Literalists And The Flood, Etc.

[California]

I recently came across a webpage called "Conflicts with Science":

http://www.mormonthink.com/scienceweb.htm

It lists issues with things like:

Noah's Ark

The Tower of Babel

The sun getting it's light from Kolob

Dinosaurs

The age of the Earth

Were Adam and Eve the first humans

The basic analysis by this group of people is that none of these things are true, and that they are fables. I just wanted to open this up to discussion because I think it is something important to think about.

My personal opinion is that they did happen, and maybe some like the parting of the Red Sea didn't. I can't wrap my head around thousands of years of Jews celebrating the Passover for no reason, but you never know. My testimony does not depend on that. I don't know if the Red Sea was parted, but I do know that if God wanted to part the Red Sea, or the Reed Sea, He could have. THAT, I have no doubt about.

I saw a documentary on National Geographic on which many things like the parting of the Red Sea, which apparently in Hebrew translates better as the reed sea, which means that most likely it isn't the Red Sea but some place in lower Egypt, the 10 plagues, etc. were scientifically explained. However, they could not explain the timing, and good aim etc of certain volcanoes. The show was called "Exodus Revealed".

It was interesting because there are scientific possibilities as to how the plagues could have happened.

I wanted to hear personal insights about these things as I do want to become well-informed.

It's late, but if people are curious about it, I could probably dig up some memories of what I saw. Maybe I'll post some tomorrow.

[MasterMahan]

I have no doubt these things happened, and a closer look at science, will show they are all possible.

[bjw]

The flood issue has been discussed by apologists ad nauseum. http://www.globalflood.org/

National Geographic always shows a humanistic bias when dealing with religious issues and should not be trusted as the final authority when dealing with biblical subjects. Also, some believe the dinosaurs are the creatures mentioned in the book of Job, leviathan and behemoth. I believe one of them fits the description of a plesiosaur.

For me personally, my faith in God is such that if God said that Jonah swallowed the whale instead of the other way around I would believe it, because I believe that with God all things are possible. By that I mean all things, he could give the sun radiation from another source, he could create man instantly, he could cause a disastrous flood that ages the earth millions of years, he could scatter people all over the earth, and he could do it in ways science hasn't found yet. Apologists have explained these things but it won't matter to people that don't want to believe. The people that dispute these things are starting with the presupposition that they didn't happen, and they build their evidence based on this.

I have no doubt these things happened, and a closer look at science, will show they are all possible.

Very well put!

[Ron Beron]

For me personally, my faith in God is such that if God said that Jonah swallowed the whale instead of the other way around I would believe it,

Since the bible never says it was a whale, but great fish and whales aren't fish would you accept a grouper? I could eat a grouper.

[Uncle Dale]

My personal opinion is that they did happen, and maybe some like the parting of the Red Sea didn't.

I can't wrap my head around thousands of years of Jews celebrating the Passover for no reason,

but you never know. My testimony does not depend on that. I don't know if the Red Sea was

parted...

Let's look at the oldest telling of that particular piece of sacred history -- it is comprised in

archaic Hebrew litergical poetry, and is generally called the "Song of Moses" -- or, more

properly, the "Song of Miriam." I have here excerpted that old poem from out of the Exodus

narrative (which is a later literary creation) and slightly re-arranged a couple of lines, to match

what I believe was a very ancient worship song among the Isrealites:

THE SONG OF MIRIAM

(from Exodus 15)

15:01b

I will sing to YHWH, for He is exalted gloriously;

both horse and chariot rider He has cast into the sea!

15:02

[doxology: late textual insertion]

Yah is my fierce might and my song of praise,

He has become my salvation;

such is my God, and I will honor Him,

the God of my fathers, and I will raise him up.

--==(O)==--

15:03

YHWH is a warrior;

YHWH is His name.

15:04

Pharaoh's chariots and his whole army He hurled into the sea;

his elite team officers sank in the Yam Sup.

15:05

The depths covered them;

they sank into the depths like a stone.

