Mormons And The Catholic Church

[johnny]

Outshined,

No, God did. If you don't like it, there isn't much you can do about it

That is what I said, I said "he revealed" ... I can do something about it, I can believe he was a false prophet.

[Outshined]

No, you said Joseph Smith revealed it. God revealed it to him; Big difference.

You can believe anything you want; personally I don't ascribe to Catholic theology. That's why there are different churches.

[johnny]

Outshined,

No, you said Joseph Smith revealed it. God revealed it to him; Big difference.

What does a prophet do ... he reveals what God revealed to him.

You can believe anything you want; personally I don't ascribe to Catholic theology.

And I don't ascribe to LDS theology.

[Outshined]

What does a prophet do ... he reveals what God revealed to him.

And he did just that.

And I don't ascribe to LDS theology.

The difference is that I don't follow Catholics around trying to argue about their religion...

[Olavarria]

Is it true that the Mormon church teaches that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon? If it is, why?

Also, if it is true, what about the other mainline branches of Christianity that are almost "Catholic lite" such as the Lutheran church and what not

I know some old school GA's have been accused of saying such.

I grew up lds and yet my parents enrolled me in catholic school all thru highschool. All in all, going to a catholic school was a very uplifting experience. If i dont end up living in the OC, my kids are definatly going to parochial school.

[urroner]

Should I start a new thread and tell Johnny all the different things of Catholic Church that offend me? Do you think that would be a productive and uplifting thread? I'm sure that I could go back into the history of the RCC, even recent history, and find all sorts of things the RCC has taught as doctrine and actions commited by high ranking members of the RCC and declare to one and all just how offensive these things are to me and even if people tried to explain how I'm misinterpreting the actions and the teachings, I will ignore them and continuing denouncing the vileness and just how offended I have become.

Would these actions make me a better person? Would it open up the gates of communications?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

[Outshined]

Should I start a new thread and tell Johnny all the different things of Catholic Church that offend me? Do you think that would be a productive and uplifting thread? I'm sure that I could go back into the history of the RCC, even recent history, and find all sorts of things the RCC has taught as doctrine and actions commited by high ranking members of the RCC and declare to one and all just how offensive these things are to me and even if people tried to explain how I'm misinterpreting the actions and the teachings, I will ignore them and continuing denouncing the vileness and just how offended I have become.

Would these actions make me a better person? Would it open up the gates of communications?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

Neither would creating a web site to point out all the things you feel are wrong about the Catholic church...heh heh.

[Pahoran]

Should I start a new thread and tell Johnny all the different things of Catholic Church that offend me? Do you think that would be a productive and uplifting thread? I'm sure that I could go back into the history of the RCC, even recent history, and find all sorts of things the RCC has taught as doctrine and actions commited by high ranking members of the RCC and declare to one and all just how offensive these things are to me and even if people tried to explain how I'm misinterpreting the actions and the teachings, I will ignore them and continuing denouncing the vileness and just how offended I have become.

Would these actions make me a better person? Would it open up the gates of communications?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

You're not.

Don't lower yourself to such tactics. Good people don't do such things; followers of Christ view them with the disdain and odium that they deserve. Let them remain utterly beneath you. Only those who have no real assurance that their beliefs are true feel the need to shore them up by manufacturing reasons to find fault with others.

This is not the same as either believing the words of the Lord, or performing the kind of scholarly investigation into the historical basis for revealed doctrine that produced The Great Apostasy, so don't let anyone deceive you into believing that it is.

Regards,

Pahoran

[J Green]

This post has quickly morphed beyond the original question (LDS correlation of RCC w/ GAC in 1 Ne 13) into a ping-pong match on infant baptism. Perhaps a separate thread on that specific issue would be more appropriate? In any case, a few observations:

1. Regardless of what some may have learned in their families or spelled out with Scrabble tiles (a la Sneakers), the official LDS doctrine does not equate the RCC with the GAC of 1 Ne 13.

2. The question of infant baptism seems to get hung up on the issue of those baptizing the infants being "thrust down to hell."

A. Johnny lays the blame on Elder McKonckie article in the Ensign. However, all he is doing here is quoting and summarizing Mormon's letter to his son found in Moroni 8. And he is not alone in quoting this scripture in the "official" magazine. So do Elders Packer ("Little Children") and Jensen ("Little Children and the Gospel").

