The Legalization Of Polygamy In The United States

[Paul Ray]

Go fish.

Yeah!!!

And 'Go Fisk' as well.

See you soon.

<<<< to that guy over there.

[Martin]

This should help the honest person to evaluate the situation with Smith and his moral character.

Insinuating that exmormon.org gives honest answers or that only honest people go there is laughable. But for linking to anti-mormon sites you get the day off. ~Mods

[LifeOnaPlate]

Okay- just cuz I'm feeling contrary:

I and several others pounced on ION MIC for comparing the Pope to a crack addict- it was disrespectful of other people's religions.

Now several here are compaing Warren Jeffs to the Crypt keeper.

Do I sense a double standard or has dealing with Martin lowered my IQ to the breaking point?

And for the record, which one of them should be offended?

Comparing the Pope to the pictured man would be worse, imo.

[selek]

Actually you have a point. I should be a little more respectful. Ill recant what I have said. Is recant even a word?

Yes, "recanted" is a word.

Of course, the dirty little secret is that unlike the Pope who has dedicated his life to the service of God and his children, Jeffs has recanted (aaaahhhhh!) his role as a prophet, and has been convicted of various crimes.

It's not slander if it's true.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Martin, am I dishonest if I read your exmormon site and still believe in Christ's Church?

At least you're finally citing your sources, though. Congrats.

[AmazingDisgrace]

As for Sylvia Sessions, her claim to her daughter Josephine cannot be supported by DNA testing. So, perhaps she had a good fantasy life, but her implied claim of intimacy with Joseph Smith cannot be established, and the DNA tests would seem to disprove it.

There have been tests ruling out some as being Joseph's sons, but some of the tests were to determine the paternity of men who weren't likely to have been fathered by Joseph anyway, according to the timing of their births in relation to the window between the sealings and Joseph's death. I think it was Mosiah Hancock and Oliver Buell I'm thinking of.

But how would a DNA test on Josephine Lyon's descendants work anyway, when she didn't inherit a Y-chromosome from her father, whoever he may have been? Last I heard, Perego was still trying to figure out if there could be some other way to test her paternity. Are there new findings that have disproved her claim, as you say?

Well, at least your true motivations are revealed with this post.

So...if someone says they believe Josephine Lyon's claim that she was Joseph Smith's daughter, that gives you some kind of insight into their character and motivations? There are some believing LDS who accept her affidavit as evidence that Joseph Smith fathered children by at least one of his polyandrous wives. What are their true motivations?

In any case, I adhere quite strongly to the maxim that what is wrong in one set of circumstances may be and often is right under a different set of circumstances.

If this is true, then I don't understand your indignation towards those who accept evidence that you, personally, find unconvincing. None of us would be qualified to judge Joseph Smith for any possible action, even if we had access to a perfect lens of certain history. If the standard of morality used for judging Joseph's character is the things that Joseph claimed God commanded him to do, then he could have claimed and done anything, and all Mormons would be obligated to defend it.

[Doctor Steuss]

[Deleted... unnecessary low-blow]

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

This should help the honest person to evaluate the situation with Smith and his moral character.

Uh so I guess only honest people go to the Ford dealership to learn about Chevy's. You would make a horrible salesman, I dont recommend you go into the business.

I hope you realise my last comment was totally joke. Please dont be offended.

[William Schryver]

I've noticed lately that when I participate on threads, no one ever replies to or addresses anything I have to say. I've concluded that one of the following things is going on here:

1. I'm typing with invisible characters and no one can see my posts.

2. Everyone on the board has put me on their "ignore list."

3. I have nothing of substance to say, and therefore no one responds to it.

4. No one cares what I have to say, whether it has substance or not.

5. I'm being boycotted because of my long hair and beard.

6. I am a qualified target of the famous Abraham Lincoln quip:

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I know."

Edit: I just noticed that AmazingDisgrace addressed my post, and I am so honored!

However, I have to leave now and will reply when I return.

[SilverKnight]

I've noticed lately that when I participate on threads, no one ever replies to or addresses anything I have to say. I've concluded that one of the following things is going on here:

1. I'm typing with invisible characters and no one can see my posts.

2. Everyone on the board has put me on their "ignore list."

3. I have nothing of substance to say, and therefore no one responds to it.

4. No one cares what I have to say, whether it has substance or not.

5. I'm being boycotted because of my long hair and beard.

6. I am a qualified target of the famous Abraham Lincoln quip:

Edit: I just noticed that AmazingDisgrace addressed my post, and I am so honored!

However, I have to leave now and will reply when I return.

