Adam Is Michael?

[jana at jade house]

In another thread.

[Doctor Steuss]

As Iâ??m delving more into this, Iâ??m finding a lot of accounts where Adam is visited by Michael (or seen with Michael) in various apocryphal accounts. This is beginning to appear to me to be a doctrine that is completely unique to modern-day revelation.

Groovy.

[Church Mouse]

That piece of misinformation is based not on any kind of accepted doctrine, but on a sentence uttered during a funeral address which has been mis reported and mis read ever since.

Although I agree with the rest of your post, Young repeatedly and unapologetically discussed the Adam-God theory in some detail. It was a persistent theme for Brigham with widespread ramifications on his relationships with other leaders and, apparently, his personal theology. He noted publicly that if he said too much about it it would be considered blasphemous by many. Orson Pratt, in particular, had strong reservations regarding Adam-God and voiced his opposition publicly and repeatedly, drawing rebukes from Brigham and the Twelve for his outspoken dissent against this principle.

There are a number of explanations for Brigham's theory and later recantations by LDS leadership, but the claim that it was a single incident either improperly transcribed or mis-spoken is unsupportable folklore, repeated enough times by enough people to be regarded as factual. Much like How to boil a frog, this legend deserves to be put to rest.

[consiglieri]

Dear Herr Doktor,

Setting aside the redundancy of "completely unique," I think that you are correct that it is unique, and that it is . . . groovy.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Doctor Steuss]

Dear Herr Doktor,

Setting aside the redundancy of "completely unique," I think that you are correct that it is unique, and that it is . . . groovy.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Setting aside the redundancy of "Herr Doktor" and "All the Best"...

[Thunderfire]

Hi, I'm new here so I haven't got used to everything yet. But I wanted to reply to this poster's question about Adam. According to the LDS Standard Works (SW) Adam is the only God the LDS have. While I understand both the church and its members no longer teach that 'doctrine', its still LDS doctrine if God never changes.

Well, this is a "little" different than what Joseph Smith brought as insight and revelation from God.

In 1835 the Apostles gathered at Kirtland seeking a revelation from Joseph that they might be comforted and enlightened prior to their duty. This is from the Doctrine and Covenants (section 104:28 RLDS/Utah 107):

â??Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enow, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all High Priests, with the residue of his posterity, who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.

And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the Prince, the Archangel.

And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him, I have set thee to be at the head: a multitude of nations shall come of thee; and thou art a prince over them foreverâ?¦â?

So Joseph wrote that Adam became Michael, the Archangel. The Lord â??appearedâ? to them and blessed Adam, giving him this new duty.

In Christ I Serve,

Thunderfire

[Cold Steel]

It was hardly a "new" duty but rather an old duty revealed. Perhaps Adam himself did not know his identity until later in life, as was the case with Joseph Smith (and we still don't know his identity. Gabriel also was identified as Noah. But some say this should be reversed because, after all, it was Michael who was the "Ark" angel....

[Doctor Steuss]

[...] as was the case with Joseph Smith (and we still don't know his identity.

Joseph might be Phanuel

Gabriel also was identified as Noah. But some say this should be reversed because, after all, it was Michael who was the "Ark" angel....

*Chuckle*

[rocmonkey]

This post began with the question of Adam and Michael being the same. Is it too much to ask that it remain on that topic. Adam's role in the premortal existance illustrated his exalted position. It's only right that Michael, as Adam, would be chosen just as the other prophets. As stated, we also learned that Gabriel is Noah; and Joseph Smith, shortly before his death, told his close friends that he had just learned who he was; however, he did not divulge that information.

If anyone wants to discuss the divine council, what constitutes a "god," and what Adam's role in that council was, that's another topic entirely.

If there is no such thing as a pre-existence (1 Cor. 15:46 [44-49]) how can Adam be anything but the first man. While Michael was one of God's greatest Angels before man was Created. There's really only two ways to look at this. You believe the Bible or you don't- and believe LDS teachings.

[Lachoneus]

If there is no such thing as a pre-existence (1 Cor. 15:46 [44-49]) how can Adam be anything but the first man. While Michael was one of God's greatest Angels before man was Created. There's really only two ways to look at this. You believe the Bible or you don't- and believe LDS teachings.

But there is a pre-mortal existence and it is taught by the Bible. Therefore, Michael can be both an Archangel and the first mortal man on this earth. Since your interpretation and understanding of the Bible are entirely unrelated to the truth taught by the Bible, we can believe both the Bible and LDS teachings because they are the same.

[e=mc2]

I'm with Lachoneus on this one...... course, I'm usually with Lachoneus on much of what he says as well........

[Dale]

Other faiths argue the Ancient of Days is God. Can the LDS view the Ancient of Days is not God be defended from scripture?

[Calm]

Dan 7:1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.