--==(O)==--

15:06

Your right hand, O YHWH, is magnificent in power,

Your right hand, O YHWH, shatters the enemy.

15:07

In the greatness of Your majestic triumph You smashed Your adversaries;

You sent forth Your burning anger, it consumed them like straw.

15:08

By the angry blast of Your nostrils the waters piled up,

the currents stood up in a heap;

the ocean depths churned in the heart of the sea.

--==(O)==--

15:09

The enemy said, "I will pursue, I will overtake.

I will divide the plunder, my blood lust shall be satisfied,

I will bare my sword, my hand will dispossess them."

15:10

You blew with your wind, the sea covered them;

they sank like lead in the dreadful waters.

--==(O)==--

15:11

Who is like You, among the divine ones, O YHWH?

Who is like You, majestic among the holy ones,

awesome in praiseworthy deeds, working wonders?

15:12

You stretched out Your right hand,

earth's depths swallowed them.

--==(O)==--

15:13

You guided in Your steadfast love the people whom You redeemed.

and led them by Your might to Your holy encampment.

15:14

The peoples heard, they trembled in worry,

anguish seized Philistia's settlers.

15:15

Now Edom's chieftains are terrified;

Moab's nobles, trembling has seized them;

all of Canaan's inhabitants have melted in weakness.

15:16a

Terror and dread You brought upon them;

by Your arm's greatness, they are struck dumb as stone,

--==(O)==--

15:16b

till Your people pass by, O YHWH,

till the people You have fashioned pass by.

15:17

Then You will bring them, and You will plant them on the mountain of Your heritage,

the place, O YHWH, which You prepared for Your enthroned presence,

the holy sanctuary, O Lord, made firm by Your hands.

15:18

YHWH reigns for ever -- eternally.

--==(O)==--

15:19

[narrative: late insertion]

For when Pharaoh's horses with chariots and riders went into the sea, YHWH

turned back the sea's waters upon them; but the Israelites walked on dry land

through the midst of the sea.

15:20-21

[originally at beginning of the song]

15:20

Then Miriam, the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a timbrel in her hand;

and all the women went out after her with timbrels and dancing.

15:21a And Miriam sang to them:

15:21b

"Sing to YHWH, for he is exalted gloriously;

both horse and chariot rider He has cast into the sea!"

--==(O)==--

Translation from the MT by Dale R. Broadhurst, 1979 (updated 1997)

http://sidneyrigdon.com/DRB/BEGIN/mirsong.htm

http://sidneyrigdon.com/DRB/BEGIN/miriam2.htm

If we do not include the narrative of Exodus 15:19, then WHAT is the story being told?

The problem comes when that narrative is tacked on to the old poem:

"For when Pharaoh's horses with chariots and riders went into the sea, YHWH

turned back the sea's waters upon them; but the Israelites walked on dry land

through the midst of the sea."

I believe that the poem preserves memory of an actual, historical event, in which

Egyptian troops were unexpectly killed by "the waters" and harrassed Israelites

were thus "miraculously" spared.

No "parting of the Red Sea" in the original poem -- no "walking on dry land" of the sea bed.

Uncle Dale

[MasterMahan]

No "parting of the Red Sea" in the original poem -- no "walking on dry land" of the sea bed.

Huh!?

Didn't your poem say just that...

15:19

[narrative: late insertion]

For when Pharaoh's horses with chariots and riders went into the sea, YHWH

turned back the sea's waters upon them; but the Israelites walked on dry land

through the midst of the sea.

...besides your attempts to brush over this verse, am I missing something here??

[Uncle Dale]

Huh!?

Didn't your poem say just that...

...am I missing something here??

Yup -- the 15:19 text is perhaps a thousand years later than the original poem.

Consider it a manipulation of the plain and precious story by the Great and Abominable Church,

if that scenerio makes the effect of the late narrative insertion more understandable.

I include it in the blue-colored translation, only for reference sake, and NOT as an integral

part of the poetic text.

Clear as mud?

UD

[Beowulf]

An interesting site.

