Literalists And The Flood, Etc.

[HiJolly]

I merely offer up the idea for discussion. If others wiser and more spiritually discerning

than myself disagree, then perhaps their command of Hebrew, history and theology is better

than mine. After all, for me this stuff is just a hobby and not an occupation.

BYU graduate Hebrew experts -- we need your imput here.

UD

I never attended BYU, nor am I an 'expert' in Hebrew, but I love your post. Excellent. Thank you, and I do indeed understand your point about the 'later' textual insertions. Well done.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Ok, so what's more important to you, knowing that what you believe is actually true, or deciding to accept certain things that fly in the face of mountains of evidence in order that certain beliefs, which you cherish, can remain plausible in your mind? That's really the $64 question in all of this.

Here's about how it goes with some people: "I have to believe in a literal Adam and Eve being the first humans, because if I don't, then the rest of my beliefs don't make sense, and I want them to keep making sense, so I'm going to believe in a literal Adam and Eve as first humans."

Are you able to step back enough, and look at your beliefs, and your attitudes, dispassionately enough to see if that's what you're really doing or not?

"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

I could give a 2 hour sermon on that one, fully in context of your comments, Sethbag. But, do be gentle.

HiJolly

[Beowulf]

I wrote: Jul 17 2007, 12:36 AM) *

3. I do not believe in a universal flood.

Does this make me apostate?

Master Mahan wrote (as chivalrously as possible):

Sorry, Beowulf, but I would say, yes.

I don't know you, so don't get upset. However, we are to accept scripture as the word of God, and that's exactly what it states...there was a universal flood...no metaphor here.

Me again: Sorry, but it does not. Knowledge about the Age of the Earth, when Adam and Eve lived, the Flood, the Tower of Babel and other early stories, are not essential elements for being in good standing in the LDS church.

But as I explained above, I do not reject the Flood story out of hand. I believe that Noah really lived, and that a disaster of terrible proportions occurred to him and his surroundings. That puts me miles away from those silly secularists who reject out of hand all ancient stories simply because it does not fit their scientific worldview.

Read my explanation more carefully. The Flood is no metaphor. However, it was a recreation of the Creation in Genesis, in reverse, and the description of the Water gives it away. It was Chaos water, not Ordinary water (and Chaos water exists above Heaven and below the Earth... what do you think this stuff is? I have my theories, but it is definitely NOT H2O) and it did not rise because of rainfall (although it rained, too).

Beowulf

[Uncle Dale]

I never attended BYU, nor am I an 'expert' in Hebrew, but I love your post. Excellent. Thank you,

and I do indeed understand your point about the 'later' textual insertions. Well done.

HiJolly

Ah shucks and geewhilikers!

Yer just sayin' that cuz it's true...

d'Unk

[California]

A Rabbi answered me:

Dear Eva,

Thank you for your inquiry.

First, I believe that your citation does not quite match the Hebrew Bible. The song that the Israelites sang at the sea runs from 15:1 through 15:19. The chariots are mentioned a couple of times in the song.

Regardless, our belief is that this records the song of the event and no part was added later.

In fact, the entire Torah was dictated by God to Moses who wrote it down.

With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi M. Younger

Aish.com

[JNclone]

A Rabbi answered me:

[...]

In fact, the entire Torah was dictated by God to Moses who wrote it down.

With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi M. Younger

Aish.com

Must have been a bit unsettling for Moses when he got to this bit:

"Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the landâ?¦ Then the LORD said to him, â??This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, "I will give it to your descendants"; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.â?? So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Although Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his vigor abated" [Deut. 34:1, 4-7]

I'd have dropped the pen at that point. And I should certainly have avoided Pisgah in my afternoon walks thereafter ...

[Uncle Dale]

Must have been a bit unsettling for Moses when he got to this bit:

"Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the landâ?¦ Then the LORD said to him, â??This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, "I will give it to your descendants"; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.â?? So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Although Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his vigor abated" [Deut. 34:1, 4-7]

I'd have dropped the pen at that point. And I should certainly have avoided Pisgah in my afternoon walks thereafter ...

Of course the Torah also records that Moses was a very modest person.....

Think about the implications of Moses telling us THAT about himself, and then perhaps we can

all agree to excuse the good Rebbi for his old-fashioned words to California.

d'Unk

[katherine the great]

I recently came across a webpage called "Conflicts with Science":

http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm

It lists issues with things like:

Noah's Ark

The Tower of Babel

The sun getting it's light from Kolob

Dinosaurs

The age of the Earth

Were Adam and Eve the first humans

The basic analysis by this group of people is that none of these things are true, and that they are fables. I just wanted to open this up to discussion because I think it is something important to think about.

