Jump to content

Why Did God Create Some Humans Only To Damn Them?


Bernard Gui

Recommended Posts

So, God created humans.

From nothing.

Some were predestined to be saved.

Some were predestined to be damned.

Why bother?

Bernard

Link to comment

LDS theology says that we have always existed in the form of intelligence. God gathered and organized the intelligences together. So, from an LDS viewpoint, it is incorrect to say that God made man from nothing.

As to why He made us, I would reverse that question and ask why did man make God??

Link to comment

LDS theology says that we have always existed in the form of intelligence. God gathered and organized the intelligences together. So, from an LDS viewpoint, it is incorrect to say that God made man from nothing.

As to why He made us, I would reverse that question and ask why did man make God??

Not discussing LDS theology. Calvinism or whatever brand of Protestantism believes the above,

or some variety of the above.

Bernard

Link to comment

So, God created humans.

From nothing.

Some were predestined to be saved.

Some were predestined to be damned.

Why bother?

Bernard

God predestines no man to damnation. We are given freedom of choice. All are given the Light of Christ to abide in them.

The predestine concept has been twisted into the idea that everything is already decided. There is too much other doctrine and Scripture to unravel this concept.

Predestination would make asking, seeking and knocking irrellevent. It would also make repentance a stupid

mockery on mankind.

We are all given everything that the Father has. Its how we use it that decides whether we damn ourselves or not.

son

Link to comment

God predestines no man to damnation. We are given freedom of choice. All are given the Light of Christ to abide in them.

The predestine concept has been twisted into the idea that everything is already decided. There is too much other doctrine and Scripture to unravel this concept.

Predestination would make asking, seeking and knocking irrellevent. It would also make repentance a stupid

mockery on mankind.

We are all given everything that the Father has. Its how we use it that decides whether we damn ourselves or not.

son

In some versions of Christianity, there is no such thing as free will, there is only the predestination of man, controlled completely by God. Man can only damn himself, which is done when he is born, but how he damns himself is not known. They have said that it is because of the child's sin, but they can't figure out what that sin is, but only God can save, the person has no choice in the matter. God could save all, but He doesn't. God could damn all, but He doesn't.

Link to comment

In some versions of Christianity, there is no such thing as free will, there is only the predestination of man, controlled completely by God. Man can only damn himself, which is done when he is born, but how he damns himself is not known. They have said that it is because of the child's sin, but they can't figure out what that sin is, but only God can save, the person has no choice in the matter. God could save all, but He doesn't. God could damn all, but He doesn't.

The bible speaks of the sins of fathers affecting sons...grandsons..etc..generational curses. Man(Adam) had broken the relationship with God by breaking God's Law. So Adam "the imperfect" spawned children that were all imperfect, just like their daddy. The Bible would say none are worthy...no not one. However, I believe there is an age of accountability, in the eyes of Christ....got something to do with that pluck out your eye, if its gonna make ya sin...but the kids will see the face of God...etc..

Im not a big advocate of free will, free agency. In fact I think when it comes down to it we only have one free choice to make. Follow Jesus (Y/N)

For the record..I think that age of accountability is somewhere around the end of 12. Aren't Jews Barmitsfad(bet I slaughtered that little piece of vocabulary) at the age of 13. Isn't that when there decisions become relavant as a man...not a child. Christ was speaking to Jews when he made his statement...so I kinda put Jewish law first on that one.

As to the OP..... I kinda go with a hybrid philosophy... Part One-If we follow Christ...we wont be damned.

Part Two - What if you dont agree with Part One.....well...you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, dont ya.

I think the real question is....are you an egg or an omelet.

Link to comment

The following quote is from a Church article I found on lds.org.

"We do not believe in a deterministic Godâ??that is, one who determines in advance the eventual fate of His children. Rather, we believe in a God who has perfect foreknowledge of the choices His children will make. He may use this foreknowledge to guide us or even to warn us, but He does not use it to preempt our agency. He allows us to become what we truly desire to become. As Elder James E. Talmage (1862â??1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles wrote: â??[God] knows what each will do under given conditions, and sees the end from the beginning. His foreknowledge is based on intelligence and reason. He foresees the future as a state which naturally and surely will be; not as one which must be because He has arbitrarily willed that it shall be.â? 1

Most Christian churches believe God created His children ex nihiloâ??out of nothing. If this were true, then God might be held accountable for any evil we would do because He created us with flaws and weaknesses. But we know our Heavenly Father did not create us out of nothing, and He is not responsible for our weaknesses or sins. He merely places us, His spirit children, in spheres where we can learn and grow by exercising our agency, if we employ it correctly." (â??The Fulness of the Gospel: Agency,â? Ensign, Mar 2006, 18â??19)

Link to comment

So, God created humans.