One MAJOR problem, however. It first states that "this is what Mormons believe", quoting various people and church publications. Nowhere, however, does it quote various people and church publications that SAY SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

And believe me, there ARE Mormons (yours truly is one of them) who do believe something different than what that website purports.

To count up:

1. I believe in an Earth 4.5 billion years old.

2. I believe the dinosaurs lived, and died out, many millions of years ago.

3. I do not believe in a universal flood.

4. I fully understand how stars shine.

5. Languages take a long time to evolve.

Does this make me apostate? It surely does not... (For one thing, none of the above has anything to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is ALL that is needed for salvation... The rest is speculation, whether ancient or modern.)

However, I shall try to explain myself...

I accept that Noah was a real person, and that SOMETHING happened at the time of the Great Flood. However, if you pay close attention to the Flood story, you will note that it is not a description of Real Water. The water that floods the world is Chaos (it springs out from ABOVE and BELOW). It is the same Chaos that the Lord fought down in the Creation sequence. (see Genesis 1:3) This is a re-enactment of the Creation, in reverse. The actual boat and carrying of animals, etc., was therefore local. But the IMPLICATIONS were universal, as universal as the Creation Story itself.

Light of Kolob: Our detractors spend a lot of time explaining how stars shine, and how Kolob cannot be the source, etc., etc. All they succeed in doing is showing that they understand nothing about Spiritual Light, or the Light of Christ. While I expect that Kolob is a real star, it does not have to be anywhere that we can spot from Earth, and its power and light is derived from God, not from stellar fusion. (But the Egyptians knew of a Kolob, which has been identified as Sirius. How could Joseph have known this?... Take that, Grant Palmer... heh)

The same argument goes for the Tower of Babel. I believe it was a real event, but localized. Confounding the languages of one land (called "all the Earth" by anyone who would have lived there) would certainly be traumatic, even if it didn't reach everyone on the planet. It does not hamper the Jaredite story at all...

I could go on. But this is good enough for one evening...

Beowulf

(whom I also believe was a real person, somewhere in Denmark... heh)

[MasterMahan]

Clear as mud?

Absoulety not!!

I'll play the role of the fool, so you can spell it out in simple words...ok?

You provided...this...poem, to prove what? It appears, to me (with the whole text), that you are trying to disprove that Moses parted the Red Sea, and that the Jews walked on dry land...yes?

Now, you provided your poem, altogether. You say 15:19 was a thousand years later then the rest, but you included it, originally, as if it was all one...

...hello...?

[MasterMahan]

3. I do not believe in a universal flood.

Does this make me apostate?

Sorry, Beowulf, but I would say, yes.

I don't know you, so don't get upset. However, we are to accept scripture as the word of God, and that's exactly what it states...there was a universal flood...no metaphor here.

[Uncle Dale]

Absoulety not!!

I'll play the role of the fool, so you can spell it out in simple words...ok?

You provided...this...poem, to prove what? It appears, to me (with the whole text), that you are trying to disprove that Moses parted the Red Sea, and that the Jews walked on dry land...yes?

Now, you provided your poem, altogether...without any distinction. So why, now, are you separating parts of it?? You say 15:19 was a thousand years later then the rest, but you included it, originally, as if it was all one...

...hello...?

I merely offer up the idea for discussion. If others wiser and more spiritually discerning

than myself disagree, then perhaps their command of Hebrew, history and theology is better

than mine. After all, for me this stuff is just a hobby and not an occupation.

BYU graduate Hebrew experts -- we need your imput here.

UD

[MasterMahan]

I merely offer up the idea for discussion. If others wiser and more spiritually discerning

than myself disagree, then perhaps their command of Hebrew, history and theology is better

than mine. After all, for me this stuff is just a hobby and not an occupation.

BYU graduate Hebrew experts -- we need your imput here.

UD

Huh!!??

You just completely avoided my questions to you....

[Uncle Dale]

Huh!!??

You just completely avoided my questions to you....

