Adam Is Michael?

[Lachoneus]

Angels are in heaven ... Christ created the angels.

Christ did not create the angels. Angels are eternal and cannot be created.

The correct meaning DOES NOT include a heavenly wife like the Mormon Church teaches. God was alone and by himself during creation (Isa 44; Isa 45).

God was not alone in the creation. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:26-27)

If God was alone, who was He talking to and how does the image of God include both the male and the female?

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

That is not what the Bible says; that is your interpretation of the Bible. I reject your interpretation. The Ancient of Days is Adam. All the events in Daniel 7 take place on the earth.

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

Men's spirits are the literal children of the Most High God. Men's bodies all descend from Adam, who was the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

Men are NOT the literal children of a heavenly mother because our Heavenly Father was alone and by himself during creation.

At his ascension he went up from the earth into heaven "and a cloud received him out of their sight." In Dan 7:13, he comes "with the clouds of heaven" out of heaven back to earth.

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

Remember, we already agreed that the Bible does not contain all truths. That Psalm 148 does not mention a wife is meaningless. Luke 3:23-38 also does not mention any wives, but I don't think you will argue that all these men created their sons without wives, will you?

The Bible reveals the truth that our Heavenly Father was alone and by himself during creation. If our Heavenly Father was alone then their was no heavenly mother like the Mormon Church teaches.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Christ did not create the angels. Angels are eternal and cannot be created.

Angels had a beginning when they were created by the Son. Scripture is clear that angels are created.

If God was alone, who was He talking to and how does the image of God include both the male and the female?

God's word and God's wisdom were with God. Scripture is clear that God was alone and by himself during creation. God is neither male nor female, scripture simply says "male and female created he them".

[Lachoneus]

You have yet to show that Jesus did not create the angels, from scriputre. Can you-when the Bible is quite clear that he did. Psalms 148:2-5 is added to support my belief.

I already addressed this back in post #65. Eternal things cannot be created. (John 1:3)

What is the meaning of the word created then as used in Psalms 148?-------------just tell us

According to one Hebrew lexicon, the word baraâ?? (translated as â??createdâ? in Gen 1:1 and Ps 148:5) can mean â??formâ? â??fashionâ? â??shapeâ? â??cut downâ? â??cut outâ? â??be fatâ? â??makeâ? â??chooseâ? â??dispatch.â? It also indicates that the word can be applied to the circumstances â??of birth.â? In Psalms 148:5 it means â??organized.â? Christ organized all the named things under the direction of The Father.

[Lachoneus]

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

I have read your prior posts. See my prior posts.

Men are NOT the literal children of a heavenly mother because our Heavenly Father was alone and by himself during creation.

No, He was not. See Gen 1:26-27. Who was he talking to? How is the female created in God's image if God was alone?

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

I have read your prior posts. See my prior posts.

The Bible reveals the truth that our Heavenly Father was alone and by himself during creation. If our Heavenly Father was alone then their was no heavenly mother like the Mormon Church teaches.

He was not alone. See Gen 1:26-27. Who was he talking to? How is the female created in God's image if God was alone?

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

No, He was not. See Gen 1:26-27. Who was he talking to? How is the female created in God's image if God was alone?

Scripture reveals that God's Word and God's Wisdom were with God during creation. Genesis 2:21 tells us how the female was created. God was alone during creation.

He was not alone.

Isaiah 44 clearly says he was alone and by himself ... he says "I" maketh all things. There was no heavenly mother.

Isa.44

[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

[Lachoneus]

Angels had a beginning when they were created by the Son. Scripture is clear that angels are created.

The Bible does not say they had a beginning. They were organized by the Son, under the direction of The Father. The Father created them in the same sense that I created my children.

God's word and God's wisdom were with God. Scripture is clear that God was alone and by himself during creation. God is neither male nor female, scripture simply says "male and female created he them".

If the "word" you mention was Jesus Christ, then you are admitting that God was not alone.

If the "wisdom" you mention is a concept like "knowledge" and not an sentient being, then your comment is irrelevant. If the "wisdom" you mention is a sentient being, then God was not alone, was He?

The word translated "God" is a plural. God and His Wife are one, just like Adam and Eve were one. (Gen 2:24) In this sense, "God" is both male and female; otherwise Gen 1:27 makes no sense.

[Lachoneus]

Genesis 2:21 tells us how the female was created. God was alone during creation.

You are right, it does tell how Eve was created. No, God was not alone during the creation.

The â??ribâ? spoken of by Moses in Genesis 2:21-22 is not an actual rib. In fact, the English word rib is a very poor translation of the original Hebrew word tsela (tsay-lawâ??) (Strongs 6763). In the Hebrew Old Testament the word tsela appears on at least 41 occasions. Of those several occurrences, in the King James Bible the word tsela is most often translated as side (19 times), followed by chamber (referring to the side-chambers of the Temple) (11 times). In deed, the Hebrew word tsela is translated only twice as rib in the entire King James Bible, and both incidences occur in the account of the creation of Eve in Genesis 2:21-22. It would therefore appear that the word side is a much better translation of the original Hebrew than the English word rib.