I'm going to depart with most faithful LDS on this issue, but I am 100% positive that there was NO universal flood on this earth. If there was, it was billions of years before any human being existed on this earth.

I know that many people feel that it is a matter of faith to believe in the story as written. I don't feel that way. The lesson of the story of Noah and his obedience amidst sin is just as real to me as if I did believe in a universal flood.

[Uncle Dale]

I'm going to depart with most faithful LDS on this issue, but I am 100% positive that there was NO universal flood on this earth. If there was, it was billions of years before any human being existed on this earth.

I know that many people feel that it is a matter of faith to believe in the story as written. I don't feel that way. The lesson of the story of Noah and his obedience amidst sin is just as real to me as if I did believe in a universal flood.

When I lived in Nepal, years ago, there were some Christian missionaries in the southern part

of the country, at a hospital, in a place called Tansen. Of course they were clandestine missionaries,

(because teaching the religion is forbidden there), but they were teaching Bible stories nevertheless.

At one point, one of their more astute Buddhist students took issue with "the truth" these missionaries

were teaching --- about how Noah's Flood covered even the top of Mount Everest (not far distant

from where all of us lived at the time), and how the earth was only 8,000 years old, etc.

The young fellow's answer was quite simple --- that he had walked to Nepal from Tibet, going

downhill all the way, through the greatest river valley in the world (deeper than the Grand Canyon).

That river CUT THROUGH THE HIMALAYAS -- the tallest mountains in the world.

The only way it could have done so, was if the mountains very, very, very slowly pushed upward,

allowing the pre-existing river to cut through their rock, as they rose.

There was no way possible that Noah's Flood cut the Kali Gandaki Valley through unimaginable tons

of solid rock, all in a month, or 40 days and 40 nights, or whatever.

The missionaries would not admit any of this -- they were expelled for breaking the law, by teaching

fables as truth.

Uncle Dale

[valkator]

Human beings tend to interpret the past by projecting their own, assumed, superior, present position of understanding onto it. 'Stories' become just that - stories - myths that teach some 'interior' truth with the 'outer events' being simply a literary fiction and not illustrative of what actually happened - even if the 'as it actually happened facts' are open for further research. One's perception of their environment changing or undergoing massive upheaval and natural destruction is too much to deal with -- too much to think about. Most simple build higher and higher walls in the desperate attempt to keep 'the world' away - tied to their present state and form of existence in stasis. No 'savior' will arrive to deliver one from 'the world' they close their eyes to -- at least not any savior one might be expecting.

Any acknowledgement of cataclysms in the past, told within the setting of religious narratives, forces one to abandon the 'safe and secure' bubble that usually characterizes people who cannot see anything beyond their immediate context. Why? Religious narratives force one to confront themselves as they are now - and reducing the narrative of past events to fiction allows for one to temporarily get away with not having to face anything at all. Of course, 'nature' has a way of breaking down these walls that shield one from the reality of existence. The sooner one does it one their own, the better able one will be to handle what is happening right now...or put another way; lobsters are slow boiled to death and probably don't notice until the final moments of the cycle.

[katherine the great]

Any acknowledgement of cataclysms in the past, told within the setting of religious narratives, forces one to abandon the 'safe and secure' bubble that usually characterizes people who cannot see anything beyond their immediate context. Why? Religious narratives force one to confront themselves as they are now - and reducing the narrative of past events to fiction allows for one to temporarily get away with not having to face anything at all. Of course, 'nature' has a way of breaking down these walls that shield one from the reality of existence. The sooner one does it one their own, the better able one will be to handle what is happening right now...or put another way; lobsters are slow boiled to death and probably don't notice until the final moments of the cycle.

That was an interesting post. (although I have no idea what you just said...)

[Sethbag]

So Valkator, do you believe in the literal, global flood a few years ago that wiped out all of humanity except for Noah and his family? Do you believe that Adam and Eve, as a couple who lived a few thousand years ago, were the first human beings on earth?

[Uncle Dale]

So Valkator, do you believe in the literal, global flood a few years ago that wiped out all of humanity except for Noah and his family? Do you believe that Adam and Eve, as a couple who lived a few thousand years ago, were the first human beings on earth?

And that all the raccoons on Noah's Ark walked from Mt. Ararat to North America,

leaving in the Old World, nary a coon.

Uncle "green areas = good coon hunting / white areas = give it up! you clueless biblicists" Dale

.

[valkator]

So Valkator, do you believe in the literal, global flood a few years ago that wiped out all of humanity except for Noah and his family? Do you believe that Adam and Eve, as a couple who lived a few thousand years ago, were the first human beings on earth?

