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Mormons And The Catholic Church


siegfried

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Is it true that the Mormon church teaches that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon? If it is, why?

Also, if it is true, what about the other mainline branches of Christianity that are almost "Catholic lite" such as the Lutheran church and what not.

Have you taken any time searching out what we really teach today? You did ask your question in present tense.

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siegfried,

Is it true that the Mormon church teaches that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon?

The Book of Mormon (1Nephi 13) reveals that the "great and abominable church ... perverts the right ways of the Lord".

If it is, why?

The Book of Mormon (Moroni 8 ) reveals that the Catholic practice of infant baptism is an evil abomination and those who believe such a false concept shall be thrust down to hell. Joseph Smith revealed that all Traditional Christian Churches like the Catholic Church are false and their Christian creeds are an abomination.

Also, if it is true, what about the other mainline branches of Christianity that are almost "Catholic lite" such as the Lutheran church and what not.

I suppose Mormons could consider the Lutheran Church part of "the great and abominable church" since Lutherns also pervert the ways of the Lord by practicing the evil abomination of baptizing infants like the Catholic Church.

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It was once taught as doctrinal.

Call for references. Show support by scriptures as well.

Since it was the Prophet who corrected the last wellknown LDS making this unfounded assumption, I have great doubts that it was ever doctrinal and was rather pure speculation as were the reasons for the ban on the priesthood, reasons for certain parts of the WoW and other things LDS are and have been fond of speculating about, even over the pulpit.

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It was once taught as doctrinal.

Call for references. Show support by scriptures as well.

Since it was the Prophet who corrected the last wellknown LDS making this unfounded assumption, I have great doubts that it was ever doctrinal and was rather pure speculation as were the reasons for the ban on the priesthood, reasons for certain parts of the WoW and other things LDS are and have been fond of speculating about, even over the pulpit.

It was never doctrine. It was hearsay and speculation.

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So Mormons concider infant baptism bad? Why? and whats wrong with creeds? The Nicean Creed is what cemented the Holy Christian Church back when and is what preserved it through al the years. Somthing I'm curious about, do Mormons ever say these things to other Catholics or Lutherans? I'm not religious, but most of my Dads family is still strong Lutheran and would have no end of bad to say about the Mormons if asked.

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So Mormons concider infant baptism bad? Why? and whats wrong with creeds? The Nicean Creed is what cemented the Holy Christian Church back when and is what preserved it through al the years. Somthing I'm curious about, do Mormons ever say these things to other Catholics or Lutherans? I'm not religious, but most of my Dads family is still strong Lutheran and would have no end of bad to say about the Mormons if asked.

Let's start with infant baptism; Mosiah 8

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the bremission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell,

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love dcasteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are like unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a

unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of arepentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;

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I recall some of the Protestant Reformers calling the Catholic church the Whore of Banylon also. I recall one statement that compared the Pope to the anti-Christ. Evangelicals call LDS non-Christian cultists. I wonder what Catholics call LDS people?

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So Mormons concider infant baptism bad? Why? and whats wrong with creeds? The Nicean Creed is what cemented the Holy Christian Church back when and is what preserved it through al the years. Somthing I'm curious about, do Mormons ever say these things to other Catholics or Lutherans? I'm not religious, but most of my Dads family is still strong Lutheran and would have no end of bad to say about the Mormons if asked.

Let's start with infant baptism; Mosiah 8

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the bremission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell,

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love dcasteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are like unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a

unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of arepentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;

I'm sorry, but this seems extremely convenient to me. Here we have a pratice by "them evil catholics" that was seen as abhorrant by many of the Protestants who became the first Mormons, but unfortunatly for them there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly says "DO NOT BAPTISE INFANTS" So along come Joseph with a lost scripture that says exactly that. Not only that but it also says that those who practice it practice a "mockery of God." Yup. Convenient. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't buy it.

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Mormon was shown our day and wrote the scriptures specifically to us. He was commanded to do so. Unless someone believes that God takes little care of His people, why would they think his sending scripture to correct wrongdoing is "too convenient" to be true? Are we to think the same thing about Jeremiah? It was too convenient that Jerusalem was struggling with issues that a prophet just happened to come around warning the people about? I guess the prophesy about them getting carried away captive to Babylon was also too convenient? And the Isaiah prophecy about Cyrus? Well, that was way too convenient, so we can just dismiss that completely. That's probably why the Essenes didn't accept Christ as the Messiah despite preparing for 200 years for his coming. They must have thought, "Hey, man, this is way too convenient. God doesn't work like this. He must be a fraud."

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So Mormons concider infant baptism bad? Why? and whats wrong with creeds? The Nicean Creed is what cemented the Holy Christian Church back when and is what preserved it through al the years. Somthing I'm curious about, do Mormons ever say these things to other Catholics or Lutherans? I'm not religious, but most of my Dads family is still strong Lutheran and would have no end of bad to say about the Mormons if asked.

