Universal Apostasy Or Not?

[consiglieri]

My crew calls me Cap'n Poopie Pants.

[captain-jack]

How...wait, no I don't want to know.

[owl]

...the prophet Nephi 1 had a vision of the early Christian church and its twelve apostles, against whom the 'multitudes of the earth' and the house of Israel fought (1 Ne. 11:34-35). He foresaw a 'great and abominable church' that persecuted true Christians and the poor, and whose members were motivated by such things as pride, clothing themselves in precious raiment, and indulging in sexual immorality (see Great and Abominable Church). It altered the simplicity of the gospel insidiously, did away with covenants, excised important scriptures, and denied the existence of miracles.

Of course this Church is not an organization but includes all who try to persuaded men to disobey the comandments of God.

And hey guys cut out the quipping!!!!

Somone who cares may have to read that stuff.

I'd like to see the thread die too, but I also would like to get a couple questions answered although I would be glad to ask them on another thread that Bob would be willing to participate in.

I'm going to tack this on so Bob if he ever gets here will see it sooner. The quotes are from you Bob.

“PacMan claimed that God never infringes on man's agency. Biblically, that's absolutely false.”

Bob,

When someone is imprisoned or even dies they have not lost their agency. They are just exercising it in a different sphere.

“ ‘ It is their choice to be saved, if they want to be.’ Sure, if God chooses first, and woos the soul to WANT to choose Christ.”

Do you maintain that there are any of His children here on earth that God is not trying to woo and persuade to accept Christ and be born anew.

“Dead men don't make choices. Once God made me alive together with Christ, then I choose Christ.”

Do you maintain that those who refuse to accept Christ are dead and therefore have no control over their actions in so refusing? If so, how can they be punished for their choices while dead.?

Bob, be sure to read Paul Ray’s post 587!!!

[captain-jack]

Of course this Church is not an organization but includes all who try to persuaded men to disobey the comandments of God.

And hey guys cut out the quipping!!!!

Somone who cares may have ro read that stuff.

I'd like to see the thread die too,

but I also would like to get a couple quetions answered although I would be gald to ask them on another thread that Bob would be willing to participate in.

I've had a few threads that had Mr. Betts name on them that unfortunately he was unable to either get to or was unaware of them. Doesn't always work to start a new thread.

[Bob Betts]

Do you think it would be proper for me to state that our Lord could have appointed people who rejected (and would continue to reject) his teachings as his replacements for his authorized apostles?

No, why would I think it proper for you to say THAT?

No, and I'm thoroughly confused by the question.

Okay, then what is it that leads you to believe God bears the responsibility for the apostasy of other people who do not follow God?

Our Lord says "Follow me" and when people don't choose to follow him, they choose to apostasize.

I say it isn't God's fault that people do not choose to follow God, or turn away from him.

You seem to be saying it was God who caused the apostasy of other people.

I think you're confused by my playing Devil's Advocate in my responses. I'm not saying God did anything of the sort. I don't believe there was such a great or universal or complete (or whatever you want to call it) apostasy as Mormonism claims. But, as long as you LDS are going to believe there WAS an apostasy, because God didn't authorize John to call replacement Apostles for those who were martyred (according to PacMan's argument), then obviously God must ultimately bear the responsibility for the alleged apostasy.

Heh, are you suggesting there has always been an apostasy?

I suppose for some, that is right, but our Lord considers all who truly follow him (and his teachings) to be righteous... to the extent that they follow him.

By definition of the word, "apostasy," yes. There have always been people who have fallen away from faith. Just not ever a complete apostasy of faith.

I thought we cleared that up already.

There was never a "complete" apostasy, in the sense I think you mean it.

We still have words of the apostles that were written in the Holy Bible.

We still have all the writings that we have in the Old Testament.

What we don't have are apostles... or at least we didn't until the priesthood of God was restored.

Without apostles there can be no unity, because it is the work of the apostles to bring us into unity.

... they are the general authorities with the authority to establish... and correct... local leaders.

The Great Apostasy was directly related to people turning away from the teachings of our Lord through his true apostles.

Without leadership over the whole church, the church became divided over matters of doctrine in which they were not in agreement.... they were not united.

I'm getting the distinct impression that you really haven't been listening, Bob.

Oh, I've been listening. But, again, different people are saying different things, giving different explanations. Depending on whom I'm responding to, I could see how you might THINK I'm not listening. But I think it's a matter of different responses to different LDS, depending on their response. No doubt, this IS confusing. I struggle with following some of this thread myself, with all the different ideas and opinions being tossed around. Good luck keeping up.

In response to YOU, back I take you to the PMG manual:

"After the death of Jesus Christ, wicked people persecuted the Apostles and Church members and killed many of them. With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth. The Apostles had kept the doctrines of the gospel pure and maintained the order and standard of worthiness for Church members. Without the Apostles, over time the doctrines were corrupted, and unauthorized changes were made in Church organization and priesthood ordinances, such as baptism and conferring the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Let me try a different tact.

You (and your church) say all authority (priesthood keys) were taken from the earth with the deaths of the Apostles. What about Jesus Christ, Who is the one Who gave the authority and keys to the Apostles in the first place. Was He just sitting at the right hand of the Father while this alleged apostasy was going on? NO! What did Jesus say to the disciples before he ascended? Matt. 28:20 "...and, lo, I am with you alway, even onto the end of the world."

