Financial Transparency

[MamaBug]

From the outside looking in, I've always thought it was quirky that the LDS church did not have full financial disclosure. I can never tell if the it is a result of a hierarchical system, fear it would cause a bunch of second-guessing on the part of parishoners, belief that any expense (no matter how justified) would have to be defended against critics, or if to do so would require a higher-level of accounting than what they feel is necessary.

I like that my church provides full financial statements each year. It's not that I think they mis-spend the money, but I like to see what the needs are and where the money goes.

One question: what is all the negativity with regard to paid ministers? My priest is certainly not raking it in, especially in comparison to the demands of the job.

[structurecop]

One question: what is all the negativity with regard to paid ministers? My priest is certainly not raking it in, especially in comparison to the demands of the job.

Somewhere along the line, someone decided that a paid ministry constituted "priestcraft" (even though General Authorities receive stipends) and that such a thing was inherently bad.

Even as a member of the Church, I disagree. A paid ministry allows more time for the minister to spend attending to the spiritual needs of the congregation, encourages more in-depth study and better teaching on the part of the clergyman, and usually requires the clergy to have a better religious education. I actually started a thread on this several months ago.

[It occurs to me . . .]

Once the Church starts having significant instances of corruption, abuse of funds, etc. THEN the Church's finances should be "transparent". Until then, I'm happy the funds are kept sacred, and not fodder for it's enemy's within and without.

HOW would anyone know if there is corruption, abuse of funds etc, IF the finances are not transparent???

[battlefieldboy]

Our money truely does go in its entirety too Gods work. not to pay the the leaders mortagage.

Yeah I can't wait for the church mall to be completed. I hope its open on Sunday.

Personally when I was a full tithe payer I really didn't care what happened to the tithe money I sent in, but my wife was a branch manager for a bank here in Vegas in the early 90's and there was an occasion where our Bishop had to deal with her to find out what one of his counselors did with some of the tithing money that had been collected (he had used a substantial amount for a "personal loan". When she shared that story with me it did reaffirm that the church was responsible and did keep track of tithing money, although no criminal charges where pressed against the counselor but he did repay the money. I don't think the church uses money in an extravagant way it would be nice to see the church give an accounting so its members can see the good it does with the money.

[OMWO2]

Obiwan Posted Today, 01:22 PM

Once the Church starts having significant instances of corruption, abuse of funds, etc. THEN the Church's finances should be "transparent". Until then, I'm happy the funds are kept sacred, and not fodder for it's enemy's within and without.

I am glad you retain such faith. The fact is that "waiting" for something to happen is not what I am hoping for.

Severian Posted Today, 01:40 PM

I thought the issue was why those other Churches should provide financial disclosure, not why the LDS Church should.

As I have stated several times, I feel that ALL churches should disclose finances to the public. Unfortunately the LDS church falls in the category of a church who refuses ANY disclosure.

cdowis Posted Today, 02:04 PM

The church has a large group of unpaid priesthood (ministers) and it is from this large body that the church leadership is drawn. In many cases, those leaders themselves are independently wealthy. In any case, they do not see the church as a source of income (lay vs professional clergy).

The church has a large, centralized infrastructure managing its financial affairs, including professional auditors and financial managers, many of whom have vast experience in those areas.

Now, my "faith" is based on the fact that the church's finances is watched over by those church leaders and professional, regardless of whether this is the true church. Unless there is a vast conspiracy by those leaders and professionals, I see little opportunity for abuse.

Now I compare this to a relative de-centralized organization with professional clergy who, for the most part, have always depended on contributions from their church to support them. The church is governed by a board which is, as I understand, primarily responsible for watching over the finances. I also have "faith" in this system insofar as the board has professional financial managers, but that may not always be the case.

So, in the church mentioned, I see that public disclosure as additional assurance of the proper use of the finances, relative to the sophisticated, centralized system in the LDS church.

How do you know that "many leaders are independently wealthy and do not see the church as a source of income"? Since the LDS church provides no financial disclosure how can you say that the difference is lay vs professional? My position is not whether the funds are distributed in accordance to the policies and procedures but rather what are the policies and procedures. I respectfully disagree that having "professional financial managers" provides or ensures good use of funds, i.e. Enron, Worldcom etc... However, this is not about the possible abuse of funds as much as it is about disclosure.

DH Posted Today, 03:07 PM

Don't they regularly present an independent auditor's report in General Conference (or am I imagining things?)? Sure they don't go into details about the Church's finances, but they have the auditor examine the finances to assure us that everything is on the up and up.

Daniel

Again, the Church Auditing department is "independent" of other church departments but not a true "independent" auditor in the literal sense.