Will, it's because you look too much like the false Jesus of mormonism.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Will, it's because you look too much like the false Jesus of mormonism.

Lol. I just figured out why everyone is making jokes. It is because you all just got your girl scout cookies and are excited/hyper with the suger intake.

Will I read a lot of your posts and the thing you didnt add was that they are insightful and not much could be added to them.

[selek]

Oh, my, I forgot to leave you this link:

[This should help the honest person to evaluate the situation with Smith and his moral character.

So in otherwords, you are totally unqualified to use thhat site to evaluate Smith?

I'm not joking, please be offended.

It will be a small fraction of what your polemics have offered here.

[Paul Ray]

I've noticed lately that when I participate on threads, no one ever replies to or addresses anything I have to say. I've concluded that one of the following things is going on here:

1. I'm typing with invisible characters and no one can see my posts.

2. Everyone on the board has put me on their "ignore list."

3. I have nothing of substance to say, and therefore no one responds to it.

4. No one cares what I have to say, whether it has substance or not.

5. I'm being boycotted because of my long hair and beard.

6. I am a qualified target of the famous Abraham Lincoln quip:

Edit: I just noticed that AmazingDisgrace addressed my post, and I am so honored!

However, I have to leave now and will reply when I return.

William?

William... is that you?

Oh, yes, hello William.

No, what were you saying earlier?

What?

Speak louder please.

Sorry, but I still cannot hear you.

Ah, well. There will come another day, even if not on this Earth.

[selek]

I've noticed lately that when I participate on threads, no one ever replies to or addresses anything I have to say. I've concluded that one of the following things is going on here:

1. I'm typing with invisible characters and no one can see my posts.

2. Everyone on the board has put me on their "ignore list."

3. I have nothing of substance to say, and therefore no one responds to it.

4. No one cares what I have to say, whether it has substance or not.

5. I'm being boycotted because of my long hair and beard.

6. I am a qualified target of the famous Abraham Lincoln quip:

Edit: I just noticed that AmazingDisgrace addressed my post, and I am so honored!

However, I have to leave now and will reply when I return.

Not to condemn you for all your evils, but I never respond directly to DCP's Nefarious missives, either.

It is because I am awed into (comparative) silence.

By contrast, of course, you'll note that I nearly always respond to LOAP.

[Paul Ray]

***reference to ex-mormon website***soon to be deleted***now deleted***

This should help the honest person to evaluate the situation with Smith and his moral character.

Heh, why would you think that.

Everybody knows ex-mormons don't know the truth about our true religion, otherwise they would still be members of our true Church.

Make a mental note: You can't disprove what is true by making false statements.

... no matter how many times you try to do it.

We do give lessons to people who want to contend against our Church, if you are interested.

Apply within.

[Garden Girl]

Martin...

In reading the quote you highlighted that Sylvia Sessions told her daughter on her death bed... I was struck by the absence of anything specific about the physical relationship of Joseph Smith as her "father"... One would think that such a statement would include some such reference...

for instance:

"Josephine's mother told her she was the "daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the prophet at the time that her husband was out of fellowship with the Church."

What did she really mean by this statement? That she was Joseph's daughter by right of her mother being "sealed" to the prophet? I am sealed to my mother and my step-father... and have taken him as my "father" vs. my biological father. I was not produced by a physical relationship between my mother and step-father... but became his "daughter" through marriage and moreso, and by my mother and I being sealed to him in our eternal family...

And, as far as your link to the site that tells of Joseph's "character," I can quote testimony after testimony from the writings and jounals of people who knew and loved the prophet as to what his character was... my favorite being the testimony of John Taylor... to whit:

"I have seen him, then, under these various circumstances, and testify before God, angels, and men, that he was a good, honorable, virtuous man--that his doctrines were good, scriptural, and wholesome--that his precepts were such as became a man of God-- that his private and public character was unimpeachable -- that he lived and died as a man of God and a gentleman. This is my testimony. If it is disputed, bring me a person authorized to receive an affadavit, and I will make one to this effect. I therefore testfy of things which I know and of things which I have seen."

The Garden Girl

[LifeOnaPlate]

Martin...

In reading the quote you highlighted that Sylvia Sessions told her daughter on her death bed... I was struck by the absence of anything specific about the physical relationship of Joseph Smith as her "father"... One would think that such a statement would include some such reference...

for instance:

"Josephine's mother told her she was the "daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith, she having been sealed to the prophet at the time that her husband was out of fellowship with the Church."