Paul confirmed that Christ is the Head of His Church, and the Chief Cornerstone of its foundation. Did Christ stop being the Head and Cornerstone of His Church as He sits next to the Father? NO! But, how could Christ be with us, even onto the end of the world? I don't know exactly what YOUR response would be, but mine would be, by His Spirit.

So, Christ has been here all along, being the Head and Cornerstone of His Church, and He is the giver of authority and keys which he himself holds, being of the Melchizedek priesthood. Therefore, He has always BEEN here, holding the Melchizedek priesthood authority and keys. So, NOW tell me how it's possible that, quoting the PMG, With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth.

There's an apostasy going on from your church as well, and has been from the beginning.

People are apostasizing, individually, but the church as a whole is still united.

Based on a site I read, produced by a LDS, tens of thousands of LDS are resigning annually, and over half of the remaining members are inactive. (The site name has "cumorah" in it.)

Every local church in the true church of Jesus Christ all over the world sustains and follows the apostles as general authorities over the whole church of Christ, generally.

Why don't you and/or your church sustain and follow the true apostles of our Lord, Bob?

Well, Paul, this should be obvious, I would think. I believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet for starters. Therefore, I don't recognize your church as true, and therefore I don't recognize your "apostles" as apostles. Even if I thought there were Apostles today (which I don't), in the succession of the early Church, they wouldn't be the apostles of your church.

And, that's why there are several dozen Mormon denominations. I've calculated it out, and by the time your church is 2,000 years old, you'll have as many denominations then, as we have now.

I assume you must be counting the apostate groups as being among the true church of Christ.

Aaaah, they all think YOUR church is the apostate one. Even your own founding prophet's wife never recognized the Brighamite church as true, but apostate.

I don't count them as being among us, or among the true church of Jesus Christ, Bob.

Of course you don't. But, their feeling is mutual. There are dozens of churches all claiming to be the only true Mormon church on the face of the earth. Yours just happens to be the largest of all of them combined,... if size matters.

This may be what your church teaches, but it's not supported in the Bible. Not that God will force us to do anything, but that we are simply products of our own choices.

Think again. And please think as much as you want to think.

There's nothing for me to think about. I'm going by the Bible, not my opinion. And I've previously proved my point from those scriptures. God is ultimately in control, and is fully within His right to infringe on our God-given, limited agency, at will.

It was not the choice of the people in Noah's day, or of Lot's day, that they be destroyed from the earth because of their unrighteousness.

You said it yourself, Bob. They were destroyed because of their unrighteousness.

... and who made them unrighteous, or who made them make unrighteous choices?

Hint: It wasn't God.

Of course it wasn't God Who caused them to make unrighteous choices. Nevertheless, it wasn't the unrighteous people's choice to be destroyed. If they'd had the power of agency to live on in their unrighteousness, they certainly would have. But, God infringed on their agency, and destroyed them. God can, does and will infringe on man's agency, AT will, if and when it's His will.

PacMan claimed that God never infringes on man's agency. Biblically, that's absolutely false.

God's the boss of our agency. When Christ wooed me to Himself and saved me, I wasn't on a deliberate or serious hunt, seeking for Christ.

But you were the one who did choose to follow Christ, weren't you?

... or did someone else force you to follow him... without your consent?

As I've already testified, God chose me and wooed me (enticed me), making Himself appealing to me, to bring me to the point in my life when I consented and chose Him (John 15:16). It was initiated by Him. Like a "lover" of my soul, he won me over.

Before Christ saves anyone, they are dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

Yes, but that doesn't mean they can't choose to be saved by our Savior.

Really? Why do you think Paul specifically used the analogy of a being "dead"? Why didn 't he say, "half dead" or "weak"? What can a dead man do? Do dead men make decisions...about anything...let alone salvation?

It is their choice to be saved, if they want to be.

Sure, if God chooses first, and woos the soul to WANT to choose Christ.

Therefore, what good can someone do who is spiritually dead?

They can be made alive, by accepting and following our Savior.

Then you didn't read the Ephesians passage I referenced, did you? Who did ALL of the following for the one who is dead in his trespasses and sins?

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Who makes us alive, then saves us by His grace? Read verse 5. Can we make ourselves alive? Absolutely not. Look at the above verses, and tell me precisely what it says that we do. All I see is what GOD did. Don't you?

The only fruit that spiritually dead people can produce is dead fruit.

Yes, but they can choose to be made alive and then produce some good fruit.

Really? How does a dead person make a choice to be alive? Paul used the analogy of a dead person on purpose. Don't you believe that a dead person needs to be raised from the dead and made alive by someone with the power to do so? Who has the power to do so? Not us. We're the dead ones, until God makes us alive in Christ.

Until we are made alive in Christ, and the HG indwells us, we cannot produce good, living fruit.

Right, and who is responsible for our decision to be saved, or made alive?

Answered in verses 4-5.

If a person doesn't choose to be saved can they then blame God for not doing his part to save them?