MamaBug Posted Today, 03:33 PM

From the outside looking in, I've always thought it was quirky that the LDS church did not have full financial disclosure. I can never tell if the it is a result of a hierarchical system, fear it would cause a bunch of second-guessing on the part of parishoners, belief that any expense (no matter how justified) would have to be defended against critics, or if to do so would require a higher-level of accounting than what they feel is necessary.

I like that my church provides full financial statements each year. It's not that I think they mis-spend the money, but I like to see what the needs are and where the money goes.

One question: what is all the negativity with regard to paid ministers? My priest is certainly not raking it in, especially in comparison to the demands of the job.

I think you may be closer to the truth then most others. I personally think if members knew just how much money was generated it would cause the less faithful, who might be struggling financially, to not pay an "honest" tithe. If ANY church were on the verge of bankruptcy I could see full disclosure as a means to generate funds from members.

It occurs to me . . . Posted Today, 04:51 PM

HOW would anyone know if there is corruption, abuse of funds etc, IF the finances are not transparent???

Again, I do not think there is abuse. I do however follow the principle that when you have nothing to hide don't hide!

[cartoon bluejay]

Yeah I can't wait for the church mall to be completed. I hope its open on Sunday.

Yeah - this is something that really bothers me. A mall. Why a mall? Isn't it going to cost 2 billion dollars? I'm not sure. I know the church already has a fantastic welfare program and they give to third world countries very generously and it's all good but I keep thinking about Schindlers List at the end where he looks at his watch and realizes he could have given more to say more lives. It's like that for me - why so much money on a mall when there's so much more that be done for the poor and needy?

[cartoon bluejay]

I do however follow the principle that when you have nothing to hide don't hide!

This is something that bothers me as well. I don't understand why they're hiding.

[T-Shirt]

Yeah - this is something that really bothers me. A mall. Why a mall? Isn't it going to cost 2 billion dollars? I'm not sure. I know the church already has a fantastic welfare program and they give to third world countries very generously and it's all good but I keep thinking about Schindlers List at the end where he looks at his watch and realizes he could have given more to say more lives. It's like that for me - why so much money on a mall when there's so much more that be done for the poor and needy?

If you had $1,000.00 that you wanted to give to a charity and then found out that you could invest that $1,000.00 and after a period of time you could give your charity $1,000.00 every month indefinitely as a result of the returns on you original investment, which way would you chose to proceed? In addition, if the person with the $1,000.00 was someone else, would you criticize him for investing the money instead of giving it directly to the charity?

T-Shirt

[LifeOnaPlate]

TITHING MONEY ISN'T BEING USED ON THE SALT LAKE CITY PROJECT.

[MorningStar]

If the church did have full disclosure, people would just accuse it of falsifying documents if everything looked good. We just can't win. People will always have something to complain about. Either we spend too much on our buildings or our buildings are boring. Some people say our leaders are perverts, others say they're prudes. The church just isn't going to live to please everyone. It's impossible.

[structurecop]

TITHING MONEY ISN'T BEING USED ON THE SALT LAKE CITY PROJECT.

How exactly do you know that *no* tithing money is being used on the Salt Lake City project?

[sunstoned]

Yeah - this is something that really bothers me. A mall. Why a mall? Isn't it going to cost 2 billion dollars? I'm not sure. I know the church already has a fantastic welfare program and they give to third world countries very generously and it's all good but I keep thinking about Schindlers List at the end where he looks at his watch and realizes he could have given more to say more lives. It's like that for me - why so much money on a mall when there's so much more that be done for the poor and needy?

How much does the church give to 3rd world countries? We don't know because all of the church does not publish its financials. I have traveled Africa, and I have 2 relatives who are serving church missions there. I see little in the way of real aid that has come from the church.

[MorningStar]

Yeah - this is something that really bothers me. A mall. Why a mall? Isn't it going to cost 2 billion dollars? I'm not sure. I know the church already has a fantastic welfare program and they give to third world countries very generously and it's all good but I keep thinking about Schindlers List at the end where he looks at his watch and realizes he could have given more to say more lives. It's like that for me - why so much money on a mall when there's so much more that be done for the poor and needy?

I remember reading that the church already owned part of the property that the mall is on, so it made sense to purchase it in order to keep control of what kind of business sits on it. It is better financially to keep something on there that makes money than knock it down. Maybe they will make it into something else in the future. Who knows. The church is trying to preserve the atmosphere around Temple Square.

[sunstoned]

TITHING MONEY ISN'T BEING USED ON THE SALT LAKE CITY PROJECT.

