Are The Filthy Ever Made Truly Clean Again?

[consiglieri]

Apparently you and Urronor missed the post where I said there are consequences. Nobody can escape consequences for actions. Some sins result in more severe consequences than others. I gave examples above. Even with sexual sin there are degrees.

Of course there are consequences to sin. I feel that is somewhat beside the point I am trying to make.

But on the issue of consequences, we cannot overlook the fact that often the most severe consequences of sin fall upon those who did not commit the sin.

I live with the consequences of the sins of others.

Others live with the consequences of my sins.

It is often said it is better to never sin, and I don't want to come off here as a promoter of sinful behavior, but I think the plan that entailed never sinning was put forward by somebody else.

And isn't that one of the most beautiful ironies in LDS Doctrine? That it was Lucifer who put forth the plan that nobody sin, and it was the Father who put forth the plan that everybody sin.

I think there is something to be learned from that, though I would not claim to have plumbed its depths.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[urroner]

I believe that once a person is forgiven by God, then that person is forgiven by God and through the atonement, we can be totally cleansed of all our sins, but being cleansed of our sins and escaping all the consequences are two very different things.

We don't get to decide the consequences. If the Church, under the inspiration of the Lord, decide that, for whatever reason, that certain sins will prevent young people from serving a mission, then those are the consequences. Too many young people have decided that they can commit all types of sins and then, when the time comes, they will repent of them and go serve a mission. Now those days are over with. If they commit certain types of sin, there will be no mission. They have slammed shut the door, not the Church. I don't have a problem with those consequences and I have sons who haven't left on a mission yet and I would love for them to go on missions, but they also need to learn early in life that actions have consequences that can last a lifetime.

A mission is not a right, it's an honor that needs to be earned by keeping the commandments. It's not even about being perfect or even close to being perfect, it's about doing what is required.

If a young man can't go on a mission because of his actions, then whose fault is it, is it his or is it the Church's? If I run a red light and I receive a ticket, I can rant and rave at how terrible and nasty the cop is and how it really wasn't my fault, and if I get enough points, my license will be taken away. Again, is it the law's fault that my license was taken away?

And, while I know that this might sound a little callous or even arrogant, there are plenty of other things that young man can do to help build up the Lord's kingdom that don't involve going on a mission.

[Paul Ray]

We are diverging from the OP. Are The Filthy Ever Made Truly Clean Again?

Sin is bad. Sin has consequences...

Bottom line the truly repentant are made truly clean again through the Atonement and Grace of Christ.

I think some people are simply describing what it means to be clean, for those who may not know.

I like to compare it to taking a bath, especially after being dirty, with dirt, from working hard outside on my property.

The fact that I take a shower and get clean doesn't mean I don't remember the fact that I was dirty.

I may not remember what it feels like to be dirty, once I am done with my shower, but I still remember the fact that I was dirty and what I did to get dirty.

Being cleansed through the power of the atonement is like that, except that I feel clean inside as well as outside.

It washes all of the dirt away, but it doesn't wash away all of the memories.

[Honorentheos]

It washes all of the dirt away, but it doesn't wash away all of the memories.

Actually,...

[Honorentheos]

It's been interesting to read through this thread.

Two questions-

First, when I was an active member of the LDS faith, exaltation was a "state of being", not a place in the celestial kingdom as I recall. Is that how people tend to think of it?

Second, if it is a state-of-being, how does one argue that anyone can be denied grace if God states that he has forgiven the person and not lose the "state-of-being" that is like that of God?

Doesn't not forgiving others result in sin in the person who is unforgiving or unwilling to let a sin go in others? In other words, you lose the mind set like that of God when you refuse to forgive those God has seen fit to forgive?

And why so few scriptures to back up positions on a doctrinal question? (Sorry, had a third question after all.)

Just curious.

[Paul Ray]

Actually,...

Don't misunderstand me.

My memories of my sins are pretty much buried, but every once in a while I'll get a flashback about a sin I once committed, which sometimes simply serves to prevent me from committing the same sin again, or helps me see things that I have learned from overcoming that sin.

It's not like the sins I once committed are on the forefront of my mind, but the memories of them stll come back on occasions, though with no pain associated because I know I have been forgiven.

It's not as if I believe I never have sinned at all.

I know better than to believe something like that.

[Paul Ray]

It's been interesting to read through this thread.

Two questions-

First, when I was an active member of the LDS faith, exaltation was a "state of being", not a place in the celestial kingdom as I recall. Is that how people tend to think of it?

Kinda, sorta. I would simply replace your "not" with an "and/or".

Second, if it is a state-of-being, how does one argue that anyone can be denied grace if God states that he has forgiven the person and not lose the "state-of-being" that is like that of God?

Forgiveness is conditional upon repentance. If you commit the same sin again, you're back where you started, in sin.

Doesn't not forgiving others result in sin in the person who is unforgiving or unwilling to let a sin go in others?

