Mormons And The Catholic Church

[galstone2003]

And as far as being married to a mormon women im married to a child of god !!

[St Veronica]

Veronica, you're still responding with anecdote over substance. Can't you come up with anything more substantial than, "While I was gossiping with the other cackling hens I heard some Mormon say...."?

And before you start telling the LDS what they need to do to get their house in order, concentrate on your own. You know, that whole "beam in your own eye" concept the Savior talked about?

Have you heard of bearing false witness? You accuse me of gossip when you have no knowledge of this being true...in fact it isn't.

If you would like to console yourself with the idea I listened to gossip so you can sit back and justify ignoring what people are hearing from LDS ...do so at your own risk, ignorance is bliss I hear.

I have had LDS (a man) tell me, personally, to my face, that the their Church views the CC as the whore. This was in the last two years.

SV

[selek]

Galstone, your post was garbled.

I don't have problems with Catholics, Baptists, Buddhists, Muslims, Democrats, Independents, or the English.

I DO have problems with the professionally aggrieved who follow Mormons around trying to tear down the faith of others.

Veronica and Blue aren't content with living their faith and letting their light so shine as to be an example. They must instead (like the hypocrite) proclaim their faith from the streetcorners to be heard of men and to tear down the sacred beleifs of others.

They are not interested in dialogue, but in contention- not in conversation but controversy. And like the money changers in the Temple they are interlopers who should be exposed and driven out.

To put it more bluntly: this is an LDS board for conversation and discussion. It is our living room, so to speak. They don't have the right to come here and "pee on the carpet" any more than they have the right to do so in my real home.

While I understand your point about meekness and patience, even the Savior took up a knotted rope and set things right.

[selek]

Have you heard of bearing false witness? You accuse me of gossip when you have no knowledge of this being true...in fact it isn't.

True- it was an exaggeration- but no less and no more false than your oft repeated claims about the LDS Church as a whole.

If you would like to console yourself with the idea I listened to gossip so you can sit back and justify ignoring what people are hearing from LDS ...do so at your own risk, ignorance is bliss I hear.

Then you must be the most blissful person I have yet encountered-and having traveled the world for a good part of my thirty-six years, that's quite an accolade.

I have had LDS (a man) tell me, personally, to my face, that the their Church views the CC as the whore. This was in the last two years.

SV

Back to my point, though- this is more anecdote. We have only your word that this ever took place.

Even if this story is true, and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't make either his statement nor your charge true.

Unless that man was Gordon B. Hinckley, he doesn't speak for the LDS Church. He was giving his opinion. Nothing more.

And while a little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf, one idiot in an LDS congregation doesn't ruin the whole Church anymore than one idiot calling herself a saint ruins the entire Catholic Church.

[St Veronica]

Galstone, your post was garbled.

I don't have problems with Catholics, Baptists, Buddhists, Muslims, Democrats, Independents, or the English.

I DO have problems with the professionally aggrieved who follow Mormons around trying to tear down the faith of others.

Veronica and Blue aren't content with living their faith and letting their light so shine as to be an example. They must instead (like the hypocrite) proclaim their faith from the streetcorners to be heard of men and to tear down the sacred beleifs of others.

They are not interested in dialogue, but in contention- not in conversation but controversy. And like the money changers in the Temple they are interlopers who should be exposed and driven out.

To put it more bluntly: this is an LDS board for conversation and discussion. It is our living room, so to speak. They don't have the right to come here and "pee on the carpet" any more than they have the right to do so in my real home.

While I understand your point about meekness and patience, even the Savior took up a knotted rope and set things right.

Let me educate you as to why I am here. I was minding my business on a CATHOLIC forum when one of your fellow FAIR posters (Pacman) came to that forum and REPEATEDLY challenged Catholics to come HERE and post....the only reason I did was due to the board war he tried to start (this can be verified by the moderators HERE)....to refute the accusations he made against the Catholic forum and posters there in a thread HERE.

This message board is not just for LDS discussion...as I understand it this particular forum is open to other faiths. If you have a problem with non-LDS being here then you need to take it up with the admin here and counsel your fellow LDS members to not keep inviting non-LDS over here.

Generally the only time I get involved in conversations here is when a Catholic issue is being discussed. Last I recall this thread does include a Catholic issue.

As far as knotted ropes go, he who is without sin can make the first lash.