A person DOES choose to be saved, AFTER God makes them alive together with Christ. Who chooses whom first.

When my wife was not my wife, but simply an attractive young lady across the room at a college-aged Bible-study group, I decided to pursue her as my eventual wife. I chose her. But, I had to woo her, entice her, appeal to her (with more than just my good looks ). Eventually, I won her over, and she chose me, as well. I initiated. We both chose. But, I chose her first.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Understand?

Spiritually dead people don't do works that are pleasing to God.

You are being very repititious.

You keep saying the same thing again and over again with different words.

I'm trying to help you see, but (no offense intended) it's not an easy task.

2 Cor. 3:14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

But, I'm praying for you.

I hope you now understand that you are responsible for the choices you made and are making.

I understand what the scriptures say. Yes, I am responsible for my actions, since God made me alive together with Christ, as the scripture states. Dead men don't make choices. Once God made me alive together with Christ, then I choose Christ.

Without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6). Spiritually dead people don't have faith, and can only sin. That's their only agency...to sin...until they're made alive in Christ.

So anyone with any faith in Jesus Christ is made alive in Jesus Christ, and anyone who doesn't have any faith in him is spiritually dead.

This is not what Paul said to the Ephesians. Read it again, and get the order straight in your mind. First, God has to make a person spiritually alive, because they're dead in their trespasses and sins. This process takes place, BY GOD, as the Father draws them (John 6:44), much like a man draws a woman to become His wife. God chooses the person first, much like a man chooses a woman first. As God/Christ draws that person to Himself, the attraction grows, much like a man who woos a woman, and her attraction to him grows. Once courting is complete, God, through Christ, saves that person, as that person mutually agrees (chooses) to follow Christ as Lord, Master, Savior, much as a woman agrees (chooses) to follow the man as her husband.

Does this help at all?

Do you know how to get faith if you don't have any, Bob?

I do NOW that I have faith and have read God's Word.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

At the time God saved me through Christ, I did not know. As God/Christ wooed me, I was given a measure of faith with which to believe and be saved, much as a woman finally believes that she should marry the man who has wooed her.

If so, then I suppose you know what to tell other people so they can obtain faith.

Read the gospel, and ask God for the faith to believe. When you recieve it, then Christ will spiritually unite you to Himself, as in a marriage. But, remember that Christ is a very jealous Husband, and rightfully so, as any human husband would and should be. Therefore, don't bring anyone else into your life to try to share in that one-on-one relationship. Leave Joseph Smith behind. He's an intruder who attracts your attention away from Christ alone. CHRIST WILL NEVER STAND FOR THAT. But

[owl]

I've had a few threads that had Mr. Betts name on them that unfortunately he was unable to either get to or was unaware of them. Doesn't always work to start a new thread.

Bob was aware of mine, but said he was busy here. I am patiently waiting.

Meanwhile I imported a pertinent quote from here, and will try to do it again from time to time when I need to bump it.

[captain-jack]

Bob was aware of mine, but said he was busy here. I am patiently waiting.

Meanwhile I imported a pertinent quote from here, and will try to do it again from time to time when I need to bump it.

Good luck on that, I hope he can get to them. I know, and not being sarcastic, that he has a large load here with all of our questions.

[consiglieri]

Good luck on that, I hope he can get to them. I know, and not being sarcastic, that he has a large load here with all of our questions.

Bob is careful and troubled about many things;

But one thing is needful: and Captain Jack hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from him.

All the Best!

--Cap'n PP

[captain-jack]

Bob is careful and troubled about many things;

But one thing is needful: and Captain Jack hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from him.

All the Best!

--Cap'n PP

-insert randomly vague pirate reference here-

I couldn't come up with one...

[consiglieri]

-insert randomly vague pirate reference here-

I couldn't come up with one...

How about the first Jack Sparrow line in your signature?

[captain-jack]

How about the first Jack Sparrow line in your signature?

I do like to wave goodbye at opportunities where I can be someone besides the LDS pirate man I am.

[Paul Ray]

I think you're confused by my playing Devil's Advocate in my responses. I'm not saying God did anything of the sort. I don't believe there was such a great or universal or complete (or whatever you want to call it) apostasy as Mormonism claims. But, as long as you LDS are going to believe there WAS an apostasy, because God didn't authorize John to call replacement Apostles for those who were martyred (according to PacMan's argument), then obviously God must ultimately bear the responsibility for the alleged apostasy.

Making God responsible for people who apostasized from God isn't the only option, Bob.

... and it isn't even one of the good ones, IMHO.

Maybe God "wooed" the people who received the teachings of our Lord's apostles and the people who listened just weren't interested in what they were hearing.

Maybe those people thought God himself should come down and do some "wooing".

You do realize we are saying the Church apostasized from our Lord and his apostles, don't you?

... much like how the children of Israel apostasized after leaving the land of Egypt.

These weren't people who had never heard from our Lord through his apostles, Bob.

They received the teachings of our Lord's apostles and weren't all that impressed with what they heard.

What would it take for you to know that we are trying to "woo" you into following our Lord?

What was it that made you decide to become a Christian, yourself, in the first place, Bob?

I first heard someone preach and then I asked God if what they told me was true.