A qualified 'yes'. I 'believe' that the last universal deluge or flood wiped out a large portion of humanity somewhere between 10 and 13 thousand years ago. Noah is a title - meaning 'one who knows or 'knew' from the root Noe. The 'family' that survived are the one's who, like him, also 'knew' and survived the deluge. Was there an 'ark' as in some sailing ship? Maybe -- maybe not. I think it all depends on where the survivors were and what they used to survive. Planes, Trains, and Automobiles...who knows.

I do NOT believe that water was the sole element involved in the deluge - though it was an important one.

My view on Adam and Eve is that they are synonymous with the first human beings created that 'fell'. I view the names Adam and Eve as being an illustration for the first male and females of the Adamic Race - and not, necessarily 'just' two human beings exclusively.

I do not believe that the Adamic race were the first humans on this planet when they 'fell' into this realm...though they WERE the first humans who 'fell' from the higher realms. They 'fell' into an environment that already had 'human beings' living on the planet -- though this 'pre Adamic' race was not 'souled' in the same sense that Adamics are. They lack the original 'higher centers' that Adam/Eve were created with prior to the Fall and, thus, 'salvation' and the 'atonement' are not for them - though they may 'vicariously' participate in it by linking themselves to Adamics on the 'salvific path', so to speak. They will experience a second death and cannot obtain a 'rebirth' until Adamics have moved on - up or down, so to speak. They are the 'sons of perdition', though Adamics can be that as well if they continue 'falling' farther down the 'totem pole'. At any rate, this is really off the subject.

At any rate, the 'dates', in my opinion, are secondary to the narratives.

[Doctor Steuss]

And that all the raccoons on Noah's Ark walked from Mt. Ararat to North America,

leaving in the Old World, nary a coon.

[...]

Uncle "green areas = good coon hunting / white areas = give it up! you clueless biblicists" Dale

.

Silly Uncle.

Tadah!

Now, as to how anything survived the continents moving apart rapidly after all animals were safely distributed is another matter... or is it (*cue sinister organ music*)

Imagine how much angels saved on airfare before the split.

[Uncle Dale]

Silly Uncle.

Tadah!

I guess you've heard about the Bermuda triangle

There's something going on

Nobody seems to know just what it is

And the airforce won't let on

It might be hole down in the ocean

Yeah or a fog that won't let go

It might be some crazy people talking

Or somebody that we ought to know

Down in Bermuda, the pale blue sea

Way down in the triangle, it's easy to believe

(Fleetwood Mac)

d'Unk

[SolarPowered]

Silly Uncle.

Tadah!

Now, as to how anything survived the continents moving apart rapidly after all animals were safely distributed is another matter... or is it (*cue sinister organ music*)

I don't think that map is 100% correct. There are slate formations in the New England area of North Amercia that are part of the same formations as the slate formations in Wales. This map does not appear to preserve that alignment. :scratchinghead:

[valkator]

I guess you've heard about the Bermuda triangle

There's something going on

Nobody seems to know just what it is

And the airforce won't let on

It might be hole down in the ocean

Yeah or a fog that won't let go

It might be some crazy people talking

Or somebody that we ought to know

Down in Bermuda, the pale blue sea

Way down in the triangle, it's easy to believe

(Fleetwood Mac)

d'Unk

....some of these little artifact power cells, er priceless trinkets, buried in the deris area, maybe...

[SolarPowered]

I recently came across a webpage called "Conflicts with Science":

http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm

It lists issues with things like:

Noah's Ark

The Tower of Babel

The sun getting it's light from Kolob

Dinosaurs

The age of the Earth

Were Adam and Eve the first humans

The basic analysis by this group of people is that none of these things are true, and that they are fables. I just wanted to open this up to discussion because I think it is something important to think about.

In the past, I have had major concerns about some (not all) of the items on this list.

I have since come to realized two things:

1) Science is still working on its understanding of the past. Some things I think are now pretty well established, like that a worldwide flood a few thousand years ago just didn't happen. (Although unlike Kate the Grate, I think I'll only give that a 97% probability, not 100%. )

Other areas of science are "evolving." For example, the Pangea theory developed during my lifetime. It is in some ways a very interesting match for the "lands being divided" in the time of Peleg. It's just a few tens of millions of years too early.

2) The scriptures are nowhere near as perfect as many people like to think they are. Unk's "Song of Miriam" analysis is an excellent case in point. Apparently, the Song of Miriam is much older than the body of the Exodus narrative; thus, Exodus appears to have been written long after the fact. In addition, the Song of Miriam bears evidence of interpolation to support an Exodus myth that is different from the original song.

In other words, while I believe that the scriptural record is quite good (for example, see the recent thread about a minor Babylonian functionary who was mentioned in the Bible that has now been found in the archeological record), I don't expect it to be perfect.

