Mormons And The Catholic Church

[Ron Beron]

EnemyAce,

You say it is official ... therefore you would agree that the LDS church officially teaches that those in the Catholic Church who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell?

Catholic Girl brought up a good point ... what does Bruce R. McConkie mean by "hell"?

I think that James Talmage said it best in Article of Faith...

Baptismâ??The Latter-day Saints are opposed to the practise of infant baptism, which indeed they believe to be a sacrilege. No one having faith in the word of God can look upon the child as culpably wicked; such an innocent being needs no initiation into the fold, for he has never strayed therefrom; he needs no remission of sins for he has committed no sin; and should he die before he has become contaminated by the sins of earth he will be received without baptism into the paradise of God. Yet there are many professedly Christian teachers who aver that as all children are born into a wicked world they are themselves wicked, and must be cleansed in the waters of baptism to be made acceptable to God. Such doctrine is heinous. The child to whom the Savior pointed as an example of emulation for those even who had received the holy apostleship, fn the Lord's selected type of the kingdom of heaven, the favored spirits whose angels stand forever in the presence of the Father, faithfully reporting all that may be done unto their charges fnâ??are such souls to be rejected and cast into torment because their earthly guardians failed to have them baptized? To teach such false doctrine is sin.

Baptism/114The History of Infant Baptism is instructive as throwing light upon the origin of this erratic practise. It is certain that the baptism of infants, or pedobaptism (Greek paidos, child, and baptismos, baptism) as it is styled in theological lore, was not taught by the Savior, nor by His apostles. Some point to the incident of Christ blessing children, and rebuking those who would forbid the little ones coming unto Him, fn as an evidence in favor of infant baptism; but as has been wisely and tersely remarked: "From the action of Christ's blessing infants, to infer they are to be baptized, proves nothing so much as that there is a want of better argument; for the conclusion would with more probability be derived thus: Christ blessed infants, and so dismissed them, but baptized them not; therefore infants are not to be baptized." fn

Baptism/11There is no authentic record of infant baptism having been practised during the first two centuries after Christ, and the custom probably did not become general before the fifth century; from the time last named until the Reformation, however, it was accepted by the dominant church organizationâ??the Roman Catholic. But even during that dark age many theological disputants raised their voices against this unholy rite. fn In the early part of the sixteenth century, a sect rose into prominence in Germany, under the name of Anabaptists (Greek ana, again, and baptizo, baptize) distinguished for its opposition to the practise of infant baptism, and deriving its name from the requirement made of all its members who had been baptized in infancy that they be baptized again. The Baptists in general maintain a unity of belief in opposing the baptism of irresponsible children, but are not to be regarded as otherwise identical with the Anabaptist denomination.

Baptism/11Some pedobaptists have attempted to prove an analogy between baptism and circumcision, but without scriptural warrant. Circumcision was made the mark of a covenant between God and Abraham, fn a symbol regarded by the posterity of Abraham as indicative of their freedom from the idolatry of the times, and of God's acceptance of them; and nowhere is circumcision made a means for remission of sins. That rite was applicable to males only; baptism is administered to both sexes. Circumcision was to be performed on the eighth day after birth, even though such should fall on the Sabbath. fn In the third century a council of bishops was held under the presidency of Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage, at which it was gravely determined that to postpone baptism until the eighth day after birth was hazardous and consequently not to be allowed.

Baptism/116Infant Baptism is Forbidden in the Book of Mormon, from which fact we infer that disputation upon this subject had arisen among the Nephites. Mormon, having received special revelation from the Lord concerning the matter, wrote an epistle thereon to his son Moroni, in which he denounces the practise of infant baptism, and declares that any one who supposes that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity, denying the mercies of Christ, and setting at naught His atonement and the power of His redemption.

EnemyAce,

Do you believe the offical LDS magazine Ensign ... do you believe that that those in the Catholic Church who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell?

I answered your questions...now answer mine in regards to the church condoning hiding molesters.

[johnny]

calmoriah,

So those who misunderstand the gospel by using infant baptism--misunderstand at least by LDS standards--and have not corrected their understanding by the time of their death, will need to learn and accept the truth through repentance as we all will have to endure correction with our imperfect understanding.

At Final Judgment, do those who baptize little children in this world and reject the LDS gospel in spirit prison go to everlasting punishment or life eternal (Matt 25)?

Matt.25

[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[johnny]

EnemyAce,

I answered your questions...

So your answer is similiar to James Talmage, he says "that any one who supposes that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity"

From you answers it appears you have little regard my Catholic faith because I believe little children need baptism.

now answer mine in regards to the church condoning hiding molesters.