I didn't even believe the Holy Bible was written by the inspiration of God until God personally assured me that it was.

What is it going to take before you simply ask God to let you know what is true?

How much "wooing" are we going to have to do before you actually listen and ask God for his assurance?

Bob: Oh, I've been listening. But, again, different people are saying different things, giving different explanations. Depending on whom I'm responding to, I could see how you might THINK I'm not listening. But I think it's a matter of different responses to different LDS, depending on their response. No doubt, this IS confusing. I struggle with following some of this thread myself, with all the different ideas and opinions being tossed around. Good luck keeping up.

I think it would help you if you simply clarify how you really feel about things, while being nice about it.

You don't have to impress us, Bob, and you don't even have to agree with us.

... even if what we are telling you is the absolute gospel truth.

Bob: In response to YOU, I take you to the PMG manual: Let me try a different tact.

You (and your church) say all authority (priesthood keys) were taken from the earth with the deaths of the Apostles. What about Jesus Christ, Who is the one Who gave the authority and keys to the Apostles in the first place. Was He just sitting at the right hand of the Father while this alleged apostasy was going on? NO! What did Jesus say to the disciples before he ascended? Matt. 28:20 "...and, lo, I am with you alway, even onto the end of the world."

No, our Lord was not just sitting there after he ascended to heaven.

I'm sure he was busy doing a whole lot of "wooing".

... but all the "wooing" in the world can't make somebody choose to listen to him and accept that what he is saying is true... even if/when he speaks to people personally.

I believe you may be hearing from God now while you listen to us talk with you and you are simply brushing it all aside as only our own opinion/belief, without checking with God to see if it may also be God's opinion.

I think you think you are right about everything you now believe to be true, and there is very little anyone can do to make you believe what we are telling you. Even God will not force you to believe what is true, because that would violate your agency. You must choose, for yourself, who it is that you will follow this day.

Bob: Paul confirmed that Christ is the Head of His Church, and the Chief Cornerstone of its foundation. Did Christ stop being the Head and Cornerstone of His Church as He sits next to the Father? NO! But, how could Christ be with us, even onto the end of the world? I don't know exactly what YOUR response would be, but mine would be, by His Spirit.

I agree that our Lord was and is now with us by his spirit, but when we choose to believe him, by believing the Spirit of God, we should be coming together in agreement and be able to see that we are being led by our Lord through our Lord's authorized servants knowing for ourselves who our Lord's authorized servants really are.

But you don't see me as one of Lord's authorized servants, do you? And I don't see you as one either. Maybe, just maybe, it's because neither one of us really is at this time. Maybe the Spirit testifies only when someone is hearing from one of our Lord's authorized servants who is acting in harmony with his instructions. And my Lord hasn't instructed me to talk to you on this website. I am doing this on my own time, for my own enjoyment.

I'm a member of this church I'm in now because God assured me Joseph Smith was one of his prophet, and I also know Gordon Hinckley is one of God's prophets. But to know that they were I had to hear from them, personally, or at least in their own words in writing.

Maybe you won't be able to make any more progress until you listen to one of our Lord's authorized servants who is officially representing our Lord and his church.

But I don't know, maybe not. Maybe that's not the reason you're not believing me or I am not believing what you tell me. It was just an idea that came to me, for some reason.

I think you should simply brace yourself for a major paradigm shift so you'll be ready when you actually see one is warranted, however and whenever God actually does some more work in your life.

Bob: So, Christ has been here all along, being the Head and Cornerstone of His Church, and He is the giver of authority and keys which he himself holds, being of the Melchizedek priesthood. Therefore, He has always BEEN here, holding the Melchizedek priesthood authority and keys. So, NOW tell me how it's possible that, quoting the PMG, With the death of the Apostles, priesthood keys and presiding priesthood authority were taken from the earth.

By the fact that the apostles held priesthood keys and were presiding priesthood authority figures.

With the death of the apostles, the priesthood keys and authority those apostles held was taken from the Earth at least as far as we mortals go. They're not here among us now, are they? If they are, where are they? Please point to one.

You dont' seem to realize there is another way to interpret that statement, and correcty interpreting the scriptures is one of the keys to knowing the truth when you can see it.

Bob: Based on a site I read, produced by a LDS, tens of thousands of LDS are resigning annually, and over half of the remaining members are inactive. (The site name has "cumorah" in it.)

Even if those figures are true, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still being led by our Lord and his authorized servants. And even if the whole Church someday apostasizes, again, in the future, I am now here to say that I know this Church is our Lord's church and we are now being led by our Lord through his apostles.

Bob: Well, Paul, this should be obvious, I would think. I believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet for starters. Therefore, I don't recognize your church as true, and therefore I don't recognize your "apostles" as apostles.

Imagine what would happen if your found out Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God.

That would change your whole world, wouldn't it?

I didn't know he truly was until I found out that he was and the way I found out was by asking God to tell me. You can disagree, of course, but I don't follow God based on anything you, or anyone else, has to tell me... unless God also tells me that you are one of God's authorized servants... and he hasn't.

Bob: Even if I thought there were Apostles today (which I don't), in the succession of the early Church, they wouldn't be the apostles of your church.

Even if you found out that the succession came from our Lord through Peter, James, and John, themselves?