You provided...this...poem, to prove what? It appears, to me (with the whole text), that you are trying to disprove that Moses parted the Red Sea, and that the Jews walked on dry land...yes?

Now, you provided your poem, altogether. You say 15:19 was a thousand years later then the rest, but you included it, originally, as if it was all one..

I merely translated a page or so from the Hebrew scroll of Exodus into English,

and indicated where some much later text is positioned.

I did that to provide options for further discussion.

If any waters were parted, Moses did not do it -- God did.

No Jews walked anywhere -- these were Israelites -- there were no Jews until centuries later.

I provided the entire biblical text and indicated where the narrative insertion was. I can

remove that -- or color it differently -- or whatever you feel would help matters here.

I'll let others decide whether the original poem's strory was complete, without

the later textual addition ---- because I have no power to change people's minds.

They will come to their own conclusions, regardless of what I may think.

UD

[Maidservant]

I loved the poem/ passage of Exodus scripture (Song of Miriam). Thanks, Uncle Dale. I can actually see the difference in the voice between the older portion and the insertions.

[Uncle Dale]

I loved the poem/ passage of Exodus scripture (Song of Miriam).

Thanks, Uncle Dale. I can actually see the difference in the voice between

the older portion and the insertions.

I think that the Song of Miriam was preserved by annual oral repetition in one of the

shrines of southern Judah -- perhaps at Kadosh or Beersheba.

Another very ancient (and beautiful sounding in Hebrew) old poetic text is the

Song of Deborah in Judges.

Too bad Huldah didn't have a song (or maybe she did and it has been lost).

I fancy that those old Israelite prophetesses must have been good singers.

Uncle "of course 'singing' was rather different in those days -- no melody, no rhyme" Dale

[MasterMahan]

I merely translated a page or so from the Hebrew scroll of Exodus into English,

and indicated where some much later text is positioned.

Ok...can you cite me the original, so I can do the same...

If any waters were parted, Moses did not do it -- God did.

...and Peter didn't raise the dead...*** for tat.

No Jews walked anywhere -- these were Israelites -- there were no Jews until centuries later.

Again...my same response...Jews, Israelites...all the same. Try not to nitpick too much.

I provided the entire biblical text and indicated where the narrative insertion was. I can

remove that -- or color it differently -- or whatever you feel would help matters here.

Now it's BIBLICAL??

I'll let others decide whether the original poem's strory was complete, without

the later textual addition ---- because I have no power to change people's minds.

They will come to their own conclusions, regardless of what I may think.

Maybe you should have done that in the first place...

I loved the poem/ passage of Exodus scripture (Song of Miriam). Thanks, Uncle Dale. I can actually see the difference in the voice between the older portion and the insertions.

Someone loves Uncle Dale....

[Freedom]

Noah's Ark

The Tower of Babel

The sun getting it's light from Kolob

Dinosaurs

The age of the Earth

Were Adam and Eve the first humans

the issue with these points are in interpretation of the text. The story of the Tower of Babel, for example is not to detailed. Nibley argues that what transpired was a natural disaster that caused the people to scatter, leading to a natural corruption of language. It does not say that their languages suddenly changed.

I don't know of any doctrine that indicates how old the earth is. Nor do I know of any doctrine concerning dinosaurs. This list is silly, realy.

[Neighbor]

the issue with these points are in interpretation of the text. The story of the Tower of Babel, for example is not to detailed. Nibley argues that what transpired was a natural disaster that caused the people to scatter, leading to a natural corruption of language. It does not say that their languages suddenly changed.

I don't know of any doctrine that indicates how old the earth is. Nor do I know of any doctrine concerning dinosaurs. This list is silly, realy.

The wife has questioned me several times about what I think about the dinosours and this seems peculiar to me. I always find it odd that LDS seem to turn to their scholarship to things that seem elemental to me. If Jesus is the prophetic word made sure and Moses is the first great prophet of Israel who was a type of Christ in his office and role in leading Gods people to freedom and life and future, it puzzels me how/why LDS seem to question certain things. Sort of reminds me of those in the "Jesus Seminar". Dinosours are mentioned in Job. (behemoth?SP?)