SV

[blueadept]

It's amazing what one hears and picks out of a conversation. I will admit that I'm sensitive when it comes to the welfare of my daughters. I use to be a Girl Scout leader and I heard what other leaders thought about how the LDS have treated girls programs and realized they probably just had an axe to grind. It has been explained to me why most churches have a Boy Scout program but the Girl Scout program didn't quite fit with the church's needs. Anti's can have fun with that one, but for myself whatever but I'll keep an open mind about the matter.

So on to President Hinckley's talk,

"I call your attention to another matter that gives me great concern."

"Do you wish to marry a girl whose education has been far superior to your own?"

I more than realize I'm already sensitive to the matter of how other's view the LDS church in regards to women. When I heard the talk, this is what I heard of it.

For myself, I know he was addressing only the young priesthood. Since my wife has such a high regard for the prophet, there is no point in bringing up this issue I have.

I try to keep in perspective, but it sits in the back of my mind and someone like why me drops an innocent comment which sets me off. A definite weakness I need to work on.

So I apologize.

[St Veronica]

True- it was an exaggeration- but no less and no more false than your oft repeated claims about the LDS Church as a whole.

Then you must be the most blissful person I have yet encountered-and having traveled the world for a good part of my thirty-six years, that's quite an accolade.

Back to my point, though- this is more anecdote. We have only your word that this ever took place.

Even if this story is true, and I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, it doesn't make either his statement nor your charge true.

Unless that man was Gordon B. Hinckley, he doesn't speak for the LDS Church. He was giving his opinion. Nothing more.

And while a little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf, one idiot in an LDS congregation doesn't ruin the whole Church anymore than one idiot calling herself a saint ruins the entire Catholic Church.

Praytell what 'oft repeated claims' are you speaking of? I don't post here that often so I'll be glad to hear from you exactly what oft repeated claims I've made.

If you don't believe it that's your perogative. I know what I was told. I never said it was (currently) the official position of the LDS Church. My point was that there are still LDS members who put this belief as part of LDS beliefs. To deny this is folly on your part. Some are acting like this couldn't possible of happened.

Now you want to call me names because I disagree with you? Grow up.

By the way...if you believe one person can ruin the entire Catholic Church then to be logical you must hold the same belief to be true of the LDS Church. That puts you in a rather sticky situation.

SV

[selek]

Let me educate you as to why I am here. I was minding my business on a CATHOLIC forum when one of your fellow FAIR posters (Pacman) came to that forum and REPEATEDLY challenged Catholics to come HERE and post....the only reason I did was due to the board war he tried to start (this can be verified by the moderators HERE)....to refute the accusations he made against the Catholic forum and posters there in a thread HERE.

So in otherwords, one potential malcontent attempted to start a board war and you fell for it. Interesting.

This message board is not just for LDS discussion...as I understand it this particular forum is open to other faiths. If you have a problem with non-LDS being here then you need to take it up with the admin here and counsel your fellow LDS members to not keep inviting non-LDS over here.

The operative word, which you cannot seem to grasp, is discussion. Holding your breath, stomping your feet, and repeating, "But I heard it!" is not discussion. Your highly disputable and flatly unreliable anecdotes do not rise to the level of conversation unless and until you have something of substance with which to back them.

Generally the only time I get involved in conversations here is when a Catholic issue is being discussed. Last I recall this thread does include a Catholic issue.

As far as knotted ropes go, he who is without sin can make the first lash.

SV

It does indeed, yet you've added nothing of merit- merely slander, questionable anecdotes, and a certain dogged stubbornness in refusing to see anything beyond the end of your vitriol. You continue to take isolated examples and conflate them to the entire LDS Church despite ample to the contrary.

Essentially, this is an "asked and answered" issue. Your charges have been answered and dismissed as anecdotal. Have you anything of substance to offer besides a particularly tendentious dogmatism?

[galstone2003]

it seems to me there is to much bosting in all the denomination by some!!

[thesometimesaint]

Guidelines for all FAIRboards Forums:

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[selek]

It's amazing what one hears and picks out of a conversation. I will admit that I'm sensitive when it comes to the welfare of my daughters. I use to be a Girl Scout leader and I heard what other leaders thought about how the LDS have treated girls programs and realized they probably just had an axe to grind. It has been explained to me why most churches have a Boy Scout program but the Girl Scout program didn't quite fit with the church's needs. Anti's can have fun with that one, but for myself whatever but I'll keep an open mind about the matter.

So on to President Hinckley's talk,

"I call your attention to another matter that gives me great concern."

"Do you wish to marry a girl whose education has been far superior to your own?"