Come now, Bob.

When you say things like that I get the feeling that you really haven't been listening, again.

Paul: I assume you must be counting the apostate groups as being among the true church of Christ. I don't...

Bob: Aaaah, they all think YOUR church is the apostate one. Even your own founding prophet's wife never recognized the Brighamite church as true, but apostate.

And that matters to me... how?

I do feel kinda sad that other people aren't really members of what I know is God's church, but then again, I know they would be if they simply accepted God and his true teachings from his servants.

In the end, I think we'll get what God wants to give us based on our choices to either follow or not follow our Lord.

Bob: Of course you don't. But, their feeling is mutual. There are dozens of churches all claiming to be the only true Mormon church on the face of the earth. Yours just happens to be the largest of all of them combined,... if size matters.

It's more than size, Bob.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the original church that God established through Joseph Smith, which itself is a restoration of the early church that apostasized.

Every other church is an apostate group of the true church of Jesus Christ.

Bob: There's nothing for me to think about. I'm going by the Bible, not my opinion. And I've previously proved my point from those scriptures.

I think you're simply giving your opinion concerning how the words in the Bible should be understood, or interpreted. Everybody does that. Why should I think your interpretation of the Bible is the correct interpretation? I have God to tell me how to intepret his words, and I know how to see who is in agreement with God.

Bob: God is ultimately in control, and is fully within His right to infringe on our God-given, limited agency, at will.

The only way God "infringes" (if you want to call it that, I would rather say "gets involved") with our God-given agency is by giving us choices to choose from which then result in certain consequences.

I've learned a lot by God's method. How about you, Bob?

Bob: Of course it wasn't God Who caused them to make unrighteous choices. Nevertheless, it wasn't the unrighteous people's choice to be destroyed. If they'd had the power of agency to live on in their unrighteousness, they certainly would have.

They did have the agency to live on in their unrighteous choices. They did, and God simply removed them from this Earth. Choice followed by consequences.

Bob: But, God infringed on their agency, and destroyed them. God can, does and will infringe on man's agency, AT will, if and when it's His will.

But it never will be God's will to infringe on our agency. He simply expects us to face the resulting consequences.

Bob: PacMan claimed that God never infringes on man's agency. Biblically, that's absolutely false.

Think again, please. Please, please, please keep thinking. I hope my "wooing" skills are improving.

Bob: As I've already testified, God chose me and wooed me (enticed me), making Himself appealing to me, to bring me to the point in my life when I consented and chose Him (John 15:16). It was initiated by Him. Like a "lover" of my soul, he won me over.

Hmm. I wonder if our Lord will now woo you through our Lord's apostles?

Have you ever seriously tried to learn what they teach, based on what they say, themselves?

I suppose it still might not matter. There have been those who did and still apostasized anyway.

Bob: Why do you think Paul specifically used the analogy of a being "dead"? Why didn 't he say, "half dead" or "weak"? What can a dead man do? Do dead men make decisions...about anything...let alone salvation?

Hmm. How does a person know if they are dead or alive?

Are you dead or alive, now? If you are alive now, how would I know that?

I think you're alive on some level, but not fully, honestly, otherwise you would see what is true.

Bob: A person DOES choose to be saved, AFTER God makes them alive together with Christ. Who chooses whom first.

God chooses us, and then we choose him. I'm clear on that concept.

How do you think we choose Christ if not by choosing to accept what Christ tells us is true?

Bob: When my wife was not my wife, but simply an attractive young lady across the room at a college-aged Bible-study group, I decided to pursue her as my eventual wife. I chose her. But, I had to woo her, entice her, appeal to her (with more than just my good looks ). Eventually, I won her over, and she chose me, as well. I initiated. We both chose. But, I chose her first. Understand?

Yes, I understand.

Do you think there is anything we or our Lord's apostles can do to help in the "wooing" process?

What did it take for you to accept Christ to the point that you have now accepted him?

You do realize you're not done yet learning all of the truth now, don't you?

I think you first have to find some truth and then somehow know that it is true.

What can we do to facilitate that process?

Bob: I'm trying to help you see, but (no offense intended) it's not an easy task. But, I'm praying for you.

Heh, I feel the same way, and I am praying for you too, my brother Bob.

Does this help at all?

Bob: ... remember that Christ is a very jealous Husband, and rightfully so, as any human husband would and should be. Therefore, don't bring anyone else into your life to try to share in that one-on-one relationship.

He isn't the type of husband that gets jealous if we have other friends, Bob.

But don't worry, you will never replace my husband.

Bob: Leave Joseph Smith behind. He's an intruder who attracts your attention away from Christ alone. CHRIST WILL NEVER STAND FOR THAT.

He will if Joseph Smith was/is one of his messengers. Just ask God.

[consiglieri]

Leave Joseph Smith behind. He's an intruder who attracts your attention away from Christ alone. CHRIST WILL NEVER STAND FOR THAT.

Would Christ stand for leaving behind all the other prophets whose writings are in the Old Testament?

Would Christ stand for leaving behind all the other apostles whose writings are in the New Testament?

It doesn't sound like your Christ stands for much.