Same answer as above. Forgiveness is conditional upon repentance.

It makes no sense to forgive someone when they are in the act of committing the sin.

If you lie to me, I'm not going to forgive you while you lie to me, but if you admit you lied and state that you will try to change your ways, I'll forgive you... each time you tell me you are trying to change your ways... until you commit the sin again.

Feels kinda like deja vu.

Savy?

In other words, you lose the mind set like that of God when you refuse to forgive those God has seen fit to forgive?

Yes, but you're under no obligation to forgive someone when they're in the act of committing a sin.

... and it would be stupid if you did.

... like trying to consider a person to be an honest person when you can see they are lying to you.

And why so few scriptures to back up positions on a doctrinal question? (Sorry, had a third question after all.)

How many times does someone need to say it before you can understand the doctrine?

Sheesh.

[urroner]

Forgiving somebody of an action is not the same as forgetting that action and holding that person responsible for that action. Forgiving somebody doesn't mean that I have to trust that person. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say "forgive and forget." Most of the time, eventually forgetting is important for me to move on, but sometimes not forgetting helps me to do the right things.

[Analytics]

It is often said it is better to never sin, and I don't want to come off here as a promoter of sinful behavior, but I think the plan that entailed never sinning was put forward by somebody else.

Excellent point!

I like to compare it to taking a bath, especially after being dirty, with dirt, from working hard outside on my property....

Wouldn't it be depressing if you made it a primary focus of your life to avoid getting dirty at all costs? If you thought it would be far better to never get dirty than to get dirty and bathe?

It seems to me that much of what is disparaged as â??sinâ? are simply things that will give you experience and will be for your good. Taking the broad path can give you a broader understanding.

And yes, I am promoting selectively "sinful" behavior.

[Analytics]

Forgiving somebody of an action is not the same as forgetting that action and holding that person responsible for that action. Forgiving somebody doesn't mean that I have to trust that person. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say "forgive and forget." Most of the time, eventually forgetting is important for me to move on, but sometimes not forgetting helps me to do the right things.

The scriptures do say we should be like God, and they do say that when he forgives you, he remembers your sins no more. To forgive and forget is scripturally Godly.

[Paul Ray]

Wouldn't it be depressing if you made it a primary focus of your life to avoid getting dirty at all costs?

You mean more depressing than the idea of needing to get dirty in order to get something accomplished.

Hmm. I don't know. Maybe.

If you thought it would be far better to never get dirty than to get dirty and bathe?

How about a way to stay clean while you are doing anything good that can possibly be done?

How about that?

Come up with a way to do that and I think you would make a lot of money.

It seems to me that much of what is disparaged as â??sinâ? are simply things that will give you experience and will be for your good. Taking the broad path can give you a broader understanding.

Sin is not for our good, but the experience of sinning can be if you learn that it's better not to sin in the first place.

I suppose some people just need to learn the hard way.

And yes, I am promoting selectively "sinful" behavior.

I'm sure someone will fall for that line, but I'm not one of your customers.

Ta ta.

[urroner]

The scriptures do say we should be like God, and they do say that when he forgives you, he remembers your sins no more. To forgive and forget is scripturally Godly.

So you are saying that if you have employed somebody to do some work for you and that person steals from you and tries to kill you and your family when you try to prevent him, you should simply forget what that person has done and keep him in your hire? Is that what expects of us?

BTW, Judas hanged himself and Jesus said "Go thou and do likewise." Isn't that what the scriptures say?

[Hammer]

Apparently you and Urronor missed the post where I said there are consequences. Nobody can escape consequences for actions. Some sins result in more severe consequences than others. I gave examples above. Even with sexual sin there are degrees.

The problem I have is that you and Paul Ray seem to want to forever taint someone with the personal or spirirual impact of sin and if I recall debates with you on this before, even into the eternities. But the good news of the gospel is clear. One Born of God is a new creature. The old man is dead. Thus a sinner, including sexual sinner, is not tainted and forever damaged. It is clear. To state otherwise is to deny the good news of Christ and his atonement. To put undue burden on the sinner with heavy handed rhetoric is simply wrong. I believe previous GAs that used such language and those that may continue to do so are very wrong and need to understand that undue emotional burdens and guilt they have heaped on many members is wrong.

Not so. You haven't understood a word I have posted.

[urroner]

Excellent point!

Wouldn't it be depressing if you made it a primary focus of your life to avoid getting dirty at all costs? If you thought it would be far better to never get dirty than to get dirty and bathe?

It seems to me that much of what is disparaged as â??sinâ? are simply things that will give you experience and will be for your good. Taking the broad path can give you a broader understanding.

And yes, I am promoting selectively "sinful" behavior.

There comes a point in a comparison of two things when it utterly fails when pushed too far. Sorry Analytics, you push the comparison a little too far.

[Hammer]

The scriptures do say we should be like God, and they do say that when he forgives you, he remembers your sins no more. To forgive and forget is scripturally Godly.