B. If you read Moroni 8 as a 19th-century anti-Catholic fabrication, then there is some room for misgivings. The LDS, however should read it in context as a religious leader addressing instances of apostacy by members of his faith. As USU points out, the best candidate for being thrust down to hell would be LDS priesthood holders baptizing infants contrary to what they have been taught about the atonement as LDS. It is in THIS context that we should read Moroni 8. This is a group quickly sliding into apostacy and these changes are being made "among you" (as addressed to Moroni). Just as it is theologically and historically lazy for us as LDS to ASSUME that 1 Ne 13 talks about the Catholic Church, it is lazy for us to do the same in Moroni 8. It is talking about members of a church changing the covenants they have made with God in the context of that faith. Judging others based on a different context centuries later is not the best way to go.

Just my two cents.

[why me]

Should I start a new thread and tell Johnny all the different things of Catholic Church that offend me? Do you think that would be a productive and uplifting thread? I'm sure that I could go back into the history of the RCC, even recent history, and find all sorts of things the RCC has taught as doctrine and actions commited by high ranking members of the RCC and declare to one and all just how offensive these things are to me and even if people tried to explain how I'm misinterpreting the actions and the teachings, I will ignore them and continuing denouncing the vileness and just how offended I have become.

Would these actions make me a better person? Would it open up the gates of communications?

I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

Good point. This is why I cannot understand the reasoning of the catholics who are posting on this thread. They seem to be in attack mode. And there is no reason to exhibit such behavior, especially on the FAIR boards.

I do believe that the lds on this site have been very respectful to the catholic faith and yet, we have catholics here spiting out venom like a rabid dog. Hard to understand. Nor do they seem to be listening to what the lds posters are posting. Or maybe they are not reading the posts but just a high skim value to scan the lds posts.

But there is something definitely wrong with the catholic posters on this thread. They are filled with contention.

[why me]

Aren't they taught, aren't you taught, to "obey the bretheren in all things"?

This of course depends on the family. I think these days the situation is different. If I had the priesthood manual with me, I can point out the new logic. But it has nothing to do with blindly accepting everything that the brethren have said.

But in your situation, if this was the case, I can understand why the problem occured. I don't obey the brethern in all things but I do put what they say under a questioning process. And I do believe that this is the way to go. To question what was said at conference or in church can develop the mind to be active and healthy. However my critical understanding is different from criticising.

[why me]

But more importantly, as an adult, how do you know when a prophet, who you believe speaks for God, is actually speaking for an infallible God, or speaking as a fallible human? When you hear stuff like the topic at hand, do you cringe in your heart and say to yourself, that is not God talking, that is a human talking? I was never taught that I could do that. I was taught, and believed, that church leaders are the authority in all things. Period. End of conversation.

And this is where the critical mind comes into play. Today's prophets seem to be on the ball. Certainly in regards to family life and in general, on the topic of life they seem to be right on target. What can one disagree with?

In terms of the prophet speaking and who he is speaking for, I think that one must put two and two together. But I have good news for you. It was also the same for Joseph's time. Some early saints just did not see JS as prophet material when he was just a man and acting like a frontier man among them. Let your own mind be the judge.

[Outshined]

This post has quickly morphed beyond the original question (LDS correlation of RCC w/ GAC in 1 Ne 13) into a ping-pong match on infant baptism. Perhaps a separate thread on that specific issue would be more appropriate? In any case, a few observations:

1. Regardless of what some may have learned in their families or spelled out with Scrabble tiles (a la Sneakers), the official LDS doctrine does not equate the RCC with the GAC of 1 Ne 13.

2. The question of infant baptism seems to get hung up on the issue of those baptizing the infants being "thrust down to hell."

A. Johnny lays the blame on Elder McKonckie article in the Ensign. However, all he is doing here is quoting and summarizing Mormon's letter to his son found in Moroni 8. And he is not alone in quoting this scripture in the "official" magazine. So do Elders Packer ("Little Children") and Jensen ("Little Children and the Gospel").

B. If you read Moroni 8 as a 19th-century anti-Catholic fabrication, then there is some room for misgivings. The LDS, however should read it in context as a religious leader addressing instances of apostacy by members of his faith. As USU points out, the best candidate for being thrust down to hell would be LDS priesthood holders baptizing infants contrary to what they have been taught about the atonement as LDS. It is in THIS context that we should read Moroni 8. This is a group quickly sliding into apostacy and these changes are being made "among you" (as addressed to Moroni). Just as it is theologically and historically lazy for us as LDS to ASSUME that 1 Ne 13 talks about the Catholic Church, it is lazy for us to do the same in Moroni 8. It is talking about members of a church changing the covenants they have made with God in the context of that faith. Judging others based on a different context centuries later is not the best way to go.

Just my two cents.

Great post!

[why me]

But it shouldn't be a surprise to a mormon that Catholics don't see mormons as Christian. To a Catholic, and any other Christian, to say "I am Christian" it implies some very specific theological beliefs. Beliefs that mormons do not hold.