I am thinking maybe you worship a different Jesus.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Bob Betts]

One quick note before I go back to taking questions in the order that they are received. A rumor about my being "troubled about many things," is greatly exaggerated. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

[owl]

But I take it that the statement that you are careful was OK.

[Dale]

I have looked for evidence of a partial apostasy only in the church. Finding a pure Evangelical like church preserving essential Christian doctrine until the reformation would interest me. Such a group must not accept the Pope. It could not believe in a ministerial priesthood. It must believe in grace alone. It must believe in the Bible only as the final authority in faith, and practice. It must teach the creedal Trinity without teaching any non-creedal Trinity ideas regarded as heresy by Evangelical's. Anything this pure faithful church would teach must not conflict with modern Evangelicalism.

[Bob Betts]

I have read it, but I do not take it out of context as you do. No LDS person rejects the notion that it is the free gift of grace that is the operation that saves (faith and works being merely requirements).

Because grace is what God has done for us that we cannot do for oursleves, we do not boast of the Bible required works. Jesus himself proclaimed that good works are required for salvation (Matthew 25:31-46).

Oh, I missed Matt. 25:31-46.

Yes you did. And you;re still missing it as all you have is a denial and you have not really even addressed it.

No, he said nothing about anyone already being saved (as if there were such a thing). He simply gathered the sheep who had done the works on his right and the goats who had not done the works on his left and sent the ones on the left to hell because they had not done the works and sent the ones on the right to heaven because they had done the works.

Who do you think His sheep are? Jesus said, John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

Unbelievers are not sheep. They're goats. "Sheep" is analogous to those people who have been saved by the blood of the Shepherd. The "sheep" who do the works of the Father are His sheep (Eph. 2:10). Goats are the ones who do not do the works of the Father, because they don't belong to Him. What is done that is not of faith in Christ is sin (Rom. 14:23).

Therefore, Jesus said works are required for salvation.

He never said that at all...not once. Not in Matt. 25:31-46. Not in any passage. You're making an assumption, while not taking the rest of the NT scriptures about salvation into consideration or context.

Above, you said that "grace is what God has done for us that we cannot do for oursleves." You do not understand what grace is. Grace is not what God does, it's what He is in His nature, and gives to us: unmerited and and undeserved favor. Contrary to what your religion teaches and believes, grace cannot be earned. It's free from God (Eph. 2:8-9). Not only are works not required for God's unmerited favor, works cannot buy God's favor.

[PacMan]

Bob,

Rather than derail the thread, I started a new one concerning Ephesians 4 (just skip the question here). I believe you would find it a terribly troublesome scripture, so know there's a dedicated forum to discuss it with substantive ties to the instant conversation.

Ciao,

PacMan

[juliann]

Unbelievers are not sheep. They're goats. "Sheep" is analogous to those people who have been saved by the blood of the Shepherd. The "sheep" who do the works of the Father are His sheep (Eph. 2:10). Goats are the ones who do not do the works of the Father, because they don't belong to Him. What is done that is not of faith in Christ is sin (Rom. 14:23).

What are the converts? Shoats?

Anyone who has any doubts about an apostasy needs to run not walk to the nearest bookstore and get Voting About God in Early Church Councils by Ramsay MacMullen. If anyone can read this book and think God was behind the power plays, rioting and killing there is no hope for them. MacMullen estimates 25,000+ deaths in the two and a quarter centuries following Nicaea. (p 56). And it was the competing groups who were killing each other not the ruler. The scandal is that this is ignored..."the evidence denied being so abundant and so strident." (p58).

I think this is the problem with apostasy debates....the information has not been used even by scholars. I don't think in the current climate that EVs can depend on a whitewash much longer...as this new book demonstrates.

The burden is theirs to demonstrate how this debacle can be attributed to God .. it is not ours to demonstrate that theology and doctrine was turned over to mob rule.

[PacMan]

Bob,

Unbelievers are not sheep. They're goats. "Sheep" is analogous to those people who have been saved by the blood of the Shepherd. The "sheep" who do the works of the Father are His sheep (Eph. 2:10). Goats are the ones who do not do the works of the Father, because they don't belong to Him. What is done that is not of faith in Christ is sin (Rom. 14:23).

This begs two questions:

1) Are all unbelievers rejected to the Lord's left-hand because He didn't see fit to allow many of them to even HEAR of Him? Wouldn't that make Him a respecter of persons?

2) Who then, are His lambs?

PacMan

[captain-jack]

He never said that at all...not once. Not in Matt. 25:31-46. Not in any passage. You're making an assumption, while not taking the rest of the NT scriptures about salvation into consideration or context.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Salvation cannot be had without faith, faith cannot be without works. Easy enough to follow.

Above, you said that "grace is what God has done for us that we cannot do for oursleves." You do not understand what grace is. Grace is not what God does, it's what He is in His nature, and gives to us: unmerited and and undeserved favor. Contrary to what your religion teaches and believes, grace cannot be earned. It's free from God (Eph. 2:8-9). Not only are works not required for God's unmerited favor, works cannot buy God's favor.

Ah yes, telling us what we teach. I was never taught that His grace is earned, or that I can gain favor through works. I was taught to show my faith through works, works that Christ taught, those being charity and love. 30 pages and still can't come to any type of agreement to end the conversation?