On to the questions:

Noah's Ark

The Tower of Babel

The sun getting it's light from Kolob

Dinosaurs

The age of the Earth

Were Adam and Eve the first humans

The topic mentions the flood, but it isn't listed here. Have any of you read "1491, New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus"? It touches fairly well on the development of languages, genetics and other issues, but brings to my mind that the question is not so much what the Bible says, but if the telling of certain events are more figurative that literal. I've been a literalist for years, more later than previous, but the dating of the remains in the Americas seems to conflict with the dating offered by a scholar who actually said Adam was created some specific day about 4000 BC. The Bible doesn't date Adam. Then there is the old mystery of who did their children marry... In American tale God populated the world with several couples.., so that when the indians saw the bearded white people many looked at them as sort of distant cousins - not all thought they were 'Gods'.

Yet what if mankind has been here for many thousands of years before what our best 'scholars' have told us before? Should we be open to learning if what we've heard before wasn't really correct? Do questions being investigated equal to loosing faith? I hope not. Realizing the Sun didn't revolve around the earth didn't cause the Jewish or Christian faith to vanish.

What would Moses have been taught about the flood or Adam and Eve if his reference point were his Egyptian schooling? or if the Babylonian schooling from Abraham had been passed down by his mother? Or is the matter quite possibly that God did tell Moses the account and what to write - as the mysterious 'Bible Code' seems to indicate?

[MasterMahan]

The wife has questioned me several times about what I think about the dinosours and this seems peculiar to me. I always find it odd that LDS seem to turn to their scholarship to things that seem elemental to me.

Dinosours seem elemental to me... what's your point?

If Jesus is the prophetic word made sure and Moses is the first great prophet of Israel who was a type of Christ in his office and role in leading Gods people to freedom and life and future, it puzzels me how/why LDS seem to question certain things.

Not questioning anything here...

I've been a literalist for years, more later than previous, but the dating of the remains in the Americas seems to conflict with the dating offered by a scholar who actually said Adam was created some specific day about 4000 BC.

Ever heard what salt water does to carbon dating?

The Bible doesn't date Adam.

Uh...yes, it does.

Then there is the old mystery of who did their children marry... In American tale God populated the world with several couples.., so that when the indians saw the bearded white people many looked at them as sort of distant cousins - not all thought they were 'Gods'.

Huh!?

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here, but the Bible is clear that Adam and Eve had many sons and daughters...that's who married whom. I'm not quite sure how you fast-forwarded to the natives, though...

Yet what if mankind has been here for many thousands of years before what our best 'scholars' have told us before? Should we be open to learning if what we've heard before wasn't really correct? Do questions being investigated equal to loosing faith? I hope not. Realizing the Sun didn't revolve around the earth didn't cause the Jewish or Christian faith to vanish.

When did the fact that Adam came a specific amount of time ago have anything to do with how long the earth has been in existence?

What would Moses have been taught about the flood or Adam and Eve if his reference point were his Egyptian schooling? or if the Babylonian schooling from Abraham had been passed down by his mother? Or is the matter quite possibly that God did tell Moses the account and what to write - as the mysterious 'Bible Code' seems to indicate?

What? The 'Bible Code'? Are you LDS? Where are you going with this mumbo jumbo??

[California]

Sorry, Beowulf, but I would say, yes.

I don't know you, so don't get upset. However, we are to accept scripture as the word of God, and that's exactly what it states...there was a universal flood...no metaphor here.

I don't think there was one either, though I do admire your faith. I have the same faith, I just don't agree with that. There is evidence of a major flood in that area, however, during the time period when Noah would have lived. I have had to consider that perhaps Noah thought the entire world was flooded, and it was, HIS entire world.

Perhaps not the whole earth, only the whole earth as he knew it, since the world was so much smaller then.

I really appreciate everyone's comments, I have learned sooo much, and it is nice to have so many perspectives and ways of explaining this website.