Let's start with infant baptism; Mosiah 8

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the bremission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell,

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love dcasteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are like unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a

unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of arepentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;

I'm sorry, but this seems extremely convenient to me. Here we have a pratice by "them evil catholics" that was seen as abhorrant by many of the Protestants who became the first Mormons, but unfortunatly for them there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly says "DO NOT BAPTISE INFANTS" So along come Joseph with a lost scripture that says exactly that. Not only that but it also says that those who practice it practice a "mockery of God." Yup. Convenient. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't buy it.

No purchase necessary, its free

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I actually defended the Catholic church yesterday. A couple of friends were talking to each other about how they thought the Catholic church is a "cult," how Catholics pray to statues, and that they thought Catholics don't even believe in Jesus. I told them that Catholics do believe in Jesus, they're a Christian church (not a cult), and that we shouldn't put down other people's religions.

Don't know if I should have spoken up, but I'm sick and tired of people pointing fingers at each other.

(See? My sigpic is a Grouch for a reason!)

DH

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So Mormons concider infant baptism bad? Why? and whats wrong with creeds? The Nicean Creed is what cemented the Holy Christian Church back when and is what preserved it through al the years. Somthing I'm curious about, do Mormons ever say these things to other Catholics or Lutherans? I'm not religious, but most of my Dads family is still strong Lutheran and would have no end of bad to say about the Mormons if asked.

It's not the Catholic church, or any other church specifically, that's the "whore of Babylon," etc. It's anybody who fights against God's church, promotes wickedness, or encourages people to rebel against God. A person who's a Catholic (or a Lutheran, or whatever) and who is a decent person, honestly trying to serve God, that person is ok. We believe they still need to join our church, in order to receive the fulness of the gospel and receive the saving ordinances, but we recognize them as good people.

Infant baptism is bad for a couple of reasons. First, it doesn't make sense to baptize an infant because baptism is a covenant between a human being and God. An infant can't even say the word 'covenant,' let alone enter into one. So baptizing an infant makes no sense.

Second, baptism is for the remission of sins. We believe little children are innocent and free of sin. To baptize them implies that infants are guilty of something, which is an awful thing to imply. Little children don't understand God's laws and therefore ought not to be held responsible for them.

We're not saying that people who baptize infants are necessarily wicked (it may be that they just don't understand God's law, either), just that the practice of infant baptism is wrong (and once a person understands this, he ought to stop baptizing infants! :P).

DH

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It was once taught as doctrinal, but in modern days, we have decided that they were only voicing their opinion and that it can be deleted as doctrine.

Hardly. See the two articles listed here. Lots of answers to basic questions can be located there instead of asking (or wrongly asserting, Magical Alma) on the board.

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2 Ne. 10: 16

"Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God."

A loose interpretation is that once a person, a group or an organization begins to fight against Zion and are unrepentant they become the whore of the earth.

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Historically, the whore of babylon gets designated to whoever came before you basically. Since Catholicism came before everyone else, it's the one pegged that designation the most. Yes, like some Protestants, there have been folks in Mormonism who pegged catholicism with that tag too. Some attribute the earlier tagging inthe church to simply residual ideas brought in from members who were of some Protestant affiliation of some sort. Some feel that this residual thinking stayed in place for some members because it became a traditional way of looking at it.

At this point in time thought? Naw, it's not considered a kosher interpretation basically. By the 60's you were seeing leaders and Presidents who were correcting brethren who took such stances.

Basically, it's one take of many in terms of interpretations. Every church houses a variety of interpretations and theologies on any given passage, and this interpretation over the years has been one of several. And at this point, it's an interpretation that is pretty obscure. It definitely has a date on it's forehead, this interpretation.

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Is it true that the Mormon church teaches that the Catholic church is the whore of babylon? If it is, why?

Also, if it is true, what about the other mainline branches of Christianity that are almost "Catholic lite" such as the Lutheran church and what not.

Siegfried,

There is no LDS doctrinal link between the G&A Church in 1 Ne 13 and the Roman Catholic Church. Stephen Robinson has a good article on the subject found here. He says, in part:

More often, some have suggested that the Roman Catholic church might be the great and abominable church of Nephi 13. This is also untenable, primarily because Roman Catholicism as we know it did not yet exist when the crimes described by Nephi were being committed. In fact, the term Roman Catholic only makes sense after AD 1054 when it is used to distinguish the Western, Latin-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Rome from the Eastern, Greek-speaking Orthodox Church that followed the bishop of Constantinople.
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The Book of Mormon is not referring to Catholics here, but a practice that was common among ancient Indians.