Dan 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Dan 7:4 The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and [it had] three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth [were of] iron, and his nails [of] brass; [which] devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Dan 7:28 Hitherto [is] the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

From blueletterbible.org (so I don't have to edit like I do on lds.org, lol)

Given that Christ is considerd the "Son of Man" in the scriptures and this Son of Man comes before the Ancient of Days, how would that work with a Trinitarian belief?

[Lachoneus]

Other faiths argue the Ancient of Days is God. Can the LDS view the Ancient of Days is not God be defended from scripture?

Is there any scriptural support for the belief that God the Father is the Ancient of Days? I know of none.

OTOH, Daniel says that the Ancient of Days will have a part in the judgment - see Daniel 7:10 (quoted above). But Jesus made it clear that The Father will judge no one. “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:” (John 5:22) If The Father judges no one but the Ancient of Days is involved in judgment, then the Ancient of Days is not The Father!

[Dale]

That's an interesting response. I recently read the Book of Enoch and it identified the Ancient of Days as God. I borrowed the book from another so don't have it to cite from.

I found some varying translations of Daniel 7:9 for comparison if the link works. http://bible.cc/daniel/7-9.htm

Isaiah 43:13 refers to God as being "from ancient days." (NIV)

[Lachoneus]

That's an interesting response. I recently read the Book of Enoch and it identified the Ancient of Days as God. I borrowed the book from another so don't have it to cite from.

I found some varying translations of Daniel 7:9 for comparison if the link works. http://bible.cc/daniel/7-9.htm

Isaiah 43:13 refers to God as being "from ancient days." (NIV)

Various titles can be applied to more than one individual. For example, Christ is also Adam. (1 Cor 15:45)

If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Gods (D&C 132:37), then certainly Adam is a God too, just like the book of Enoch says.

I would hope that an eternal God is "from ancient days."

[johnny]

Adam was NOT Michael the Archangel before he was created by God. Adam became a living soul, the soul does not exist before the body does. Every spiritual soul is created immediately by God. The human person is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. There are clear Biblical references that refute the idea of pre-mortal existence such as Zech 12:1 which reveals that the spirit of man is formed within him.

Adam is NOT the â??Ancient of Daysâ? spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel 7 is a vision of the heavenly throne of God (the Ancient One) who sits in judgment. God will judge the world in righteousness by that Son of Man whom he hath ordained. The Son of Man come from God, and went to God. All power is given unto the Son in heaven and in earth.

The Son of God created angels like Michael the Archangel. The man Jesus was not a angel like Michael before his incarnation, before his incarnation the Son was "the Word" of God.

[Lachoneus]

Adam was NOT Michael the Archangel before he was created by God. Adam became a living soul, the soul does not exist before the body does. Every spiritual soul is created immediately by God. The human person is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. There are clear Biblical references that refute the idea of pre-mortal existence such as Zech 12:1 which reveals that the spirit of man is formed within him.

After his pre-existing spirit entered his physical body, Michael became a living soul. Before that he was just a spirit. Zech 12:1 does not refute the idea of a pre-mortal existence. As shown in Gen 3:7, spirits enter physical bodies to create a soul. The spirits already exist.

Adam is NOT the â??Ancient of Daysâ? spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Daniel 7 is a vision of the heavenly throne of God (the Ancient One) who sits in judgment. God will judge the world in righteousness by that Son of Man whom he hath ordained. The Son of Man come from God, and went to God. All power is given unto the Son in heaven and in earth.

God the Father does not sit in judgment. â??For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:â? (John 5:22) The Ancient of Days is not God the Father.

The Son of God created angels like Michael the Archangel. The man Jesus was not a angel like Michael before his incarnation, before his incarnation the Son was "the Word" of God.

The Son of God did not create Michael. Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

After his pre-existing spirit entered his physical body, Michael became a living soul. Before that he was just a spirit. Zech 12:1 does not refute the idea of a pre-mortal existence. As shown in Gen 3:7, spirits enter physical bodies to create a soul. The spirits already exist.

Scipture does not reveal his pre-existing spirit entered his physical body, Genesis 2:7 reveals that God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" and man became a living soul. The spirit does not enter the physcial body, the spirit of man is formed within him (Zech 12:1).

Gen.2

[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Zech 12

[1] The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

God the Father does not sit in judgment. â??For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:â? (John 5:22) The Ancient of Days is not God the Father.

The Ancient of Days is God the Father. Acts 17:29-31 reveals God the Father will judge the world by the Son of Man whom he has ordained.

Acts.17

[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

The Son of God did not create Michael. Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

Psalm 148 reveals that the Lord created "all his angels".

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

[Lachoneus]

Scipture does not reveal his pre-existing spirit entered his physical body, Genesis 2:7 reveals that God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life" and man became a living soul. The spirit does not enter the physcial body, the spirit of man is formed within him (Zech 12:1).

The word translated as "breath" in Gen 2:7 also means "spirit." Genesis 2:7 reveals that God put Adam's spirit in his physical body and Adam became a living soul. Adam's spirit existed before God put it into Adam's body.