From nothing.

Some were predestined to be saved.

Some were predestined to be damned.

Why bother?

Bernard

These are questions we do not understand fully. what we do know that is we were predestined to some point of trials in mortality. why some have more severe than others we do not fully know {yet}.I dont think anybody was predestined to be damned? We were all given free agency, before and during mortal life.

:P

Link to comment

This thread is a great opportunity to discuss why many of us see the Divide as very Wide

the very premise

Did God create all things and does He have ownership over that creation to do as He wills

or

Did intelligences exist eternally and equally with no one intelligence greater in standing than the others thus making any claim for Sovereignty illegitimate?

Many of us hold to the former. That as Creator God can work His creation as He wills. While Scripture never teaches that God creates some for damnation Paul does raise the question and answer with humility that God can do as He wills and who are we to question?

Link to comment

This thread is a great opportunity to discuss why many of us see the Divide as very Wide

the very premise

Did God create all things and does He have ownership over that creation to do as He wills

or

Did intelligences exist eternally and equally with no one intelligence greater in standing than the others thus making any claim for Sovereignty illegitimate?

Many of us hold to the former. That as Creator God can work His creation as He wills. While Scripture never teaches that God creates some for damnation Paul does raise the question and answer with humility that God can do as He wills and who are we to question?

This brings up a question for me. Could you (or someone else more acquainted with the concept than I) explain exactly what Sovereignty entails? (capitalized, no less!) What is required for said Sovereignty to be legitimate?

Link to comment

While Scripture never teaches that God creates some for damnation Paul does raise the question and answer with humility that God can do as He wills and who are we to question?

Scripture also teaches if any one is lacking wisdom they can ask God for an answer. Who are we to question? We are God's sons and daughters.

Link to comment

So, God created humans.

From nothing.

Some were predestined to be saved.

Some were predestined to be damned.

Why bother?

Bernard

It is really rather simple. We have always had agency to choose. What we choose determines what we receive. This is true of our first estate as well as this the second estate. It isn't ARBITRARY this and that.

Oh and God didn't create humans to just damn them. He gave them life that they might gain experience and therefore wisdom, understanding, and eventually all the good things He has waiting for them.

Link to comment

Did intelligences exist eternally and equally with no one intelligence greater in standing than the others thus making any claim for Sovereignty illegitimate?

Who holds this view? THe LDS do not as far as I know. The whole part about eternally is true but not equally. Care to elaborate?

Link to comment

Did intelligences exist eternally and equally with no one intelligence greater in standing than the others thus making any claim for Sovereignty illegitimate?

A correction here :P:

Abraham 3:

15 And the Lord said unto me: Abraham, I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt, that ye may declare all these words.

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will do it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

20 The Lord thy God sent his angel to deliver thee from the hands of the priest of Elkenah.

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

I am curious if you read the last verse as demonstrating Sovereignty and if not, why not.

Link to comment

As I have thought about this subject a lot in the past, this is the conclusion that I came to...

I imagine that God, way back in the day, went to some unorganized matter that already existed and said come follow me. That matter, chose on its own to follow him and each "collection" of matter would follow to a different degree or another - aka varied righteousness of these intelligences. He didn't make them at these varied degrees, they acted on their own. At that point when any one collection of unorganized matter began to follow him, one could argue that every decision could be predicted that it would make from there on out. But, the key is probably in the fact that the unorganized matter chose to "collect" and follow on its own. Thus, God did not make it and predispose it to any final end. I hope that makes sense, it is difficult to explain.

Link to comment

So, God created humans.

From nothing.

Some were predestined to be saved.

Some were predestined to be damned.

Why bother?

Bernard

Because He can.

For His pleasure.

These are the kinds of answers I've gotten from some fringe Christians from another board. From my point of view, that brand of Christianity truly does require one to check one's brain at the door.

:P

Link to comment

It's a rather arbitrary and capricious god who can create me and allow me the experiences of life -- joy, pain, victory, trauma, pleasure, depression, hope, chocolate double-fudge brownie ice-cream, etc -- only never to endow me with the capacity to think and choose for myself, and ultimately to consign me to everlasting torment for the sin of merely existing at his will.

Somehow, that god reminds me of the kid who sits outside on a sunny day with a magnifying glass and tormenting insignificant ants who neither know of nor comprehend the kid's existence. It's certainly not a creature I'd want to worship. I daresay it's not a creature that has earned worship.

Link to comment

It's a rather arbitrary and capricious god who can create me and allow me the experiences of life -- joy, pain, victory, trauma, pleasure, depression, hope, chocolate double-fudge brownie ice-cream, etc -- only never to endow me with the capacity to think and choose for myself, and ultimately to consign me to everlasting torment for the sin of merely existing at his will.

