Adam Is Michael?

[Lachoneus]

Major and I mean major misapplaication,interpertation and everything else under the sun that has to do with God, Jesus, the Bible.

Sorry to hear that you are unable to understand the word of God.

Michael and all other spirits were created only in the sense that the spirits of all men were created.

The scriptures are clear that Michael is an angel-a created being, and we all know or we should anyway that Jesus created all-------------ALL----------ALL things Colossians 1:15-17

Jesus did not create The Father nor himself -- therefore he did not create "all-------------ALL----------ALL things." Some things just cannot be created. (D&C 93:29)

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Gen 2:7 clearly says God put "the breath of life", it DOES NOT reveal God put the breath of Adam. .... "of life" is not the same as "of Adam". Job 33:4 says "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.".

Gen 2:17 clearly says "the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them", it DOES NOT SAY "everything in heaven and on earth, including man" ... let's stay with the Word of God.

Zech 12:1 clearly says "formeth the spirit of man within him", the location is "within him". Jeremiah 38:16 supports my interpretation of Zech 12:1, Jeremiah 38:16 says "the Lord made us this soul". The Lord did not put the soul inside a man, the soul is made and formed within the man.

The throne in Daniel 7 is a heavenly throne, Verse 13 says "the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days". The Ancient of days IS NOT Adam, it is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God.

Mormon theology is not consistent with the Bible. The Son created Michael the Archangel. All angels are created by a command from the Lord, they are not born of heavenly parents.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Michael and all other spirits were created only in the sense that the spirits of all men were created.

What sense are you referring too? The Bible says that angels were created by a command, the Bible does not reveal angels are born of heavenly parents like Mormon Church teaches.

Jesus did not create The Father nor himself -- therefore he did not create "all-------------ALL----------ALL things." Some things just cannot be created. (D&C 93:29)

Of course the Son did not create the Father ... a Son comes after a Father. The Son is not created because he is before all things. Angels are created by the Son.

[Lachoneus]

Gen 2:7 clearly says God put "the breath of life", it DOES NOT reveal God put the breath of Adam. .... "of life" is not the same as "of Adam".

Have it your way. God put someone else's spirit in Adam.

Gen 2:17 clearly says "the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them", it DOES NOT SAY "everything in heaven and on earth, including man" ... let's stay with the Word of God.

Have it your way. God created only the heavens and the earth. Everything else found in the heavens and on earth was created by someone else.

Zech 12:1 clearly says "formeth the spirit of man within him", the location is "within him". Jeremiah 38:16 supports my interpretation of Zech 12:1, Jeremiah 38:16 says "the Lord made us this soul". The Lord did not put the soul inside a man, the soul is made and formed within the man.

The spirit is now located in man. But that is not where is was originally formed. God created the spirits of all men before He finished his creative works, before the bodies of men were formed. Now he puts the previously created spirits into their respective bodies. A spirit plus a body is a soul. Gen 2:7.

The throne in Daniel 7 is a heavenly throne, Verse 13 says "the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days". The Ancient of days IS NOT Adam, it is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God.

Verse 13 says Jesus came out of the clouds of heaven down to earth just as the angels said he would in Acts 1:9-11.

Mormon theology is not consistent with the Bible. The Son created Michael the Archangel. All angels are created by a command from the Lord, they are not born of heavenly parents.

Your interpretation of the Bible is incorrect. LDS theology is correct and fully consistent with the Bible and all other scriptures given of the Lord. Christ did not create Michael the Archangel. All spirits were created in the same manner, including the spirits of men. The word "created" is not inconsistent with the concept of "being born."

[Lachoneus]

What sense are you referring too? The Bible says that angels were created by a command, the Bible does not reveal angels are born of heavenly parents like Mormon Church teaches.

The Bible does not contain all truths. Creation and birth are not incompatible concepts.

Of course the Son did not create the Father ... a Son comes after a Father. The Son is not created because he is before all things. Angels are created by the Son.