Clearly this is not offical Catholic doctrine ...

[Ron Beron]

So your answer is similiar to James Talmage, he says "that any one who supposes that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity"

From you answers it appears you have little regard my Catholic faith because I believe little children need baptism.

I have little regard for this teaching of the Catholics because it is not at all doctrinal unless you accept the teaching of post-apostolic leaders. I do, however, have high regards for Catholics in sum.

Clearly this is not offical Catholic doctrine

Nor is it official Mormon Doctrine that the RC is anything other than that which it presents, and certainly not the 'whore of Babylon'.

[Catholic Girl]

Ah.

McConkie DID reserve a nice warm spot for us in hell, Johnny. It is clearly the hell we're familiar with. No confusion here.

Page 349-351 "Mormon Doctrine"

1. That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell. Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11-14; D. & C. 76:103-106.)

Who will go to hell? This query is abundantly answered in the scriptures. Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual, and devilish -- those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers (D. & C. 76:103), false swearers, "those that oppress the hireling in his wages," the proud, "and all that do wickedly." (Mal. 3; 4; 2 Ne. 9:27-39; 26:10.)

Several specific groups of wicked persons are singled out to receive the prophetic curse that their destination is the fires of hell. "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God," David proclaimed. (Ps. 9:17.) Sex sin is rewarded with the torments of hell. (2 Ne. 9:36 Prov. 7:6-27.) "Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell." (D. & C. 121:23.) Such also is the fate of liars (2 Ne. 9:34), of "all those who preach false doctrines" (2 Ne. 28:15), of those who believe the damnable doctrine of infant baptism (Moro. 8:14, 21), of the rich who will not help the poor (D. & C. 104:18; Luke 16:19-31), and of those who heap cursings on their fellow men. (Matt. 5:22; 3 Ne. 12:22.) "The sectarian world are going to hell by hundreds, by thousands and by millions," the Prophet said. (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 554.)

I wonder what Orson Pratt's definition of hell is?

The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell; (Orson Prattâ??s Works, p. 189-190)

[johnny]

EnemyAce,

Nor is it official Mormon Doctrine that the RC is anything other than that which it presents, and certainly not the 'whore of Babylon'.

So does the Catholic Church present itself as the church of the Lamb of God or as the church of the devil (1 Nephi 14:10)?

[saemo]

Catholic Girl, I'm not sticking up for the mormon church, but what I found when I was "researching" this topic are the same things you found. But, in 1985-1988 someone flipped a switch and declared that "we never said that about Catholics!" And that is what mormons have been saying and teaching ever since.

But the stuff you are finding, I was taught, repeatedly. And was one of the reasons I exited from mormonism. I have good catholic friends and I could never reconcile in my heart that God was sending them anywhere close to hell. Later, I just stopped believing in God altogether.

[Calm]

calmoriah,

At Final Judgment, do those who baptize little children in this world and reject the LDS gospel in spirit prison go to everlasting punishment or life eternal (Matt 25)?

Matt.25

[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Do you really not know this answer, johnny, after hanging out on this board for so long?

[johnny]

Ah.

McConkie DID reserve a nice warm spot for us in hell, Johnny. It is clearly the hell we're familiar with. No confusion here.

Page 349-351 "Mormon Doctrine"

1. That part of the spirit world inhabited by wicked spirits who are awaiting the eventual day of their resurrection is called hell. Between their death and resurrection, these souls of the wicked are cast out into outer darkness, into the gloomy depression of sheol, into the hades of waiting wicked spirits, into hell. There they suffer the torments of the damned; there they welter in the vengeance of eternal fire; there is found weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth; there the fiery indignation of the wrath of God is poured out upon the wicked. (Alma 40:11-14; D. & C. 76:103-106.)

Who will go to hell? This query is abundantly answered in the scriptures. Since those going to a telestial kingdom travel to their destination through the depths of hell and as a result of obedience to telestial law, it follows that all those who live a telestial law will go to hell. Included among these are the carnal, sensual, and devilish -- those who live after the manner of the world. Among them are the sorcerers, adulterers, whoremongers (D. & C. 76:103), false swearers, "those that oppress the hireling in his wages," the proud, "and all that do wickedly." (Mal. 3; 4; 2 Ne. 9:27-39; 26:10.)