The understanding of the history of the scriptural record is another science that is evolving. We are continuing to learn new things about what has happened to the scritpures we have. See, for example, the works of Margaret Barker, who has made some major insights into the redactions the Old Testament text has gone through.

In short, I am able to say, "Yes, the scriptural accounts of Noah and the Flood don't agree with what science is telling me about the Earth. Clearly, at least one of them is in error somewhere. I look forward to the day when I learn what actually happened."

Similarly, I can say, "Science tells us that there were people on this Earth long before the time of Adam and Eve. Yet, it is abundantly clear from many scriptural sources that Adam and Eve are the parents of the human family. Something is wrong somewhere. I look forward to the day when I understand what that is."

[Maidservant]

Sigh . . . at the risk of being accused again of having a crush . . . lol ( . . . it's all good, Mahan) . . .

Uncle Dale, love the map. That's hilarious! I suck at computer graphics and uploading [insert anything] into computers and computer sites -- but that map could just be the beginning! I think it needs some more things! Could you read my mind?

Clue: Certainly through satellite and GPS tracking we know the location of the three Nephites cabin?

[Uncle Dale]

Sigh . . . at the risk of being accused again of having a crush...

Oh my!!

ET -- Phone home!

UD

[Ron Beron]

There is nothing in the Biblical text nor in auxiliary texts that support the idea of a universal flood. Earth, at least in the Biblical sense, doesn't reflect the same thing as it does now. The Hebrew concept of the Earth was only that which was seen not including the remainder of the world which was unseen.

Scientifically, the idea of a universal flood which would submerge the highest mountains is totally absurd. Such a weight on the earth would be completely impossible. Where did that water go? Also, if all human life except Noah would be wiped off the earth then we have a problem in the variation of human life today. It requires at least 20,000 years for genetic nuances to take effect. Therefore, the idea of races would not have had opportunity to occur since the flood was only about 6-8000 years ago.

[Maidservant]

for Pangea! (Thanks for the fun!)

[Uncle Dale]

... Where did that water go?...

Back into the "firmament" and the "fountains fo the deep," of course!

Core-drillings into ancient fresh-water lakes in the Batic region expose annual sediment layers

going back 18,000 years.

Each year, for 18,000 years, a new 1/64th inch of mud on the bottoms of the lakes.

AND -- EXACTLY 6,331 YEARS AGO!!!!! ---------> nothing special.

Uncle "Oh well, Creation Science may have a few kinks in the fabric yet. Anybody got a hot iron? Dale

.

[Maidservant]

I have hesitated expressing myself on this thread, although I have a deep interest in it. There are few things that capture my faith, my imagination and my intellect than the story of Noah and the story of the flood. I know that I have not made a systematic study of the matter, and so anything I say is simply this and that collected in my mind.

I think I will venture to say a couple of things and y'all can have fun with it.

One of my main pet peeves is the insistance that certain time periods in history were isolationist (and primitive: different ideas but often, mistakenly, mooshed together), meaning to me that people have gotten the idea (with very little examination of the premise) that communities were enclosed in upon themselves and not aware of the world as, for one thing, a sphere and secondly, as containing a variety of civilizations; and that the world's communities had an active network of commerce, religion and culture which all in all meant that the world/ civilization WAS one community. When I hear persons say that Noah's world did flood (or some variation of that), I have less problem with the idea (or not) of a localized water event and more problem with the idea that we seem to insist that Noah's world was local.

Another pet peeve I have -- and you'll laugh but I actually think it makes a difference in the kind of ideas one might admit into their mind -- is Noah thought of as an elderly, white-haired, shaggy haired, long-bearded in a long robe made of rough, beige fabric. Give me a break! First of all, the story is either Mesopotamian/ Sumerian or, in LDS minds often enough, the civilization or center of it, existed on what we now call the American continent. In any case, if Sumerian, Noah likely had ringlets, no shirt, a kilt, and lots of bling! (I know, I'm probably off by a hundred years with this style, but by all means correct me). Noah would have been more likely to have a six-pack than a long white beard. (He wasn't Hebrew!)

I find it very interesting in Genesis 7:10&11: 10 says: "after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth" verse 11 "the fountains of the great deep broken up". Further verses, while not clinching in my mind that every single item on the entire planet was covered with water (although I still tend to think that is true also), nevertheless the narrative is talking about a situation that included earthquake and a lot of cataclysm that satisfy me that it was far-ranging, if not initially then something that huge would have had climatological and other types of repercussions in varying degrees around the whole sphere.

I know this is not a search independent of the scripture. However, quite often we don't even know what the scripture actually says (talking about me) and I like to delve into scripture words and see what the actual picture that is being created is.