But humanly not applicable. We live and learn.

[urroner]

But humanly not applicable. We live and learn.

Actually Hammer, he is right, we should be like God. We should decide when people die and how they die. We should command people to pray to us and worship us. We should be creating new worlds or universes. You know, we should be like God.

[Darukuko]

Actually Hammer, he is right, we should be like God. We should decide when people die and how they die. We should command people to pray to us and worship us. We should be creating new worlds or universes. You know, we should be like God.

isn't this kind of disrespectful sarcasm used to bash another poster against the rules?

[Anijen]

Sometime there are those persons who have to taste the bitter to know the sweet (again let me emphasize I am not condoning sin at all). When we sin the repentant person is filled with more joy at what the Savior has done for us as compared to the judgmental person who parades his worthiness to the point of pride and taints as a previous poster has said the repentant person.

Can The Filthy Ever Made Truly Clean Again?

Just as clean as before (consequences are not taken away and are a reminder of that sin) but just as clean as before.

And the Lord will remember our sin no more.

If the Lord will forget them we too are to try also. It is Satan who says you never can be the same it is Satan who says remember when you did this or that. He is the one trying too make you miserable. Repentance should be a happy thing...

[Teancum]

I think some people are simply describing what it means to be clean, for those who may not know.

I like to compare it to taking a bath, especially after being dirty, with dirt, from working hard outside on my property.

The fact that I take a shower and get clean doesn't mean I don't remember the fact that I was dirty.

I may not remember what it feels like to be dirty, once I am done with my shower, but I still remember the fact that I was dirty and what I did to get dirty.

Being cleansed through the power of the atonement is like that, except that I feel clean inside as well as outside.

It washes all of the dirt away, but it doesn't wash away all of the memories.

Bad analogy. The scriptures say you are a new creature. NEW. The old one is dear. Being cleansed my the atonement does more than wash you up. It makes you new. So says Alma and Paul.

[Teancum]

Forgiving somebody of an action is not the same as forgetting that action and holding that person responsible for that action. Forgiving somebody doesn't mean that I have to trust that person. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say "forgive and forget." Most of the time, eventually forgetting is important for me to move on, but sometimes not forgetting helps me to do the right things.

D&C 58 says the Lord remembers them no more. Hebrews 10 says the same thing. I assume remember no more means forgetting them. I think someday he will give us the capacity to forget as well. Might not be this life though but with time most things fade.

Not so. You haven't understood a word I have posted.

Feel free to clarify by all means.

[urroner]

isn't this kind of disrespectful sarcasm used to bash another poster against the rules?

Did I bash the poster or did I "bash" what he said? Do you think there is a difference?

[Hammer]

Actually Hammer, he is right, we should be like God. We should decide when people die and how they die. We should command people to pray to us and worship us. We should be creating new worlds or universes. You know, we should be like God.

Oh yeah-- I forgot--

isn't this kind of disrespectful sarcasm used to bash another poster against the rules?

Bashing is when you slam post to post the other poster with really rude things. I know cause I have been guilty of such a time or two.This here from Urroner is just having some fun-- and teaching a truth with sarcasm. In other words there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Honorentheos]

<Speaking about whether exhaltation is a state-of-being or a place in the celestial kingdom> Kinda, sorta. I would simply replace your "not" with an "and/or".

Not to derail the thread, but I think this distinction makes a big difference to the topic. If exhaltation is a state of being, and something that is developed i a person and how they think, behave, and "are", then repentance means one thing.

If, on the other hand, God is in the celestial real-estate game then I think that much of the nit-picking over one's ranking in the grand que for lot selection probably validates some of the rather, um, passively spiteful definitions of repentance. IMHO, of course.

If you commit the same sin again, you're back where you started, in sin.

...which makes sense in the both definitions, but the nuance matters depending on whether the end goal of exhaltation is to "know God" as in the Gospel of John/Elder Maxwell type of thinking, or "know God" as in, he has a nice backyard- I've been there. And it appears that some feel one can 'know" God in this life.

It makes no sense to forgive someone when they are in the act of committing the sin. If you lie to me, I'm not going to forgive you while you lie to me, but if you admit you lied and state that you will try to change your ways, I'll forgive you... each time you tell me you are trying to change your ways... until you commit the sin again.

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they do..." just kidding. That is kind of off center from the topic over all, isn't it? The timing of when someone becomes clean wasn't in the OP. It was more of a "yes/no" absolute kind of question.

Feels kinda like deja vu.

Savy?

Yes, but you're under no obligation to forgive someone when they're in the act of committing a sin.

... and it would be stupid if you did.

... like trying to consider a person to be an honest person when you can see they are lying to you.

How many times does someone need to say it before you can understand the doctrine?

Sheesh.

'Cuz forgiving someone who was actively sinning against you would be like something out of the freakin' beattitudes or something. Can't have that.