[Mark Beesley]

Above, you said that "grace is what God has done for us that we cannot do for oursleves." You do not understand what grace is. Grace is not what God does, it's what He is in His nature, and gives to us: unmerited and and undeserved favor. Contrary to what your religion teaches and believes, grace cannot be earned. It's free from God (Eph. 2:8-9). Not only are works not required for God's unmerited favor, works cannot buy God's favor.

I see where the topic of salvation by grace has once again raised its head. Before engaging in any lengthy discussion with Bob Betts on the topic, LDS Christians might want to review this thread on the Concerned Christians Message Board.

You might also want to consider Bob's opinion about us and our faith, and I quote:

No Mormon will enter into the Kingdom of God, because the Mormon belief-system is 100% false, because JS was a 100% fraud. The doctrines are 100% wrong. IF you have spiritual ears, please listen.

Bob Betts, What's Wrong With the Book of Mormon, p. 9 (9/29/2006)

[Dale]

With Ephesian's 2:8-9-I don't believe acts of human effort save us. But the good works we are created in Christ Jesus arn't acts of human effort. Rather they are yielding ourselve's to God allowing Him to work in us by his grace. (1 Cor.15:10)

Actually salvation from outer darkness doesn't require keeping Celestial law. Lot's of person's in the Telestial, or Terrestrial kingdom's will be saved by grace not because they merited it. The keeping of Celestial law is only required to get into the Celestial kingdom. 2 Nephi 25:23 teaches that even our best efforts are insufficient for any salvation. Matthew 5:48 requires us to be perfect now not some time in the afterlife. Anybody not 100% perfect at the time of death would be guilty of all without unmerited grace. (Jame's 2:10) Our original debt with God has to be paid in order for anyone to be saved from outer darkness, or hell.

Celestial law is not to be confused with the type of law Jame's talk's about. When you break Celestial law you arn't auto-matically guilty of breaking Telestial, or terrestrial law. This is because the atonement has permanantly saved from outer darkness those eligible to pass the first and last judgement's. Celestial law is a law of grace not one of the cold hard law of Moses.(Deut 27:26; Jame's 2:10)

[Bob Betts]

Apologies. Quotes seem not to be working for you or me at the moment.

You answered no questions. You did prove that there must a universal apostasy sometime after the orignal Apostles. And you obfuscated.

I went to a lot of trouble to demonstrate that the details of Rev. 13:7, and much of the rest of the chapter, do not fit into the history of the post-apostolic era. If you don't agree, fine. But, no LDS to date has demonstrated that the details of Rev. 13 fit at all.

Then we'll give you a primer.....

Where are the doctrines of degrees of salvation and the preaching of the gospel and salvation of those who are dead (passed on to the next life) in modern nonLDS Christianity? They were extant in ECF doctrine. What happened?

I do not ever defend, refute or discuss the writings ECFs. I'm a biblicist, not an interpreter of of post-apostolic writings. Go back to the Bible to discuss the viability of doctrines. Not the opinions of non-canonical writers.

How so? Here is the verse set.....

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:12-14

Paul talks about several things he would like to apprehend and attain to, starting with verse nine. But, he says not one word about attaining or apprehending salvation

There is something else besides the resurrection of the dead that he is trying to apprehend. What is it? What is this high calling that is the prize he presses to?

What "mark" does every follower of Christ press toward for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ? What did God promise to every true believer? Eternal life in heaven with God. What does this have to do with God giving the free gift of salvation by grace through faith, not of ourselves and not of works? I think you're very confused about the gospel difference between being saved by good works, which is not possible, and being saved in order to DO good works. Salvation and grace cannot be earned, as your religion believes they must.

Why would Jesus say that you must endure to the end first? Matthew 24:13.

Jesus didn't use the word "first," nor did He imply it. You're adding to what He said. How can anyone endure until the end, without the power of the HG dwelling in them? I'm enduring until the end in the power of the HG, rather than my own strength. The evidence that I've been saved, is that i'm enduring to the end. The FACT that I've been saved, is found in all the verses about how salvation is gained by grace through faith, not of ourselves and not of works.

Why does Paul say that to be made partakers of Christ we must hold our confidence steadfast until the end? Hebrews 3:14.

Because the evidence that we ARE (present tense, as Paul put it) partakers of Christ is that we hold the beginning of our confidence in Christ stedfast until the end, as he said. There are inposters in the Church, you know. So, not all who are in the Church will hold stedfast until the end. Those who do, will prove they ARE partakers with Christ. Who do you think Paul was talking to, saved people or unsaved poeple? Saved people, of course. The people of God, Christ's followers. His faithful children.

Why would Paul ask us to take care of (fear) our belief lest we fall short of the promise of entering into God's rest? Hebrews 4:1?

Read on in verses 2-3 for the answer.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Who is "them" in verse 2? "Them" is not "us" whom Paul is talking to. What happened to "them"? The preached word didn't profit "them" because they didn't have faith. But, what did Paul say "we" who "have believed" (past tense) do? We enter into His rest.

You're not reading God's word in context, and you're missing the obvious. Read the verses around a verse, rather than cherry-picking one verse out of its intended context.