Several specific groups of wicked persons are singled out to receive the prophetic curse that their destination is the fires of hell. "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God," David proclaimed. (Ps. 9:17.) Sex sin is rewarded with the torments of hell. (2 Ne. 9:36 Prov. 7:6-27.) "Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell." (D. & C. 121:23.) Such also is the fate of liars (2 Ne. 9:34), of "all those who preach false doctrines" (2 Ne. 28:15), of those who believe the damnable doctrine of infant baptism (Moro. 8:14, 21), of the rich who will not help the poor (D. & C. 104:18; Luke 16:19-31), and of those who heap cursings on their fellow men. (Matt. 5:22; 3 Ne. 12:22.) "The sectarian world are going to hell by hundreds, by thousands and by millions," the Prophet said. (History of the Church, vol. 5, p. 554.)

I wonder what Orson Pratt's definition of hell is?

The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell; (Orson Prattâ??s Works, p. 189-190)

McConkie DID reserve a nice warm spot for us in hell, Johnny. It is clearly the hell we're familiar with. No confusion here.

Page 349-351 "Mormon Doctrine"

I wonder what Orson Pratt's definition of hell is?

Catholic Girl,

I would agree with you, it clearly sounds like the hell we're familiar with ...

johnny

[johnny]

calmoriah,

Do you really not know this answer, johnny, after hanging out on this board for so long?

So I assume your answer is ... Catholics who baptize little children in this world and reject the LDS gospel in spirit prison go into everlasting punishment.

[Catholic Girl]

Catholic Girl, I'm not sticking up for the mormon church, but what I found when I was "researching" this topic are the same things you found. But, in 1985-1988 someone flipped a switch and declared that "we never said that about Catholics!" And that is what mormons have been saying and teaching ever since.

But the stuff you are finding, I was taught, repeatedly. And was one of the reasons I exited from mormonism. I have good catholic friends and I could never reconcile in my heart that God was sending them anywhere close to hell. Later, I just stopped believing in God altogether.

I know. I'm not fooled and neither are my fellow Catholics and Protestant brothers and sisters here.

My husband was taught the same growing up and still would be if he still lived at home!

[Catholic Girl]

Getting into that Spirit Prison thing.....

So when you are "hurled down into hell" ....it appears to be a temporary situation which can be rectified if you accept "the gospel".

From my favorite Mormon author, McConkie. (I so want his book! I'm checking Ebay)

â??The great principles and procedures whereby the saving truths of the gospel are offered to, accepted by, and made binding upon the departed dead, comprise the doctrine of salvation for the dead. Pursuant to this doctrine the principles of salvation are taught in the spirit world, leaving the ordinances thereof to be performed in this life on a vicarious proxy basis. By accepting the gospel in the spirit world, and because the ordinances of salvation and exaltation are performed vicar

[why me]

EnemyAce,

You say it is official ... therefore you would agree that the LDS church officially teaches that those in the Catholic Church who baptize little children will be thrust down to hell?

Catholic Girl brought up a good point ... what does Bruce R. McConkie mean by "hell"?

First, in the lds faith very few individuals will end up in actual hell. I am sure that you know the three degrees of glory. Second, such wording does have strong figurative connotations because it is meant to impress. If one reads the old testament and what it says about life and sin, we will all be in hell upon death.

You need to see with an open mind just what is being said on these boards. And yet, can you please comment on the Catholic quotation which condemns babies who have not been baptized? Is that just? And then read what the lds believe happens when an infant dies. Please tell me what practice is more just upon death of the infant.

[why me]

Getting into that Spirit Prison thing.....

So when you are "hurled down into hell" ....it appears to be a temporary situation which can be rectified if you accept "the gospel".

From my favorite Mormon author, McConkie. (I so want his book! I'm checking Ebay)

So explain these in the Book of Mormon:

2 Nephi 9:38:

Alma 34: 35-36

2 Nephi 15-16

Isn't this a clear contradiction?

Again what is the mormon defintion of hell and who will go there? As I said to Johnny, very few people end up in hell. And so, keep your glee under check. It is the catholics which condemn people to hell and not the lds.

I am not surprised about your love for McConkie. He seems to fit your mind pattern quite well. However, please notice what has been said about that book and how it was condemned by the first presidency at that time. But seeing that you are an 'open' minded individual, I am sure that you will not make that distinction. An I right?

[tundramom]

I hope that you have now set your family straight on this subject.

The Song of Bernedette is a great film and it was my Catholic mother's favorite. I still remember her having a tear in her eye when watching it. It is quite remarkable the similiarities of Bernedette and JS. Both were considered uneducated and yet both claimed visions. And both gave hope to millions of people. And both were disbelieved when the visions occured.