"It has also been found that infant baptism was performed in Mesoamerica when the Spanish

arrived. â??Doubtless because of her permanent contact with the celestial spheres,â? notes Laurette

S

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I just attended a catholic retreat. It was a great spiritual experience. I did do a lot of praying to the Virgin Mary through the saying of the Rosary but I did not see any wholes of Babylon on the retreat. The catholic church is a spiritual oaisis in a temporal desert.

The people on this retreat were very god centered. I was very impressed with their commitment to holiness. Plus, the Priest was wonderful.

I agree that in the past the lds church members was speculating a great deal about the whore of babylon. In my day, communism was also batted around as the whore. I do not believe that neither the catholic church nor communism was the actually the whore of babylon. Communism is long gone but the whore of babylon still is out there. It is only a question of attempting to identify it through scripture.

Peace and love to all the catholics out there. Attend a retreat and get closer to god. :P

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Mormon was shown our day and wrote the scriptures specifically to us. He was commanded to do so. Unless someone believes that God takes little care of His people, why would they think his sending scripture to correct wrongdoing is "too convenient" to be true? Are we to think the same thing about Jeremiah? It was too convenient that Jerusalem was struggling with issues that a prophet just happened to come around warning the people about? I guess the prophesy about them getting carried away captive to Babylon was also too convenient? And the Isaiah prophecy about Cyrus? Well, that was way too convenient, so we can just dismiss that completely. That's probably why the Essenes didn't accept Christ as the Messiah despite preparing for 200 years for his coming. They must have thought, "Hey, man, this is way too convenient. God doesn't work like this. He must be a fraud."

Charles T. Russel

L. Ron Hubbard

Sun Myung Moon

All of these men also claim to be Prophets and Called of God and such, are we to believe them all as well? Of course not! For one thing it's not possible to believe all their claims, as I'm sure they contradict each other. So what are we therefore to do? Use the promptings of the Spirit and our own judgement yes? Well, you can do what you like with yours, but mine says THIS IS NOT CORRECT.

Could I be wrong? Of course I could. But seeing as I have nothing else to go by then what I see and what the Holy Spirit tells me, I'll just have to trust it. I can do no less.

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So Mormons concider infant baptism bad? Why? and whats wrong with creeds? The Nicean Creed is what cemented the Holy Christian Church back when and is what preserved it through al the years. Somthing I'm curious about, do Mormons ever say these things to other Catholics or Lutherans? I'm not religious, but most of my Dads family is still strong Lutheran and would have no end of bad to say about the Mormons if asked.

Let's start with infant baptism; Mosiah 8

10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little bchildren, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the bremission of sins.

12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither afaith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell,

15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love dcasteth out all fear.

17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are like unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is a

unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity.

19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing

23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

25 And the first fruits of arepentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth cremission of sins;

I'm sorry, but this seems extremely convenient to me. Here we have a pratice by "them evil catholics" that was seen as abhorrant by many of the Protestants who became the first Mormons, but unfortunatly for them there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly says "DO NOT BAPTISE INFANTS" So along come Joseph with a lost scripture that says exactly that. Not only that but it also says that those who practice it practice a "mockery of God." Yup. Convenient. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't buy it.

I don't believe that the Catholic church was the only organization on the face of the earth in the last 6000 years or more to come up with this idea. Sorry if I squelched your bubble of originality or uniqueness here.

This is a doctrine that was taught by others before the Catholic church. That it happened to be taught again by them is no coincidence I am sure as Christ was always, always, championing the children during His ministry. So who would Satan target when causing apostasy in the early church? What doctrines would he cause the men who followed him to corrupt?

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I don't believe that the Catholic church was the only organization on the face of the earth in the last 6000 years or more to come up with this idea. Sorry if I squelched your bubble of originality or uniqueness here.

This is a doctrine that was taught by others before the Catholic church. That it happened to be taught again by them is no coincidence I am sure as Christ was always, always, championing the children during His ministry. So who would Satan target when causing apostasy in the early church? What doctrines would he cause the men who followed him to corrupt?

Hammer, I could be wrong, but I do believe you've missed my point.

Let us work under the assumption- hypothetically- the the Book of Mormon is false, that Joseph Smith is not a prophet of God.

He does, however, want to start his own church- for whatever reason.

Now a church needs people. Converts, otherwise it's just Smith standing on a street corner.

Now then, how does Smith go about getting these converts? He does what any good salesman does, he gives people what they want.

People have been against Infant Baptism, but (to my knowledge anyway) there is no place in the Bible that says explicitly DO NOT DO THIS. Therefore, Smith gives the people what they want. And you have the verses that you quoted there.

-End Hypothetical-

Is this what really happened? Maybe, maybe not. Make your own judgements, however, you must allow me to do the same.

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