In short, the Catholic church has defined what it means to be a Christian for centuries.

In short you mean certain dogmas and dogmas can always be devisive if held with a human intent. Also there seems to be a lack of tolerance which is so unbecoming of a christian church, if what you said is true about catholicism and other faiths.

I find the lds much more tolerant of other faiths. And I have yet heard someone say, that some protestant group or the catholic church is not christian.

How to explain it?

[johnny]

J Green,

If you read Moroni 8 as a 19th-century anti-Catholic fabrication, then there is some room for misgivings.

Could you explain what you mean by misgivings ... In the 19th-century is infant baptism an "evil abomination"?

As USU points out, the best candidate for being thrust down to hell would be LDS priesthood holders baptizing infants contrary to what they have been taught about the atonement as LDS. It is in THIS context that we should read Moroni 8.

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism "are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment"? Moroni 8 says:

http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/8

Infant baptism is an evil abomination ... Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God ... Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. ... it is mockery before God ... they are denying the Holy Ghost ... they must perish soon

Just as it is theologically and historically lazy for us as LDS to ASSUME that 1 Ne 13 talks about the Catholic Church, it is lazy for us to do the same in Moroni 8.

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism are "perverting the ways of the Lord"? Moroni 8 says:

Infant baptism is an evil abomination ... Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God ... Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. ... it is mockery before God ... they are denying the Holy Ghost ... they must perish soon

It is talking about members of a church changing the covenants they have made with God in the context of that faith. Judging others based on a different context centuries later is not the best way to go.

What is the best way to go ... where did todays Mormon Church get it's teachings on infant baptism?

[Outshined]

Again, very good post, J Green, though some are here just to argue, so it will sadly fall on deaf ears.

where did todays Mormon Church get it's teachings on infant baptism?

From God.

[J Green]

J Green,

Could you explain what you mean by misgivings ... In the 19th-century is infant baptism an "evil abomination"?

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism "are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment"? Moroni 8 says:

http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/8

Infant baptism is an evil abomination ... Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God ... Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. ... it is mockery before God ... they are denying the Holy Ghost ... they must perish soon

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism are "perverting the ways of the Lord"? Moroni 8 says:

Infant baptism is an evil abomination ... Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God ... Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. ... it is mockery before God ... they are denying the Holy Ghost ... they must perish soon

What is the best way to go ... where did todays Mormon Church get it's teachings on infant baptism?

Johnny,

I'm not sure I feel the need to go over my post line by line, as the specific lines you parse out seem sufficiently clear to me. However, from the questions you ask, you may have missed the overall message of my post, so let me try to make that clearer:

As you alertly captured, the warning about baptizing infants comes from Moroni 8 and not from the Ensign (although many in the Ensign quote these verses). However, if you read this chapter, you will find that you have taken Mormon's warnings to his people about breaking/changing covenants they have made in the context of THAT faith (Mormon, Moroni and his people) and applied those warnings to those of another faith in a different day and age. For those who belong to the faith of this leader and made the covenants he speaks of, then I believe his warnings apply and are real (absent repentence, which he clarifies in his sermon). But to apply these warnings to those not of his faith is not overtly supported by the text. If you are not of the faith of Mormon and have not made the convenants he speaks of or believed in the atonement laid out in the way he and others of his faith presented it, then you don't qualify to be in the category he speaks of.

This should not be a new concept. Almost every prophet in the OT judged the children of Israel differently than they did the idolatrous nations around them because the COI had been instruced differently and had made different covenants with their God. (The first two chapters of Amos give you a good example of this.) I simply believe that those both in and out of the LDS Church who try to apply the verses in Moroni 8 to those of another faith who do not believe the same things and have not made the same covenants are exegetically lazy.

Have a great day.

J Green

[galstone2003]

Let's start with infant baptism; Mosiah 8

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the bremission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell,

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love dcasteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are like unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a

unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of arepentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;

I'm sorry, but this seems extremely convenient to me. Here we have a pratice by "them evil catholics" that was seen as abhorrant by many of the Protestants who became the first Mormons, but unfortunatly for them there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly says "DO NOT BAPTISE INFANTS" So along come Joseph with a lost scripture that says exactly that. Not only that but it also says that those who practice it practice a "mockery of God." Yup. Convenient. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't buy it.

No purchase necessary, its free

hi this is galstone im new here dont get cought up in that we are not to judge one another that is gods job!!

[johnny]

J Green,

But to apply these warnings to those not of his faith is not overtly supported by the text.

Does the Mormon Church share these warning as presented in Moroni 8 with those who are of another faith such as the Catholic faith?