Since Jesus did not create either The Father or himself, he did not create "ALL" things. In addition, some things cannot be created. (D&C 93:29; John 1:3) The Son did not create the angels, but they are under his direction.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

I prefer my interpretation because it is consistent with scripture, Job 33:4 says "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Scripture does not support your idea that "he puts the previously created spirits into their respective bodies".

I did not say "Everything else found in the heavens and on earth was created by someone else" ... there is only God who created.

Neither Dan 7 nor Acts 1 reveal "Jesus came out of the clouds of heaven down to earth" as you have indicated. The Ancient of days IS NOT Adam, it is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God.

Dan.7

[13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

[14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Acts.1

[9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

[10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

[11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

You say "Christ did not create Michael the Archangel" ... Psalm 148 says Christ created all angels. In Psalm 148 the word "created" is not consistent with the concept of "being born" of heavenly parents because it says angels were created when he "commanded".

Pss.148

[2] Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

[5] Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

[Lachoneus]

An interesting article about Adam was published in the Millennial Star on 10 December 1853. Adam, the Father and God of the Human Family (you have to scroll down on the left to No. 50 and click on the article, sorry)

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

The Bible does not contain all truths. Creation and birth are not incompatible concepts.

The Bible clearly contains the truth that when the Son commanded angels were created.

The Son did not create the angels, but they are under his direction.

Psalm 148 clearly says the Son created the angels ... why do you disagree with the truth of the Bible?

[Lachoneus]

I prefer my interpretation because it is consistent with scripture, Job 33:4 says "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life." Scripture does not support your idea that "he puts the previously created spirits into their respective bodies".

Your interpretation is not consistent with scripture. Nor is it the word of God. The word of God says, "The Spirit of God hath made me and the breath [spirit] of the Almighty hath given me life." For Adam this happened when God put Adam's spirit into his body and Adam became a living soul. Gen 2:7. Adam's spirit existed before God put it into Adam's body.

I did not say "Everything else found in the heavens and on earth was created by someone else" ... there is only God who created.

So, just as I said, God created the spirits of all men. He finished his creative acts on the sixth day. Therefore, the spirits of all men have already been created and already exist.

Neither Dan 7 nor Acts 1 reveal "Jesus came out of the clouds of heaven down to earth" as you have indicated. The Ancient of days IS NOT Adam, it is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God.

The angels in Acts 1 were talking to men who were standing on the earth. The angels said that "this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:11) The meaning is clear. Just as Jesus went up from the earth into heaven, so he would come again down to earth out of heaven.

Your interpretation makes no sense and is contrary to scripture. How does Jesus come out of the clouds of heaven into heaven if he's already in heaven? According to the angels, Jesus will come again to the earth out of heaven just as he went up off the earth into heaven.

You say "Christ did not create Michael the Archangel" ... Psalm 148 says Christ created all angels. In Psalm 148 the word "created" is not consistent with the concept of "being born" of heavenly parents because it says angels were created when he "commanded".

There is no inconsistency between being born and being created. I created my children just as God created His.

BTW, do you think the movie "Birth of a Nation" was improperly titled?

[roman]

Lachoneus,

The Bible clearly contains the truth that when the Son commanded angels were created.

Psalm 148 clearly says the Son created the angels ... why do you disagree with the truth of the Bible?

Thanks Johnny-----you just beat me to the same answer I would have given.

I would like to see Lachoneus give his interpertation then of Col.1 15-17-------if he claims we are so wrong----------let him show us

Logic will tell us that Jesus NEVER created the Father-------so will the Bible so your point is not serving you

[Lachoneus]

The Bible clearly contains the truth that when the Son commanded angels were created.

And what does the word "created" mean in this context?

Psalm 148 clearly says the Son created the angels ... why do you disagree with the truth of the Bible?

No. The Bible is entirely correct. I do, however, disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.

Now, what does the word "created" mean in this context?

[roman]

And what does the word "created" mean in this context?

No. The Bible is entirely correct. I do, however, disagree with your interpretation of the Bible.

Now, what does the word "created" mean in this context?