You can mention such similiarites to your Mormon extended family.

And you my friend can put in a good word for the lds if you ever hear such a thing among your catholic friends. Change begins with a conversation. We all need to have good discussions and conversation to change closed mindedness to open mindedness.

I would, but since they won't speak with me it's a little difficult.

in Christ

Steph

This is absolutely bizarre behaviour if required by adults unless one is passing through a neighbourhood gunfight. I have not a clue what reasoning an adult would go through to come up with something like this. Certainly nothing in the scriptures or teachings of the Church leads to this type of fear.

If it's more along the lines of kids holding their breath as they pass by graveyards, then I can understand it.

Indeed.

I agree Cal. But it happened.

[why me]

But the stuff you are finding, I was taught, repeatedly. And was one of the reasons I exited from mormonism. I have good catholic friends and I could never reconcile in my heart that God was sending them anywhere close to hell. Later, I just stopped believing in God altogether.

I seriously doubt that this is the reason why you left the lds church. First Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. was repudiated by the lds leadership. Second, anyone who leaves because lay people said this or that is a sad case indeed. You know and I know that there must have been other reasons for you leaving. Oh by the way, if catholics were saying that mormons are not christians, would you have seen your RC friends differently? Because the leadership of the catholic church, including their TV station say just that.

And as I said before, the lds do not believe in the same hell as other faiths. Very few individuals go to hell. If you were lds, you would have known about the three kingdoms and you would have known about what happens upon death to those who have not heard the gospel. AM I right?

Sorry you left under such pretenses. But you were sadly mistaken in lds doctrine.

[johnny]

why me,

First, in the lds faith very few individuals will end up in actual hell.

You say "in the lds faith their are very few individuals will end up in actual hell" according to the Bible their are many individuals that end up in actual hell (see scriptures below).

Rev 21

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Matt.25

[30] And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[38] When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

[39] Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

[40] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Rev.20

[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I am sure that you know the three degrees of glory.

Scripture reveals that after final judgment their are not three degrees of glory.

And yet, can you please comment on the Catholic quotation which condemns babies who have not been baptized? Is that just?

As regards to babies who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God.

This is just because those babies, like all human beings, have free will and they can freely decide to reject or accept God.

Babies do not go automatically into the celestial kingdom because this would deny them their free will to choose or reject God.

Again what is the mormon defintion of hell and who will go there?

The mormon defination of hell is not consistent with the scripture of the Bible.

Hell is where the devil is.

I am not surprised about your love for McConkie. He seems to fit your mind pattern quite well. However, please notice what has been said about that book and how it was condemned by the first presidency at that time.

McConkie defination of "hell" sounds like the place where their is "everlasting punishement". The unprofitable servants are in everlasting punishment and in outer darkness because they are away from their God.

These many individuals:

- do not inherit the Father's kingdom

- depart from the Son

- are cursed.

- are cast into the lake of fire with the devil

And as I said before, the lds do not believe in the same hell as other faiths.

Again lds do not believe in the same hell that is revealed in the Bible.

Those in hell are in the same place where the devil is

AM I right?

If you are right then please explain the LDS doctrine of hell using the scriptures above ... thanks.

[St Veronica]

Just to clarify...someone mentioned the Catholic Digest....that is not an official magazine of the Catholic Church.

As far as the unbaptized infants....we entrust them to the mercy of God.

SV

[Outshined]

What folly to see Catholics and Latter-day Saints arguing over who is right. Many churches here in the South recognize neither as Christian.

Catholics do not recognize LDS authority, and Latter-day Saints recognize no Catholic authority, so this is just quibbling... If you're happy being a Catholic, good for you; I just do not follow your beliefs, as you do not follow mine. Get used to it.

[saemo]

I seriously doubt that this is the reason why you left the lds church. First Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. was repudiated by the lds leadership. Second, anyone who leaves because lay people said this or that is a sad case indeed. You know and I know that there must have been other reasons for you leaving. Oh by the way, if catholics were saying that mormons are not christians, would you have seen your RC friends differently? Because the leadership of the catholic church, including their TV station say just that.

And as I said before, the lds do not believe in the same hell as other faiths. Very few individuals go to hell. If you were lds, you would have known about the three kingdoms and you would have known about what happens upon death to those who have not heard the gospel. AM I right?

Sorry you left under such pretenses. But you were sadly mistaken in lds doctrine.

OK, you caught me. I murdered someone at age 12 and was in prison until last week, and I blame it all on the mormon church for teaching me that the Catholic church is the great and abominble whore of the world.

Just kidding.