Somehow, that god reminds me of the kid who sits outside on a sunny day with a magnifying glass and tormenting insignificant ants who neither know of nor comprehend the kid's existence. It's certainly not a creature I'd want to worship. I daresay it's not a creature that has earned worship.

And yet "they" will feign offense that the Prophet reported that Jesus Christ told him, personally, that such doctrines are an abomination to Him.

Link to comment

And yet "they" will feign offense that the Prophet reported that Jesus Christ told him, personally, that such doctrines are an abomination to Him.

Since -- at least in my limited experience -- most people who believe in predestination also seem conveniently convinced that they are in the 'saved' group, I should think that having one's 'saved' status jeopardized by the visions of a NY farmboy would be a little agitating.

Link to comment

Since -- at least in my limited experience -- most people who believe in predestination also seem conveniently convinced that they are in the 'saved' group, I should think that having one's 'saved' status jeopardized by the visions of a NY farmboy would be a little agitating.

Suppose I'm a saved creature, I've heard this phrase by several EVers here in Florida, and I believe that once saved, always saved, so life is sweet for me. No matter what I do, I'm saved, no sin to great, no good deed to small, it doesn't matter. No worries in my life about the next life, but then here come this people who tell me that my actions do matter and that I ain't necessarily saved if I don't straighten up and follow the Lord's commandments. This can't be good, that means a major paradigm shift and that grace ain't cheap. Of course I'm going to be agitated and inflamed. I have to save my state of saveness, but dang, that requires that I do something.

Link to comment

The bible speaks of the sins of fathers affecting sons...grandsons..etc..generational curses. Man(Adam) had broken the relationship with God by breaking God's Law. So Adam "the imperfect" spawned children that were all imperfect, just like their daddy. The Bible would say none are worthy...no not one. However, I believe there is an age of accountability, in the eyes of Christ....got something to do with that pluck out your eye, if its gonna make ya sin...but the kids will see the face of God...etc..

Im not a big advocate of free will, free agency. In fact I think when it comes down to it we only have one free choice to make. Follow Jesus (Y/N)

For the record..I think that age of accountability is somewhere around the end of 12. Aren't Jews Barmitsfad(bet I slaughtered that little piece of vocabulary) at the age of 13. Isn't that when there decisions become relavant as a man...not a child. Christ was speaking to Jews when he made his statement...so I kinda put Jewish law first on that one.

As to the OP..... I kinda go with a hybrid philosophy... Part One-If we follow Christ...we wont be damned.

Part Two - What if you dont agree with Part One.....well...you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet, dont ya.

I think the real question is....are you an egg or an omelet.

Now yur reading words into the Bible that arnt there... "Non are "Righteous" no not one.

Link to comment

I would like to hear from a hard core Calvinist, or someone who leans strongly in that

direction. Why did God even bother, when everything went so wrong from the start?

What was the point of making humans just to damn them to hell? I don't buy the argument

that it was to show his Sovereignty. He can do that by creating galaxies. Creating a bunch of sinners

to damn and a few saints to worship him seems like a petty show of arrogance by someone

up on Mt. Olympus. For what purpose did he do this?

Bernard

Link to comment

is everyone done yet? I still see a little straw laying around left over if anyone needs some for their arguments...

(what? you say incredulously, LDS creating strawmen of other's religious beliefs? How can this be? Have the persecuted become the persecutors? these questions for next episode of Jack Chick and Other LDS Guilty Pleasures)

Reformed Theology does not believe that a saved person can sit back and do what they want

Reformed Theology does not teach that God creates people for the purpose of damning them

Reformed Theologians are not "agitated" that a farm boy considered our beliefs apostate and thinks us unsaved as he is not now nor will ever be our final judge

Reformed Theologians do not think God finds any pleasure in the damnation of the wicked

Reformed Theology does not teach that our Creator God is either "capricious" or that He did not endow you with the ability to think for yourself (is the LDS God capricious for starting the church then turning His back on the planet for 1800 years?)

Reformed Theology does teach that all creation is to bring God glory. That His plan will be fulfilled as He dictates. That He will show mercy on whom He will. That our sinful nature cripples our "free will" so that we choose the wrong and make Him and His will a constant opposition to our will. That unless God mercifully and miraculously calls us we are unwilling and unable to 'choose' Him. That at no time ever can our "choice" blunt the eternal plans of God; that He is under no obligation to share His mercy to those who are His enemies.

That this is Sovereignty. It is not a comfortable doctrine but it reigns througout Scripture from the Garden to John's final vision.

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...