A

nd why would a Greek Lexicon (Strongs and Thayers in this case) show 'salvation' in many (if not all) of the verses to gave to actually be a promise of future reward depending on conditions met?

Because God DOES have expectations on His children. Those who are slothful prove that their faith is dead, if they don't demonstrate their faith with works. That's what James was talking about in chapter 2:14ff, and specifically in verse 18 when he said, "I will show you my faith BY my works." Read verse 14 to the end of Jame's chapter. If you have trouble seeing my point, I'll help you. Simply put, faith without works is dead, being alone (17). If faith is dead, then the person is not saved (verse 14). Only people whom God has been made alive with Christ are saved (Eph. 2:1-10).

Even the BoM mimics the Bible in stating: Alma 34:31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and aharden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the bday of your csalvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and dharden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.

Incorrect as the context in the next verse states that now is the time for the Zoramites to prepare to meet God (having been preached to, they have their chance before them). These people are soon to go to war and many will shortly meet their maker.

Of course your own logic has set up conflicts between the Bible verses we have mentioned above.

I'll let that last comment slide, since you have yet to have the last word on anything we've dicussed.

The Zoramites are not mentioned in chapter 34. But, even if you can make a case for them being the subject of those verses in Alma 34, you cannot make a case for Paul telling the same thing to the allegedly Zoramites, in 2 Cor. 6:2, who were on the other side of the planet.

A verse not to be taken out of context with all other salvation-related scriptures, as if this is the only verse on the subject. If you exclude all other salvation-related scriptures, sure you'll assume that salvation isn't assured until such a determination of enduring to the end.

Indeed. But our doctrine has incorporated all verses on the subject and even the original meanings whereas yours has not and is merely selective.

Okay, you're no reading the same Bible I am, because every verse on the salvation of the saints is either present or past tense. I cannot communicate lgically with someone who won't address the verses I've brought up on the subject, but instead, merely makes unsubstantiated claims like this.

But, if you include this verse with all other salvation-related scriptures, and in context, then enduring to the end is one of several expectations on those who already have been saved, along with loving God, loving your neighbor, doing the will of the Father, etc.

It is presented as a command/requirement. Certainly that is what expectations are anyway. I'm glad you agree.....

Yes, expectations on the saved people of God, not on unsaved people who are not (yet, if ever) of God.

These things all demonstrate that one really HAS been saved, not that they won't be saved until they do those things. Salvation is secured to those who have been saved, unless they prove they weren't really saved by NOT fulfilling the expectations of the Christian life. This is precisely what James was talking about in his letter, chapter 2:14ff. Faith without works is dead faith. A faith that IS alive in Christ WILL be a saved life of good works, of loving God and neighbor, and enduring to the end.

Ah! The typical EV out. He wasn't really saved. The OSAS heresy. Peter has some words for you....

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2 Peter 2:20

And, Jesus has some words for you:

Matthew 13:18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

The "seed" is the message of the kingdom. Jesus tells of 4 different kinds of people that the seed (message) is sown in. Only one takes root in good soil, hearing and understanding the word, and subsequently bearing fruit.

Which type of person did Peter describe, similarly to the type which Jesus described?

Peter: one who is again entangled in the pollutions of the world.

Jesus: one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it.

Those without true faith, can only last so long, before they show their true self. The tares among the wheat. The wolves among the sheep. The types of ground in which the seed won't take root and bear fruit.

Here, according to EV logic, are the truly saved becomming unsaved.

I never said that.

Even the angels of God are not spared (vs 4).

True. Which was very long ago, and has nothing to do with us. He was using the angels as an example of how God spares no one who lives in sin. So?

I'll tell you what. Since you're now mocking me toward the end of this post, and I'm not inclined to converse with mockers, I'm not going to respond to you any longer, unless you cease. I know your BoM tells you not to mock your brother. I've been only respectful toward you. If you cannot reciprocate. Then please don't bother.

[consiglieri]

One quick note before go back to taking question in order that they are received. A rumor about my being "troubled about many things," is greatly exaggerated. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

Ta-Dah!

I knew it would happen, folks! It was just a matter of time.

On 10/12/07, in post No. 408, Bob Betts wrote to me:

"You'll keep hammering away on me, I predict, but I will no longer be responding to you."

Later that same day, Bob confirmed the above by a promise, in post No. 411:

"Thus, my promise that I would no longer be responding to him."

Our very own Paul Ray warned Mr. Betts about the advisability of so rash and impetuous a move:

"You may regret that decision later, Bob."

But Bob was adamant, intractable and immoveable. He would no longer respond to consiglieri . . . for almost a full 10-days.

On October 20, in post #583, I wrote:

"Bob is careful and trouble about many things."

On October 21, 2007 at 1:37 p.m., Bob broke his word, by posting:

A rumor about my being "troubled about many things," is greatly exaggerated. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.

Not only did Bob break his promise about not responding to me anymore, he did it in such a way as to reveal he has not a clue regarding the allusion I was making.

I imagine that there are at least four-and-twenty Mormons on this board who can identify the allusion off the top of their heads, in order to clarify the matter for Bob, so that he will thereafter "know what that's supposed to mean."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri (Italian for "Glamdring")