Thanks. Let the discussion continue!

[Uncle Dale]

Ok...can you cite me the original, so I can do the same...

Will try -- I can remove the English, if you wish -- it is not my translation I'm pasteing in here:

Exodus 15 (MT)

א אָז יָשִׁיר-מֹשֶׁה וּבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-הַשִּׁירָה הַזֹּאת, לַיהוָה, וַיֹּאמְרוּ, {ר} לֵאמֹר: {ס} אָשִׁירָה לַיהוָה כִּי-גָאֹה גָּאָה,

{ס} סוּס {ר} וְרֹכְבוֹ רָמָה בַיָּם. {ס} 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spoke, saying: I will sing unto the LORD, for He is highly exalted; the horse and his rider hath He thrown into the sea.

ב עָזִּי וְזִמְרָת יָהּ, וַיְהִי-לִי {ר} לִישׁוּעָה; {ס} זֶה אֵלִי וְאַנְוֵהוּ, {ס} אֱלֹהֵי {ר} אָבִי וַאֲרֹמְמֶנְהוּ. {ס} 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and He is become my salvation; this is my God, and I will glorify Him; my father's God, and I will exalt Him.

ג יְהוָה, אִישׁ מִלְחָמָה; יְהוָה, {ר} שְׁמוֹ. {ס} 3 The LORD is a man of war, The LORD is His name.

ד מַרְכְּבֹת פַּרְעֹה וְחֵילוֹ, יָרָה בַיָּם; {ס} וּמִבְחַר {ר} שָׁלִשָׁיו, טֻבְּעוּ בְיַם-סוּף. {ס} 4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath He cast into the sea, and his chosen captains are sunk in the Red Sea.

ה תְּהֹמֹת, יְכַסְיֻמוּ; יָרְדוּ בִמְצוֹלֹת, כְּמוֹ {ר} אָבֶן. {ס} 5 The deeps cover them--they went down into the depths like a stone.

ו יְמִינְךָ יְהוָה, נֶאְדָּרִי בַּכֹּחַ; {ס} יְמִינְךָ {ר} יְהוָה, תִּרְעַץ אוֹיֵב. {ס} 6 Thy right hand, O LORD, glorious in power, Thy right hand, O LORD, dasheth in pieces the enemy.

ז וּבְרֹב גְּאוֹנְךָ, תַּהֲרֹס {ר} קָמֶיךָ; {ס} תְּשַׁלַּח, חֲרֹנְךָ--יֹאכְלֵמוֹ, כַּקַּשׁ. {ס} 7 And in the greatness of Thine excellency Thou overthrowest them that rise up against Thee; Thou sendest forth Thy wrath, it consumeth them as stubble.

ח וּבְרוּחַ {ר} אַפֶּיךָ נֶעֶרְמוּ מַיִם, {ס} נִצְּבוּ כְמוֹ-נֵד {ר} נֹזְלִים; {ס} קָפְאוּ תְהֹמֹת, בְּלֶב-יָם. {ס} 8 And with the blast of Thy nostrils the waters were piled up--the floods stood upright as a heap; the deeps were congealed in the heart of the sea.

ט אָמַר {ר} אוֹיֵב אֶרְדֹּף אַשִּׂיג, {ס} אֲחַלֵּק שָׁלָל; תִּמְלָאֵמוֹ {ר} נַפְשִׁי-- {ס} אָרִיק חַרְבִּי, תּוֹרִישֵׁמוֹ יָדִי. {ס} 9 The enemy said: 'I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.'

י נָשַׁפְתָּ {ר} בְרוּחֲךָ, כִּסָּמוֹ יָם; {ס} צָלְלוּ, כַּעוֹפֶרֶת, בְּמַיִם, {ר} אַדִּירִים. {ס} 10 Thou didst blow with Thy wind, the sea covered them; they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

יא מִי-כָמֹכָה בָּאֵלִם יְהוָה, {ס} מִי {ר} כָּמֹכָה נֶאְדָּר בַּקֹּדֶשׁ; {ס} נוֹרָא תְהִלֹּת, עֹשֵׂה {ר} פֶלֶא. {ס} 11 Who is like unto Thee, O LORD, among the mighty? who is like unto Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

יב נָטִיתָ, יְמִינְךָ--תִּבְלָעֵמוֹ, אָרֶץ. {ס} 12 Thou stretchedst out Thy right hand--the earth swallowed them.