I more than realize I'm already sensitive to the matter of how other's view the LDS church in regards to women. When I heard the talk, this is what I heard of it.

For myself, I know he was addressing only the young priesthood. Since my wife has such a high regard for the prophet, there is no point in bringing up this issue I have.

I try to keep in perspective, but it sits in the back of my mind and someone like why me drops an innocent comment which sets me off. A definite weakness I need to work on.

So I apologize.

I also apologize Adept- I was undoubtedly a little harsh and eager to "shoot from the lip".

In reading President Hincley's statement, I think he was urging young men to rise to the challenge, not belittling the achievements of women. His comment on being equally yoked was significant, I think.

I cannot recall now where I saw it, but there was a study that (IIRC) showed that households where the women had a significantly higher education level (as opposed to a nearer parity) had significantly higher levels of marital discord and spousal (in this case, wifely) dissatisfaction.

It is also, I think a heavily cultural issue. Even after forty years of feminist social experimentation, men are still expected to be the providers, protectors, and the killers of spiders.

It is, of course, stereotypical, but the average man wants his wife to look up to or at least respect him. That, of course, becomes a lot harder if the woman is a significantly better earner or has a much more presitigious position. Even if the woman doesn't have a problem with it, there are considerable self-esteem issues involved (and we both know how fragile the male ego is ).

At worst, I suspect President Hinckley's comments were a bow to cultural realism. If you want a happy home, get off your butts and make something of yourselves. Be prepared to provide for your family, and develop your talents, lest you be considered an unprofitable servant.

I don't think any daughter of God is deserving of less than a dedicated, righteous, and reliable husband (assuming, of course, that she wants one and that the LDS concept of exaltation is correct- and I know you don't necessarily agree with the latter). I doubt that either of us would expect less for our girls....

[blueadept]

I appreciate your comments selek. Both of our church's have a persona that others don't believe women are held up as equals in the church. I always chuckle when our local priest regularly double checks his references on an issue with our RCIA director who happens to be a woman who seems to be really 'in tune' with the spirit. It seems scary at times.

I realize I need to focus on President Hinckley's 'equal yoke' part of his comment a bit more. As a Catholic I've grown accustomed to only listening to the Pope for moral and ethical concerns. So trying to figure out why education is being talked about by President Hinckley is perplexing for me in this regard. Again, it's how a Catholic is listening versus how a Mormon is listening to their respective leaders. Apples and Oranges in this case.

For my wife and I, we are pretty well equally yoked in each part of our life in raising our daughters. I'm just amazed at how we seem to approach every problem (or listen) from two polar opposite ways.

For my wife, I'm sure she would hear the same thing as you did from President Hinckley's talk. I'm just always amazed that I hear something different.

Peace

[Catholic Girl]

Blue, you're not alone in responding in how you initially did by that hearing/reading that speech. I reacted the same way. It seemed to me he was berating the young men for letting women beat them at something they're supposed to be better at. Like a coach yelling at his team for losing to a bunch of girls.

So of course for a non-member woman with a degree to hear/read that speech, it is deeply insulting and alarming in this day and age. Especially the one question in this speech that glaring stands alone.....

Do you wish to marry a girl whose education has been far superior to your own?

It almost seems President Hinckley is speaking TO BOTH men and women with this question. Basically "Men, do not marry a woman who has more education than you do." and "Women, do not plan on getting much education or you will risk not getting a husband."

[Del March]

People who want to be offended, will be offended.

I am a woman, and I have a degree, and yet I am not at all offended by President Hinckley's comment. His intent is glaringly obvious to me: prompt the young men into studying hard. It's about the young men, not about the young women. Especially since he said that during a PRIESTHOOD meeting.

Sheesh.

Del

[selek]

It almost seems President Hinckley is speaking TO BOTH men and women with this question. Basically "Men, do not marry a woman who has more education than you do." and "Women, do not plan on getting much education or you will risk not getting a husband."

Tour of the Professionally Aggreived '06

Catholic Girl, please demonstrate how a reasonable person goes from:

...rise up and discipline yourself to take advantage of educational opportunities.

to

"Women, do not plan on getting much education or you will risk not getting a husband."

Your permanently aggrieved victim status is beginning to wear thin.

No where did the prophet say "Men, do not marry a woman who has more education than you do." That is your bitterness-of-gall interpretation of it. He spoke of being equally yoked- I think for the reasons I outlined above.