If you are not of the faith of Mormon and have not made the convenants he speaks of or believed in the atonement laid out in the way he and others of his faith presented it, then you don't qualify to be in the category he speaks of.

Does the Catholic practice of infant baptism qualify for the category of "evil abomination"?

I simply believe that those both in and out of the LDS Church who try to apply the verses in Moroni 8 to those of another faith who do not believe the same things and have not made the same covenants are exegetically lazy.

As a Mormon, how do you apply the verses found in Moroni 8:

Do you believe that the Catholic practice of infant baptism is "pervert[ing] the ways of the Lord"?

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism like Catholics "are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment"?

Do you believe that those who practice infant baptism like Catholics are "mocking God"?

Have a great day.

johnny

[blueadept]

And this is where the critical mind comes into play. Today's prophets seem to be on the ball. Certainly in regards to family life and in general, on the topic of life they seem to be right on target. What can one disagree with?

If you want a reference, listen to President Hinckley's Conference talk given in the Priesthood Meeting about his 'grave concern' (an attention grabber for a Catholic) in regards to young men getting their diplomas. As a father of many daughters, I REALLY didn't care for the comment.

Right on target, huh. I guess that's a matter of opinion.

[galstone2003]

i often wonder what would jesus do??

[St Veronica]

If you want a reference, listen to President Hinckley's Conference talk given in the Priesthood Meeting about his 'grave concern' (an attention grabber for a Catholic) in regards to young men getting their diplomas. As a father of many daughters, I REALLY didn't care for the comment.

Right on target, huh. I guess that's a matter of opinion.

Blue I don't understand what you mean?

By the way, you aren't the only one who has heard LDS talk about the view of their Church on the Catholic Church. No matter if people here who are LDS deny it or are unfamiliar with it, it's still going on today. Perhaps it's time for a LDS bishop meeting so they can all get on the same page about this.

SV

[selek]

If you want a reference, listen to President Hinckley's Conference talk given in the Priesthood Meeting about his 'grave concern' (an attention grabber for a Catholic) in regards to young men getting their diplomas. As a father of many daughters, I REALLY didn't care for the comment.

Right on target, huh. I guess that's a matter of opinion.

Blue,

Given that you are openly critical of the LDS (despite being married to a Mormon woman), I really think that your post demonstrates that you are looking for an excuse to be offended. Here is the relevant portion of the talk:

I call your attention to another matter that gives me great concern. In revelation the Lord has mandated that this people get all the education they can. He has been very clear about this. But there is a troubling trend taking place. Elder Rolfe Kerr, Commissioner of Church Education, advises me that in the United States nearly 73 percent of young women graduate from high school, compared to 65 percent of young men. Young men are more likely to drop out of school than young women.

Approximately 61 percent of young men enroll in college immediately following high school, compared to 72 percent for young women.

In 1950, 70 percent of those enrolled in college were males, and 30 percent were females; by 2010 projections estimate 40 percent will be males, and 60 percent will be females.

Women have earned more bachelorâ??s degrees than men every year since 1982 and more masterâ??s degrees since 1986.

It is plainly evident from these statistics that young women are exceeding young men in pursuing educational programs. And so I say to you young men, rise up and discipline yourself to take advantage of educational opportunities. Do you wish to marry a girl whose education has been far superior to your own? We speak of being â??equally yoked.â? That applies, I think, to the matter of education.

In addition, your education will strengthen your service in the Church. A study was made some years ago that indicated the higher the education, the greater the faith and participation in religious activity.

There's nothing there to provoke a reasonable mind, nor give offense.

I'm with Brigham Young on this one: "A chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up."

And for the record, I have four daughters.

[selek]

By the way, you aren't the only one who has heard LDS talk about the view of their Church on the Catholic Church. No matter if people here who are LDS deny it or are unfamiliar with it, it's still going on today. Perhaps it's time for a LDS bishop meeting so they can all get on the same page about this.

SV

Veronica, you're still responding with anecdote over substance. Can't you come up with anything more substantial than, "While I was gossiping with the other cackling hens I heard some Mormon say...."?

And before you start telling the LDS what they need to do to get their house in order, concentrate on your own. You know, that whole "beam in your own eye" concept the Savior talked about?

[galstone2003]

Blue,

Given that you are openly critical of the LDS (despite being married to a Mormon woman), I really think that your post demonstrates that you are looking for an excuse to be offended. Here is the relevant portion of the talk:

There's nothing there to provoke a reasonable mind, nor give offense.

I'm with Brigham Young on this one: "A chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up."

And for the record, I have four daughters.well i would not say that from what ive revealed acording to the book of mormon strons we have two ways to look at the church and im not to past judge ment on any one !!