יג נָחִיתָ {ר} בְחַסְדְּךָ, עַם-זוּ גָּאָלְתָּ; {ס} נֵהַלְתָּ בְעָזְּךָ, אֶל-נְוֵה {ר} קָדְשֶׁךָ. {ס} 13 Thou in Thy love hast led the people that Thou hast redeemed; Thou hast guided them in Thy strength to Thy holy habitation.

יד שָׁמְעוּ עַמִּים, יִרְגָּזוּן; {ס} חִיל {ר} אָחַז, יֹשְׁבֵי פְּלָשֶׁת. {ס} 14 The peoples have heard, they tremble; pangs have taken hold on the inhabitants of Philistia.

טו אָז נִבְהֲלוּ, אַלּוּפֵי {ר} אֱדוֹם-- {ס} אֵילֵי מוֹאָב, יֹאחֲזֵמוֹ רָעַד; {ס} נָמֹגוּ, {ר} כֹּל יֹשְׁבֵי כְנָעַן. {ס} 15 Then were the chiefs of Edom affrighted; the mighty men of Moab, trembling taketh hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan are melted away.

טז תִּפֹּל עֲלֵיהֶם אֵימָתָה {ר} וָפַחַד, {ס} בִּגְדֹל זְרוֹעֲךָ יִדְּמוּ כָּאָבֶן: {ס} עַד {ר} יַעֲבֹר עַמְּךָ יְהוָה, {ס} עַד-יַעֲבֹר עַם-זוּ {ר} קָנִיתָ. {ס} 16 Terror and dread falleth upon them; by the greatness of Thine arm they are as still as a stone; till Thy people pass over, O LORD, till the people pass over that Thou hast gotten.

יז תְּבִאֵמוֹ, וְתִטָּעֵמוֹ בְּהַר נַחֲלָתְךָ-- {ס} מָכוֹן {ר} לְשִׁבְתְּךָ פָּעַלְתָּ, יְהוָה; {ס} מִקְּדָשׁ, אֲדֹנָי כּוֹנְנוּ {ר} יָדֶיךָ. {ס} 17 Thou bringest them in, and plantest them in the mountain of Thine inheritance, the place, O LORD, which Thou hast made for Thee to dwell in, the sanctuary, O Lord, which Thy hands have established.

יח יְהוָה יִמְלֹךְ, לְעֹלָם וָעֶד. {ס} 18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.

יט כִּי {ר} בָא סוּס פַּרְעֹה בְּרִכְבּוֹ וּבְפָרָשָׁיו, בַּיָּם, {ס} וַיָּשֶׁב יְהוָה עֲלֵהֶם, {ר} אֶת-מֵי הַיָּם; {ס} וּבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הָלְכוּ בַיַּבָּשָׁה, בְּתוֹךְ הַיָּם. {ר} {ש} 19 For the horses of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the LORD brought back the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel walked on dry land in the midst of the sea. {P}

כ וַתִּקַּח מִרְיָם הַנְּבִיאָה אֲחוֹת אַהֲרֹן, אֶת-הַתֹּף--בְּיָדָהּ; וַתֵּצֶאןָ כָל-הַנָּשִׁים אַחֲרֶיהָ, בְּתֻפִּים וּבִמְחֹלֹת. 20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

כא וַתַּעַן לָהֶם, מִרְיָם: שִׁירוּ לַיהוָה כִּי-גָאֹה גָּאָה, סוּס וְרֹכְבוֹ רָמָה בַיָּם. {ס} 21 And Miriam sang unto them: Sing ye to the LORD, for He is highly exalted: the horse and his rider hath He thrown into the sea. {S}