Zech 12:1 does not mean that the location of the formation of the spirit is within the body. It means that the spirit that is now within the body was formed by God. God already completed his creative works. (Gen 2:1) Therefore, all the spirits of men already exist and are not created immediately.

The Ancient of Days is God the Father. Acts 17:29-31 reveals God the Father will judge the world by the Son of Man whom he has ordained.

Acts 17:29-31 does not reveal that God the Father judges anyone. “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:” (John 5:22) The Son does the judging through his servants. The Ancient of Days is not God the Father.

Psalm 148 reveals that the Lord created "all his angels".

Adam is a son of God. (Luke 3:38) Adam is a spirit in a physical body. (Gen 2:7) Adam is Michael. (D&C 27:11)

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Genesis 2:7 does not reveal "Adam is a spirit in a physical body". Gen 2:1 does not reveal anything about spirits of men, Gen 2:1 simply says "all the host".

I would agree "breath" can also mean "spirit." According to the lexicon "breath" can also mean "breath". I interpret it as "breath" because this is consistent with Zech 12:1 which reveals that the location of the formation of the spirit is within the body.

I would differ with you on your interpretation of Zech 12:1 because Jeremiah 38:16 says "the Lord made us this soul.

The Ancient of Days is God the Father. The Ancient of Days is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God. God is the judge of all (Heb 12:23), he has committed all judgment unto the Son (John 5:22).

Psalm 148 reveals that the Lord created Michael the Archangel through a command (see below):

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

[cjcampbell]

Hi, I'm new here so I haven't got used to everything yet. But I wanted to reply to this poster's question about Adam. According to the LDS Standard Works (SW) Adam is the only God the LDS have. While I understand both the church and its members no longer teach that 'doctrine', its still LDS doctrine if God never changes.

No. Not even Brigham Young taught that and it is not found, nor was it ever found, in the standard works of the Church.

Adam was Michael, the arch-angel and he is the servant of God. Adam could never be the God that we worship. We revere Adam as the common ancestor of all mankind. Because of Adam we are able to experience mortality. But no one prays to Adam. Brigham Young did not pray to Adam. Adam, as the father of the human race, is responsible for all of us and must answer to God on our behalf. Adam is a god but not the God whom we worship.

In the last days, during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ, Adam will sit with God and Jesus Christ, but he will not supplant them. This is the doctrine taught in the standard works. It was taught by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and every prophet since. Some of Brigham Young's comments about Adam have been grossly misquoted and misinterpreted by members and non-members alike, but Brother Brigham's remarks should be seen in the context that he saw saw them -- Adam as an eternal being, the father of the human race, and servant of God. No one ever taught us to pray to Adam and people would be excommunicated for doing that.

[mnn727]

Well, let's see. The Journal of Discourse

Rocmonkey, isn't it amazing that someone (you) who is not LDS knows LDS doctrine so much better than people that have been LDS for decades. We salute your amazing depth of knowledge

NOT!

[roman]

The Son of God did not create Michael. Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

Major and I mean major misapplaication,interpertation and everything else under the sun that has to do with God, Jesus, the Bible.

The scriptures are clear that Michael is an angel-a created being, and we all know or we should anyway that Jesus created all-------------ALL----------ALL things Colossians 1:15-17

[Lachoneus]

Genesis 2:7 does not reveal "Adam is a spirit in a physical body".

Of course it does. Let me show you. "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [spirit]; and man became a living soul." (Gen 2:7) See? God made a physical body out of the dust of the ground and put Adam's spirit into it. Adam's spirit existed before God put it into Adam's body.

Gen 2:1 does not reveal anything about spirits of men, Gen 2:1 simply says "all the host".

"THUS the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them." (Gen 2:1) Thus, everything in heaven and on earth, including man, was created and God stopped creating. "And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made." (Gen 2:2) God ended His work. God does not make spirits immediately. All the spirits have already been created.

I would agree "breath" can also mean "spirit." According to the lexicon "breath" can also mean "breath". I interpret it as "breath" because this is consistent with Zech 12:1 which reveals that the location of the formation of the spirit is within the body.

I appreciate your interpretation, but I prefer to stay with the Word of God. Zech 12:1 says absolutely nothing about the location of the creation of spirits. God stopped his creative work a long time ago. God already made all the spirits of men. God just puts them into physical bodies just as Zechariah says.

I would differ with you on your interpretation of Zech 12:1 because Jeremiah 38:16 says "the Lord made us this soul.

Gen 2:7 already says that God made Adam a living soul. It also says He did this by putting Adam's spirit into Adam's physical body. Jeremiah 38:16 adds nothing to the discussion.

The Ancient of Days is God the Father. God is the judge of all (Heb 12:23), he has committed all judgment unto the Son (John 5:22). The heavenly throne in Daniel 7 is the throne of God, this is the same throne of God described in Ezekiel 1.

God the Father is not the Ancient of Days. The throne in Daniel 7 is not a heavenly throne. The events shown in Daniel 7 take place right here on earth. See Daniel 7:15-28 (see especially vv. 16, 17, 23)