It means ------------created

[Ron Beron]

I would like to see Lachoneus give his interpertation then of Col.1 15-17-------if he claims we are so wrong----------let him show us

What would be the conflict? Mormons believe that Jesus under the authority of God did create the universe. Elsewhere in the Bible it states that God operated with the assistance of hokma or wisdom. So what is the point?

[selek]

What would be the conflict? Mormons believe that Jesus under the authority of God did create the universe. Elsewhere in the Bible it states that God operated with the assistance of hokma or wisdom. So what is the point?

Come on, Ace. You know the answer. Johnny is out walking his dogma again.

[Lachoneus]

I would like to see Lachoneus give his interpertation then of Col.1 15-17-------if he claims we are so wrong----------let him show us

Do you disagree with the statement that Jesus did not create either The Father or himself? That alone is sufficient to show that Col. 1:15-17 is not absolute. Eternal things cannot be created. If they could be created, they would not be eternal. God and Christ are eternal.

John explains that Jesus made only those things that were made. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3) But Jesus did not make those things that cannot be made.

Another example of something that cannot be made is intelligence. "Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29) It cannot be made because it is eternal. That which is eternal cannot be made. If it could be made, it would not be eternal. Eternal means it has always existed and, therefore, was not created, ever.

Therefore, Col 1:15-17 is limited to non-eternal things. Christ created all the non-eternal things. All eternal things have always existed.

[roman]

What would be the conflict? Mormons believe that Jesus under the authority of God did create the universe. Elsewhere in the Bible it states that God operated with the assistance of hokma or wisdom. So what is the point?

The point is that Lachoneus is saying that Jesus didNOT create the angels. I want to try and understand his point

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Adam's spirit existed before God put it into Adam's body.

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

Therefore, the spirits of all men have already been created and already exist.

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

Just as Jesus went up from the earth into heaven, so he would come again down to earth out of heaven.

I would agree that Jesus will come again to the earth out of heaven just as he went up off the earth into heaven but Daniel 7 is not talking about this time.

Daniel 7:13,14 is talking about the time when the Son ascends unto heaven to his Father's throne and is given dominion, glory, and a kingdom. At the present time the Son is at the right hand of his Father (Heb 1:3,8 ) .

Heb.1

[3] Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

There is no inconsistency between being born and being created. I created my children just as God created His.

Were your children created when you commanded? The angels were created when the Lord commanded.

[roman]

Do you disagree with the statement that Jesus did not create either The Father or himself? That alone is sufficient to show that Col. 1:15-17 is not absolute. Eternal things cannot be created. If they could be created, they would not be eternal. God and Christ are eternal.

John explains that Jesus made only those things that were made. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3) But Jesus did not make those things that cannot be made.

Another example of something that cannot be made is intelligence. "Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29) It cannot be made because it is eternal. That which is eternal cannot be made. If it could be made, it would not be eternal. Eternal means it has always existed and, therefore, was not created, ever.

Therefore, Col 1:15-17 is limited to non-eternal things. Christ created all the non-eternal things. All eternal things have always existed.

I fully reject your understanding on Col. 1: 15-17 being limited. You can not and have not made that statment compatible with creation. The Bible is clear That Christ created EVERYTHING seen and unseen. Everything in Heaven and Earth. Thats pretty simple and straight forward, so you are in error when you say that Jesus didnot create the angels

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

And what does the word "created" mean in this context?

It means to "make" (Jeremiah 38:16).

It means to "form" (Zech 12:1).

[Lachoneus]

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

I've seen your posts. Thanks. Please see my earlier posts.

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

I've seen your posts. Thanks. Please see my earlier posts.

I would agree that Jesus will come again to the earth out of heaven just as he went up off the earth into heaven but Daniel 7 is not talking about this time.

Yes, it is. See the angel's explanation in vv. 15-28 where he says the things shown to Daniel take place on earth.

Daniel 7:13,14 is talking about the time when the Son ascends unto heaven to his Father's throne and is given dominion, glory, and a kingdom. At the present time the Son is at the right hand of his Father (Heb 1:3,8 ).

If the Son is now at The Father's side in heaven, how can he come out of the clouds of heaven into heaven to The Father? And you say he is already at The Father's side. How does he come to The Father if he is already there? It just does not make sense. Your interpretation is very confused.