In the context in which the words rib and side are used here, the word bowels appears to be an even better translation than the word side. The Hebrew word for bowels is meâ??ah (mayâ?? aw) (Strongs 4578 and 1227a) (see Genesis 15:4). This word means both â??organs of procreationâ? and â??seat of emotions,â? among other possible translations. In the Old Testament meâ??ah appears at least 33 times. Of those 33 occurrences in the King James Bible, the word is translated as bowels 27 times and almost always refers to the male reproductive organs. For example, in Genesis 15:4, 25:23; 2 Samuel 7:12, 16:11; 2 Chronicles 32:21; Psalms 71:6; Isaiah 48:19 (cf. 1 Ne 20:19) and Isaiah 49:1 (cf. 1 Ne 21:1), the word meâ?? ah is translated as bowels but clearly refers to the reproductive organs.

This matter is both further complicated and ultimately clarified when we understand the meaning of the Hebrew word laqach (law-kakhâ??) (Strongâ??s 3947). According to Strongâ??s Hebrew dictionary, the word laqach literally means â??to take (in the widest variety of applications): -- accept, . . . carry away, . . . receive.â? According to BibleWorks, the word laqach also means to â??marry, take a wife . . . take in marriage.â? In other words, the Hebrew word laqach means both â??to take out ofâ? and â??to marryâ? and is used in both senses in the scriptures. When it is applied to Eveâ??s Father, it means â??to take out of.â? When it is applied to her husband, it means â??to marry.â? That Moses chose this particular word (Gen 2:23) to say that Eve was â??taken out ofâ? man, he is making a reference both to the fact that Eve was born of God through the natural process and that she was taken by Michael in marriage. In other words, Elohim â??tookâ? Eve from Himself while Michael â??tookâ? Eve in marriage. Thus, we see that the story of Eve being made from Adamâ??s rib was merely an analogy, a figurative expression, and that what God was actually teaching was that Eve was literally born of her Father and that Michael and Eve were married in the Garden of Eden. â??She shall be called woman because she was born of Man and taken in marriage by man.â?

Isaiah 44 clearly says he was alone and by himself ... he says "I" maketh all things. There was no heavenly mother.

Genesis 1:26-27 clearly says that God was not alone or by himself. He says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

The Bible does not say they had a beginning. They were organized by the Son, under the direction of The Father. The Father created them in the same sense that I created my children.

You created your children with a spouse. The Father did not have a wife during creation, he was alone (Isa 44:24). Angels are created just like darkness, angels and darkness are created with a command.

If the "word" you mention was Jesus Christ, then you are admitting that God was not alone.

If the "wisdom" you mention is a concept like "knowledge" and not an sentient being, then your comment is irrelevant. If the "wisdom" you mention is a sentient being, then God was not alone, was He?

He was alone, Jeremiah 10 explain how "he" created.

Jer.10

[12] He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.

[13] When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.

1Cor.1

[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The word translated "God" is a plural. God and His Wife are one, just like Adam and Eve were one. (Gen 2:24) In this sense, "God" is both male and female; otherwise Gen 1:27 makes no sense.

God is one but not solitary. Gen 1:27 makes complete sense when read with John 1:1(Word was with God) and with Prov 8:27(Wisdom was with God). God was alone, there was no wife.

[roman]

I already addressed this back in post #65. Eternal things cannot be created. (John 1:3)

John 1:3 say no such thing--------as you would imply. It simply goes with Col. 1:15-17 that Christ made everything. thats the plain reading of both text and surrounding scripture

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

Thus, we see that the story of Eve being made from Adamâ??s rib was merely an analogy, a figurative expression, and that what God was actually teaching was that Eve was literally born of her Father and that Michael and Eve were married in the Garden of Eden.

The New Testament would disagree with you (see below).

1Tim.2

[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Gen.2

[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Genesis 1:26-27 clearly says that God was not alone or by himself.

Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God. Genesis 1 reveals that God was alone, it says "God created" ... it DOES NOT say many Gods created. Malachi 2:10 say one God created.

Mal.2

[10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Gen.1

[26] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[27] So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[29] And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

[30] And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

[Lachoneus]

You created your children with a spouse. The Father did not have a wife during creation, he was alone (Isa 44:24).

God was not alone. (Gen 1:26-27)

God is one but not solitary. Gen 1:27 makes complete sense when read with John 1:1(Word was with God) and with Prov 8:27(Wisdom was with God). God was alone, there was no wife.

If God is not solitary, He was not alone. If the Word was with Him, He was not alone. If Wisdom is sentient, He was not alone. God was not alone.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

God was not alone. (Gen 1:26-27)

God's Word and God's Wisdom was with him. God was alone (Isa 44:24).

If God is not solitary, He was not alone. If the Word was with Him, He was not alone. If Wisdom is sentient, He was not alone. God was not alone.

Clearly he was NOT with a heavenly wife like the Mormon Church teaches.

[Lachoneus]

The New Testament would disagree with you (see below).

That Adam was born first does not mean that the story of the rib was not allegorical.

Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God. Genesis 1 reveals that God was alone, it says "God created" ... it DOES NOT say many Gods created.

Actually, it does. The word for "God" in the creation account is a Hebrew plural. Genesis 1 uses a plural word for God.

[Lachoneus]

John 1:3 say no such thing--------as you would imply. It simply goes with Col. 1:15-17 that Christ made everything. thats the plain reading of both text and surrounding scripture.

John 1:3 says that Jesus made those things that were made. Clearly he did not make those things that were not made. Eternal things are not made.

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

That Adam was born first does not mean that the story of the rib was not allegorical.

1Tim 2:13 speaks of them being formed ... scripture does not reveal "Adam was born" as you have indicated.

Actually, it does. The word for "God" in the creation account is a Hebrew plural. Genesis 1 uses a plural word for God.

Plural does not imply a heavenly mother ...

[Dale]

I see Zacahariah 12:1 as saying God is the one that formeth the spirit within man. I do not see it as

being clear where he created man's spirit.

[Lachoneus]

God's Word and God's Wisdom was with him. God was alone (Isa 44:24). Clearly he was NOT with a heavenly wife like the Mormon Church teaches.

If the Word and Wisdom were with Him, He was not alone. (Gen 1:26-27) "God" is a plural word in Hebrew. (Gen 1:26-27) God created both male and female in His image. (Gen 1:26-27)

Adam is the son of God just like others are the sons of fathers. (Luke 3:38) All the other fathers had wives. How do you have a father without a mother? Do you seriously think Adam did not have a mother? Even Christ had a mother and God was his father too!

[Lachoneus]

1Tim 2:13 speaks of them being formed ... scripture does not reveal "Adam was born" as you have indicated.

My children were formed by me and my wife the same way Adam was formed of his parents.

Plural does not imply a heavenly mother ...

That is exactly what it does imply, among other things.

I see Zacahariah 12:1 as saying God is the one that formeth the spirit within man. I do not see it as being clear where he created man's spirit.

Exactly!

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

John 1:3 says that Jesus made those things that were made. Clearly he did not make those things that were not made. Eternal things are not made.

He made the angels in heaven, the invisible angels are not eternal.

Col.1

[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

If the Word and Wisdom were with Him, He was not alone. (Gen 1:26-27) "God" is a plural word in Hebrew. (Gen 1:26-27) God created both male and female in His image. (Gen 1:26-27)

If he was not alone please explain Isaiah 44:24 and Mal 2:10.

Isa.44

[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Mal.2

[10] Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?

Adam is the son of God just like others are the sons of fathers. (Luke 3:38) All the other fathers had wives. How do you have a father without a mother? Do you seriously think Adam did not have a mother? Even Christ had a mother and God was his father too!

Genesis 2 reveals that Adam did not have a mother.

My children were formed by me and my wife the same way Adam was formed of his parents.

Which verse reveals Adam had parents?

That is exactly what it does imply, among other things.

Please explain ... how does the plural form of God imply a heavenly mother.

[roman]

John 1:3 says that Jesus made those things that were made. Clearly he did not make those things that were not made. Eternal things are not made.

Well then back this up with scritpture-please don't say that you have because you clearly have not The Bible is clear Jesus made or created it all

[Lachoneus]

He made the angels in heaven, the invisible angels are not eternal.

That is not what the Bible says. That is your interpretation, which I reject.

If he was not alone please explain Isaiah 44:24 and Mal 2:10.

If he was alone, please explain Gen 1:26-27.

Genesis 2 reveals that Adam did not have a mother.

No, it does not.

[Lachoneus]

Well then back this up with scritpture-please don't say that you have because you clearly have not The Bible is clear Jesus made or created it all

Don't say that I have not because I already did, back in post #65, but just for you here it is again:

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

(John 1:3 - this is a scripture)

Christ only made those things that were made. The eternal things cannot be made because they are eternal -- they always existed. Christ did not make the eternal things. How could Christ create things that already existed?

[johnny]

Lachoneus,

That is not what the Bible says. That is your interpretation, which I reject.

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

If he was alone, please explain Gen 1:26-27.

God's Word and God's Wisdom was with him. Gen 1:27 makes complete sense when read with John 1:1(God's Word was with God) and with Prov 8:27(God's Wisdom was with God). God was alone (Isa 44:24), there was no wife.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas, it has been fun but my wife is calling. I will respond tomorrow.

johnny

[Lachoneus]

I would disagree (see my earlier posts).

I have read your earlier post. See my earlier posts.

God's Word and God's Wisdom was with him. Gen 1:27 makes complete sense when read with John 1:1(God's Word was with God) and with Prov 8:27(God's Wisdom was with God). God was alone (Isa 44:24), there was no wife.

You cannot say that He was with someone and at the same time He was not with anyone. He was either with someone (the Word, Wisdom, anyone else you care to name), or He was alone. Genesis 1:26-27 says He was with someone.

Thanks for the exchange of ideas, it has been fun but my wife is calling. I will respond tomorrow.

I enjoyed it also. My wife is at work, my daughters are at work, I am alone.