism that would preclude Brother Kane from entering the Celestial Kingdom and achieve his full glory and become the God of future worlds. In a sense, Mormonism offers the ultimate form of redemption because our God may well have been the vilest of sinners during his mortal existence. So one can fully repent and achieve the ultimate goal.

But I do appreciate your contribution to the discussion.