Please, please, please, Catholic girl, take off the sackcloth and ashes and get a real life. Or at least pay attention to what words actually say, as opposed to what you want to hear.

[saemo]

And this is where the critical mind comes into play. Today's prophets seem to be on the ball. Certainly in regards to family life and in general, on the topic of life they seem to be right on target. What can one disagree with?

In terms of the prophet speaking and who he is speaking for, I think that one must put two and two together. But I have good news for you. It was also the same for Joseph's time. Some early saints just did not see JS as prophet material when he was just a man and acting like a frontier man among them. Let your own mind be the judge.

I don't know anything about Hinkley. He seems like a nice old dude.

I stopped thinking like that child long ago. And believe me, I have put two and two together a hundred times over.

[saemo]

In short you mean certain dogmas and dogmas can always be devisive if held with a human intent. Also there seems to be a lack of tolerance which is so unbecoming of a christian church, if what you said is true about catholicism and other faiths.

I find the lds much more tolerant of other faiths. And I have yet heard someone say, that some protestant group or the catholic church is not christian.

How to explain it?

Theologies is what I meant. Whenever humans have an "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality, there is intolerance. No one person or organization is immune from it.

[Outshined]

Does the Catholic practice of infant baptism qualify for the category of "evil abomination"?

As a Mormon, how do you apply the verses found in Moroni 8:

Do you believe that the Catholic practice of infant baptism is "pervert[ing] the ways of the Lord"?

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism like Catholics "are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment"?

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism like Catholics are "mocking God"?

Have a great day.

johnny

Yes.

[Son]

hi this is galstone im new here dont get cought up in that we are not to judge one another that is gods job!!

Since your new, i'll be gentle, I did not post what you quoted me as saying.

It takes a little time to figure the quote thing, I did the same thing when I first came on Fair.

son

[why me]

Theologies is what I meant. Whenever humans have an "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality, there is intolerance. No one person or organization is immune from it.

But as you probably know there are right answers out there. And it can still bring tolerance or intolerance. The problem starts when we actually believe that there are no right or wrong answers. With this kind of mentality sets in, we will have chaos.

[why me]

I don't know anything about Hinkley. He seems like a nice old dude.

I stopped thinking like that child long ago. And believe me, I have put two and two together a hundred times over.

I am sure that most GA's are nice. They have a tough job that is for sure. But as you know, no GA can stand up at the podium and say...'brothers and sisters, there are no right or wrong answers....just live life and be happy'. Such is not the bible. LDS GA's take a moral stand on what they believe to be true. And they back it up with scripture.

What to do?

[saemo]

But as you probably know there are right answers out there. And it can still bring tolerance or intolerance. The problem starts when we actually believe that there are no right or wrong answers. With this kind of mentality sets in, we will have chaos.

What I know is that "right" is subjective.

What problem starts?

Thinking and acting within a defined set of rules does reduce chaos, it doesn't eliminate it. However, rules that foster an environment of intolerance, encourage chaos itself.

[saemo]

I am sure that most GA's are nice. They have a tough job that is for sure. But as you know, no GA can stand up at the podium and say...'brothers and sisters, there are no right or wrong answers....just live life and be happy'. Such is not the bible. LDS GA's take a moral stand on what they believe to be true. And they back it up with scripture.

What to do?

Such is how it works for people who live by religious dogma.

Who's doing anything?

[why me]

What I know is that "right" is subjective.

What problem starts?

Thinking and acting within a defined set of rules does reduce chaos, it doesn't eliminate it. However, rules that foster an environment of intolerance, encourage chaos itself.

When ethics are discussed there is always a right and wrong. And it needs to be so. We can act ethically right or ethically wrong. There is quite often no middle ground. Of course in postmodernism there is no universal truth, just a hodgepodge of identities. Once we remove right and wrong from the human mind, what we have left is moral and ethical chaos. And perhaps this is now the state of many societies.

However, I do know that in postmoland, such thoughts are prevalent....there is no right or wrong, just the act of being in the world and we are all each responsible for our own behavior.

However, in the Catholic faith and in the lds faith, there are set principles that guide people in righeous living. There is a right and wrong way to act and to be in this world.

[GRW]

But as you probably know there are right answers out there. And it can still bring tolerance or intolerance. The problem starts when we actually believe that there are no right or wrong answers. With this kind of mentality sets in, we will have chaos.

I agree. But I also think problems arise when groups or individuals will not at least acknowledge the possibility that they are wrong about what those answers are.