Uncle Dale

[California]

Hugh Nibley has written about how one of the leading causes of the apostasy was a loss of literal belief in the Bible the doctrines of Christ. They stopped believing a physical temple was necessary after the Jerusalem temple was destroyed, and changed it into a "spiritual temple" of the body of the church. They changed the doctrines of being created in the image of God (and thus God having a body) into God, as a spirit and only a spirit, creating our spirits ex nihilo like He created everything else. Since then, there's been a general sense of condescension against anyone who interprets the Bible literally, because of COURSE there wasn't an earth-covering flood, or hordes of frogs, locusts, lice, flies, etc, or someone actually walking on top of water. I saw the ads for Exodus Revealed, and decided not to watch it because it looked too much like an expose - like they found out "what really happened" during the Exodus, and that it wasn't a miracle at all, just an odd combination of circumstances. Yes, we know God operates according to law, and we can try and guess how things may have happened. I'm sure He gave us brains to use them and puzzle some things out for ourself (Alma 31:21).

this is what someone I know posted on another board...

[Dale]

Literalism is important as far as the existence of certain Biblical person's and events is concerned. Without Adam and Eve the Tower of Babel the Book of Mormon would be just inspiring fiction. Without a literal Adam, and Eve the fall of man story would be a lie. If no fall happened would we need Jesus dying on the cross? A book or book's being inspired by God would be indoctrinated nonsense not something worthy of belief in.

I have to be open to certain events happened, or give up on scripture as anything more than apocrypha. Scripture could fix fiction with history, but still survive if Adam and Eve existed, and the fall happened. Jesus has to have really rose from the dead or Christianity is as true as the Egyptian religion.

[California]

Naum Volzinger, senior researcher at the St. Petersburg Institute of Oceanology, and colleague Alexei Androsov of Hamburg, determined that a reef runs from Egypt to the north side of the Red Sea. They believe the reef used to be much closer to the surface during Biblical times at approximately 1500 B.C.

Depending on the weather and tidal movements, the reef could have been exposed for hours at a time, according to the new theory.

"If the wind blew all night at a speed of 30 meters (about 98 1/2 feet) per second, then the reef would be dry," Volzinger told The Moscow Times. "It would take the Jews â?? there were 600,000 of them â?? four hours to cross the seven-kilometer (4.4 mile) reef that runs from one coast to another. Then, in half an hour, the waters would come back."

I found this on: http://sufizmveinsan.com/cuma/reddsea.htm

I think that God uses natural laws. the key is the timing of it all. I can't see this happening all the time, and the wind stopping exactly when the Jews were over and when Pharoah was getting through, that is where the miracle lies, I think.

I have contacted a Rabbi on this, he should respond within a couple of days.

[Sethbag]

Literalism is important as far as the existence of certain Biblical person's and events is concerned. Without Adam and Eve the Tower of Babel the Book of Mormon would be just inspiring fiction. Without a literal Adam, and Eve the fall of man story would be a lie. If no fall happened would we need Jesus dying on the cross? A book or book's being inspired by God would be indoctrinated nonsense not something worthy of belief in.

Uhuh. Keep going, you're on to something.

I have to be open to certain events happened, or give up on scripture as anything more than apocrypha. Scripture could fix fiction with history, but still survive if Adam and Eve existed, and the fall happened. Jesus has to have really rose from the dead or Christianity is as true as the Egyptian religion.

Ok, so what's more important to you, knowing that what you believe is actually true, or deciding to accept certain things that fly in the face of mountains of evidence in order that certain beliefs, which you cherish, can remain plausible in your mind? That's really the $64 question in all of this.

Here's about how it goes with some people: "I have to believe in a literal Adam and Eve being the first humans, because if I don't, then the rest of my beliefs don't make sense, and I want them to keep making sense, so I'm going to believe in a literal Adam and Eve as first humans."

Are you able to step back enough, and look at your beliefs, and your attitudes, dispassionately enough to see if that's what you're really doing or not?