What did she really mean by this statement? That she was Joseph's daughter by right of her mother being "sealed" to the prophet? I am sealed to my mother and my step-father... and have taken him as my "father" vs. my biological father. I was not produced by a physical relationship between my mother and step-father... but became his "daughter" through marriage and moreso, and by my mother and I being sealed to him in our eternal family...

And, as far as your link to the site that tells of Joseph's "character," I can quote testimony after testimony from the writings and jounals of people who knew and loved the prophet as to what his character was... my favorite being the testimony of John Taylor... to whit:

"I have seen him, then, under these various circumstances, and testify before God, angels, and men, that he was a good, honorable, virtuous man--that his doctrines were good, scriptural, and wholesome--that his precepts were such as became a man of God-- that his private and public character was unimpeachable -- that he lived and died as a man of God and a gentleman. This is my testimony. If it is disputed, bring me a person authorized to receive an affadavit, and I will make one to this effect. I therefore testfy of things which I know and of things which I have seen."

The Garden Girl

Oh, man! You mean all that quote-mining and all that was discovered was fools gold?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

If the anwer is no, they will never undertake this practice again, then shouldn't the LDS remove D&C 132 from the Standard Works, as the Church has no intention of following this revelation under any circumstances?

Why so our critics can accuse of us from trying to hide out past. As I am sure you know that even in JS days one was only required to live this law if commanded. Which most were not. Should we remove parts of the Bible where the Lord's anointed practiced Polygamy also?

Why are so many obsessed with this topic concerning the LDS church but silent about it concerning those in the Bible? God Identifies himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all Polygamist.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This was a good and thoughtout response. However, we cannot equate the Old Covenant Law for the Jews with the New Covenant Law. D&C purports to be a "new and everlasting" covenant for the "saints." Therefore, it cannot simply be dismissed. Moses' law was fulfilled by Christ. However, D&C claims it will always be in force, and in fact, the Manifesto(s) did not abolish it but only suspended the practice.

Did Christ even condemn Polygamy once? No he did not, the only requirement was that a "Bishop" have only one wife. This so he could devote himself to the "flock". I pray that polygamy never gets reinstated. I find one wife more than enough.

[selek]

Did Christ even condemn Polygamy once? No he did not, the only requirement was that a "Bishop" have only one wife. This so he could devote himself to the "flock". I pray that polygamy never gets reinstated. I find one wife more than enough.

Actually, if memory serves, Pa Pa- that verse could just as easily be interpreted to mean at least one wife.

[Paul Ray]

I pray that polygamy never gets reinstated. I find one wife more than enough.

I once felt that way, when I felt like I was having to struggle to make my marriage work.

Now that I'm no longer struggling I see that I have one awesome woman, and since I have something I like I now want a lot more of the same kind of thing.

And, of course, you can have all that you want, too.

I don't want all I can have to take away from all you can have for yourself.

No sharing, but equal privileges.

[Magdalena]

One of the issues with polygamy is that it entails an ideal that is to some extent quite foreign to many of us. Marriage within polygamy is no longer an intimate sharing that should have no secrets. There is no sense of this personal intimacy, and these ideas are generally played down in a polygamous society (it is interesting to see this kind of rhetoric introduce itself within Mormonism as the practice is ramping up there). For those of us (like me) who have been raised with this other set of ideals for marriage, and who work hard all the time to maintain that kind of relationship where there is this intimate closeness and complete openess and honesty, polygamy would be quite foreign and perhaps quite repressive.

Probably much the same as it was to most of the members in Joseph Smith's time.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Probably much the same as it was to most of the members in Joseph Smith's time.

It was terribly hard for many of them, indeed.

[Nemesis]

Probably much the same as it was to most of the members in Joseph Smith's time.

Magdelana,

In the 4 days you have been you here you have posted 75 post, most of them with little to no substance to them. Start adding more then one liners and cut and paste jobs or leave the site. From this point on you are now limited to 5 posts in 24 hours. If you can manage to add some substance to your posts you won't have this restriction for to long.

Nemesis

[The Spectre]

Quote:

Posted by: Martin Today, 01:33 PM

QUOTE(Paul Ray @ Mar 12 2008, 02:17 PM)

No, not yet. I think I would need to get a better paying job to support the wives I would want, if God allowed me to have many more. But then again, God has a way of providing for those who accept his will, so maybe everything would work out okay fine without that.

If not, she could probably get accustomed to the idea. Some things take some growing into.

Do you think you would be happy with the prospect of joining our Church if God allowed you to have more than one wife?

If you knew who I am, you would laugh at that!

END QUOTE

OK Martin. By all means please tell us who you are so we can all have a good laugh.