Were your children created when you commanded?

When my wife commanded. She and I are "one." (Gen 2:23-24)

[Lachoneus]

I fully reject your understanding on Col. 1: 15-17 being limited. You can not and have not made that statment compatible with creation. The Bible is clear That Christ created EVERYTHING seen and unseen. Everything in Heaven and Earth. Thats pretty simple and straight forward, so you are in error when you say that Jesus didnot create the angels

I fully reject your understanding on Col. 1: 15-17 being unlimited. The Bible is clear that Christ created EVERYTHING that is non-eternal. Everything in Heaven and Earth. Thats pretty simple and straight forward, so you are in error when you say that Jesus created the angels

It means to "make" (Jeremiah 38:16).

It means to "form" (Zech 12:1).

Where does the Bible say which of these, if either, is the correct meaning for the word "created" as used in Psalms?

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Yes, it is. See the angel's explanation in vv. 15-28 where he says the things shown to Daniel take place on earth.

The events related to the saints take place on earth, but the Ancient of Days is in heaven. The Ancient of days IS NOT Adam, it is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God.

If the Son is now at The Father's side in heaven, how can he come out of the clouds of heaven into heaven to The Father? And you say he is already at The Father's side. How does he come to The Father if he is already there? It just does not make sense. Your interpretation is very confused.

At his ascension he "came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days" (Dan 7:13).

When my wife commanded. She and I are "one." (Gen 2:23-24)

Psalm 148 does not mention a wife ... it says the Lord commanded and the angels were created.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

I fully reject your understanding on Col. 1: 15-17 being unlimited. The Bible is clear that Christ created EVERYTHING that is non-eternal. Everything in Heaven and Earth. Thats pretty simple and straight forward, so you are in error when you say that Jesus created the angels

Angels are in heaven ... Christ created the angels.

Where does the Bible say which of these, if either, is the correct meaning for the word "created" as used in Psalms?

The correct meaning DOES NOT include a heavenly wife like the Mormon Church teaches. God was alone and by himself during creation (Isa 44; Isa 45).

Isa.44

[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isa.45

[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[12] I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

[roman]

I fully reject your understanding on Col. 1: 15-17 being unlimited. The Bible is clear that Christ created EVERYTHING that is non-eternal. Everything in Heaven and Earth. Thats pretty simple and straight forward, so you are in error when you say that Jesus created the angels

You have yet to show that Jesus did not create the angels, from scriputre. Can you-when the Bible is quite clear that he did. Psalms 148:2-5 is added to support my belief

I fully reject your understanding on Col. 1: 15-17 being unlimited. The Bible is clear that Christ created EVERYTHING that is non-eternal. Everything in Heaven and Earth. Thats pretty simple and straight forward, so you are in error when you say that Jesus created the angels

Where does the Bible say which of these, if either, is the correct meaning for the word "created" as used in Psalms?

What is the meaning of the word created then as used in Psalms 148?-------------just tell us

[Lachoneus]

The events related to the saints take place on earth, but the Ancient of Days is in heaven. The Ancient of days IS NOT Adam, it is the Most High God, men are children of the Most High God.

That is not what the Bible says; that is your interpretation of the Bible. I reject your interpretation. The Ancient of Days is Adam. All the events in Daniel 7 take place on the earth.

Men's spirits are the literal children of the Most High God. Men's bodies all descend from Adam, who was the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

At his ascension he "came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days" (Dan 7:13).

At his ascension he went up from the earth into heaven "and a cloud received him out of their sight." In Dan 7:13, he comes "with the clouds of heaven" out of heaven back to earth.

Psalm 148 does not mention a wife ... it says the Lord commanded and the angels were created.

Remember, we already agreed that the Bible does not contain all truths. That Psalm 148 does not mention a wife is meaningless. Luke 3:23-38 also does not mention any wives, but I don't think you will argue that all these men created their sons without wives, will you? Notice that in verse 38 God reveals that Adam is his son, the same as all the sons previously mentioned in the prior verses.