This type of teaching is where my doubt and questioning began, and it just grew from there. So as I said, it was one reason for my leaving. I started doubting when I was 12 years old or so. And sure, now I can see that I was believing in the infallability of my teachers. But I was taught to believe that I should believe every word that I was ever taught by church leaders, without question. If you have children, do you think they question what your church leaders are telling them? Do you want them to? Aren't they taught, aren't you taught, to "obey the bretheren in all things"?

But more importantly, as an adult, how do you know when a prophet, who you believe speaks for God, is actually speaking for an infallible God, or speaking as a fallible human? When you hear stuff like the topic at hand, do you cringe in your heart and say to yourself, that is not God talking, that is a human talking? I was never taught that I could do that. I was taught, and believed, that church leaders are the authority in all things. Period. End of conversation.

The route of reasoning I took goes more like someone taught me something like the topic at hand, and I cringed in my heart. And since I had been taught that all church leaders are speaking for God, I believed that what they taught me is what God is. Eventually, I made the conclusion that God was one right and sorry *******. Sorry. I know that that is offensive to a believer, but that is what I felt, for a very long time. Years even. So you could say that I never stopped believing what I had been taught, only, I believed what I had been taught was absolutely horrible and I refused to have anything to do with it. I refused to believe in such a God as that.

As for my RC friends, we never talked about religion, ever. I never for one moment was exposed to any other church's teachings until I left and started studying on my own. I was very protected in that sense. I was born in Utah, raised in Utah, and only went outside of Utah on family vacations. All the while protected from anything that is not church approved. It wasn't until I started travelling on my own in my early 20's that I discovered that people believed in the Truth of their religion as much as any mormon does. I was taught that everything and anything that other churches taught was short of the Truth. So if I had heard anything like that, I would probably have been embarrassed that I was perceived that way, while at the same time wondering what it was that made them think that way. I wouldn't have perceived it as something that I should believe, as it wasn't coming from a church authority.

Now, as an adult outside of mormonism, hearing Catholics or Catholic leaders say that mormons are not Christian sent me studying on WHY they say it. And I see both sides. I know that mormons believe in Christ, and mormons think that that belief is what makes them Christian. It is all in definition, really. Mormons are defining "Christian" as someone who believes in Christ and his Atonement.

But it shouldn't be a surprise to a mormon that Catholics don't see mormons as Christian. To a Catholic, and any other Christian, to say "I am Christian" it implies some very specific theological beliefs. Beliefs that mormons do not hold. Beliefs that are required to become confirmed and receive the Holy Eucharist. Mormons believe things about God and Atonement that are heretical to Christians. Like it or not, you can't change that, unless you change some very fundamental teachings of the mormon church. To a Catholic/Christian, it is the lack of belief in very specific theology that define a mormon as not Christian.

In short, the Catholic church has defined what it means to be a Christian for centuries. Mormonism does not meet this definition, theologically speaking. But, Mormons aren't Catholic, and believe that the Catholic church has no right or authority to define what a "Christian" is. So Mormons are making a new definition, and are offended that the Catholic church does not accept that definition.

[Calm]

calmoriah,

So I assume your answer is ... Catholics who baptize little children in this world and reject the LDS gospel in spirit prison go into everlasting punishment.

So this question was indeed not to look for truth, but rather a chance to point fingers at LDS.

Me, I don't make that judgment at all. I leave ALL judgment up to the Lord. He alone knows exactly how he will apply his Justice and his Mercy.

[johnny]

calmoriah,

So this question was indeed not to look for truth, but rather a chance to point fingers at LDS.

It is not about pointing fingers, it is about trying to understand how you or the LDS Church interprete Bible passages such as Matt 25, Rev 20, and Rev 21.

Me, I don't make that judgment at all. I leave ALL judgment up to the Lord. He alone knows exactly how he will apply his Justice and his Mercy.

I also leave ALL judgment up to the Lord. I am not askingp for judgment ...

[Outshined]

It seems like a few here are trying awfully hard to be offended.

If you don't believe LDS teachings anyway, it shouldn't matter to you; you're just looking for an argument. If only that were something new...

[johnny]

Outshined,

It seems like a few here are trying awfully hard to be offended.

I find the words of Joseph Smith offensive ... he revealed that the traditional Christian churches are false and their creeds are an abomination.

[Outshined]

I find the words of Joseph Smith offensive ... he revealed that the traditional Christian churches are false and their creeds are an abomination.

No, God did. You don't believe LDS teachings anyway, so what difference could it make? Besides, there isn't much you can do about it.