It all started with tithing money. Anyone can play with the books, especially if they keep them secret. The reality is that there is 2 billion that is not going to help the homeless or feed the poor, or do any of those Christian type things. Since SLC feels its important to keep secret what it does with donations from its members, we will never really know how much it spends on real humanitarian aid. My guess is it is quite a bit less than 2B.

[charity]

Another thread where all the tithe payers don't care, and everyone else is jealous.

Well said. If the mega-church members want to demand to see how their leaders spend their money, that is their right.

I know the Church leaders are doing the work of God. I am totally uninterested in the numbers.

[OMWO2]

If you had $1,000.00 that you wanted to give to a charity and then found out that you could invest that $1,000.00 and after a period of time you could give your charity $1,000.00 every month indefinitely as a result of the returns on you original investment, which way would you chose to proceed? In addition, if the person with the $1,000.00 was someone else, would you criticize him for investing the money instead of giving it directly to the charity?

T-Shirt

First off most smart investors know that there is no such thing as a sure thing. That said, I would choose to give the $1,000 to charity right away. I'll ask you this, would the LDS church criticize a member for investing their tithes instead of giving it directly to the church?

[OMWO2]

I remember reading that the church already owned part of the property that the mall is on, so it made sense to purchase it in order to keep control of what kind of business sits on it. It is better financially to keep something on there that makes money than knock it down. Maybe they will make it into something else in the future. Who knows. The church is trying to preserve the atmosphere around Temple Square.

So what is the "atmosphere" around temple square and how does a shopping mall "preserve" it?

[OMWO2]

Well said. If the mega-church members want to demand to see how their leaders spend their money, that is their right.

I know the Church leaders are doing the word of God. I am totally uninterested in the numbers.

Charity - I do admire your "disinterest" in the numbers and a "knowledge" that they are doing the word of God. I too "hope" that they are doing the right thing and that there is no hanky panky! I still think full disclosure is needed though.

[battlefieldboy]

First off most smart investors know that there is no such thing as a sure thing. I'll ask you this, would the LDS church criticize a member for investing their tithes instead of giving it directly to the church?

How about just taking the tithing check to Vegas and letting it ride on red? Then you would be a Holy Roller LOL

With all the comments I have seen on how much the church "gives" in crisis situations why don't they just give members an accounting of the money/goods/service provided to LDS members VS World members It would be interesting to see what impact the church has for change when they put their muscle behind a cause or catastrophe.

[charity]

Charity - I do admire your "disinterest" in the numbers and a "knowledge" that they are doing the word of God. I too "hope" that they are doing the right thing and that there is no hanky panky! I still think full disclosure is needed though.

When I have a confirmation by the Spirit that these are the Lord's chosen leaders, and I trust them to be leading His Church, wouldn't it be silly to distrust them in financial matters?

[spinner]

With regards to the mall, I remember reading an article in the South China Morning Post (sorry, not available online) a few days ago about the world's largest mall, recently completed in central Shanghai. Total cost: US$400 million. And while I realize labor is cheaper in China than in SLC, I also know a bit about investment in Asia, and trust me in a city like Shanghai, things are not nearly as cheap as you might think.

[buraianto]

When I have a confirmation by the Spirit that these are the Lord's chosen leaders, and I trust them to be leading His Church, wouldn't it be silly to distrust them in financial matters?

We do not believe that our leaders are infallible.

[OMWO2]

When I have a confirmation by the Spirit that these are the Lord's chosen leaders, and I trust them to be leading His Church, wouldn't it be silly to distrust them in financial matters?

But is asking for disclosure really about "distrust"? I do not think it is.

[cdowis]

One question: what is all the negativity with regard to paid ministers? My priest is certainly not raking it in, especially in comparison to the demands of the job.

The point I was making was that the minister has a profession, a career in preaching and ministering in the church. This creates a mindset of seeing the church as a source of income, a largess, a profession. This creates, IMO, an atmosphere where there is a great temptation for financial abuse. "Look at how many people are now coming to church. I have increased membership by 30%." etc

The LDS leaders have served in voluntary, unpaid service. In many cases, they are financially independent.

You cannot see the difference in how this would affect their attitude and behaviour? The largess vs stipend mindset?

We do not believe that our leaders are infallible.

Of course. That is why the church has financial controls, overseen by multiple individuals including church leaders and financial professionals.

The real issue is not whether there are financial irregularities, but whether it is the public's business how much income the church has and how it spends that income. It then becomes just one more weapon in the arsenel of the enemies of the church using misstatements and distortions.

They do not want to be "informed", they want another weapon.

[buraianto]

The real issue is not whether there are financial irregularities, but whether it is the public's business how much income the church has and how it spends that income.

...

They do not want to be "informed", they want another weapon.

I am a member of this public. I do want to be informed. I don't want another weapon.