A proven prophecy from Joseph Smith, Jr.

[Uncle Dale]

The interpretation, given by Orson Pratt apparently with Smith's endorsement, followed: the government of the United States which had turned a deaf ear to the Saints' pleas for protection, attacked by Great Britain, would beg for Smith's aid in securing the western territories. After Pratt's interpretation, Smith stated the following, "I prophesy, in the Name of the Lord God that the commencement of bloodshed as preparatory to the coming of the son of man. will commence in South Carolina,

[cinepro]

To illustrate just how dubious this prophecy really is, let us imagine President Hinckley stands at the next conference and proclaims the following:

  Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the conflict of Israel with its neighbor, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;

And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

For behold, the Israel shall stand against that country near unto it, and those countries will call on other nations, even the nation of the United States, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

And it shall come to pass, after many days, the oppressed shall rise up against their oppressors, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.

And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations;

That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies.

Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.

The next week, you are teaching a class of 12 year olds, and they ask the following questions. Please let us know how you would respond:

- Who, exactly was President Hinckley referring to?

- What is the time frame for this? 1 year? 5 years? 50 years? 500 years?

- What did he mean by "end of all nations"?

You see, when understood as a prophecy of the future, it has almost no predictive power. The scope and timeframe is so ill-defined, it only becomes useful when 20/20 hindsight can be used to fill in some of the pieces, with an infinitely flexible timeframe used to explain the unfulfilled portions.

[Uncle Dale]

[includes UD insertion]

The next week, you are teaching a class of 12 year olds, and they ask the following questions. Please let us know how you would respond:

- Where is "stand ye in holy places, and be not moved"?

Well, my class of bright 12-year olds -- I hope you were all baptized 4 years ago,

when your minds reached adult status and you can "consent" or not, as your powers

of reasoning and discernment require!

When the Joseph the Seer (honor'd and blest be his ever great name) pronounced

these ultimately important words of God, whilst seated with his own dear family,

around their Christmas tree, in Kirtland Ohio, he was telling them that the time had

come for them to pack up and move with him to "Zion" in Missouri.

Of course we all know that moving across the country is a difficult and time-consuming

task, so Joseph the Seer (mingling with Gods, he now plans for his brethren) instructed

the Saints to relocate to Zion with deliberation -- not all at once. In the meanwhile,

they were to stand in the "holy places" of Kirtland, Hiram, and Zion -- for here the

Lord would protect them from the "wrath that was to come." Of course, eventually

they were all supposed to move to Jackson County, Missouri, before the coming of

the "great and terrible day of the Lord."

[a young hand is raised in the back of the classroom] "Excuse me, Brother Broadhurst,

did you just say that the Saints were protected in Hiram?"

Well, Johnny -- they were protected there just as much as they were in Zion,

were they not?

Now, for next week's lesson -- we will study about how Zion was moved out of her

place, so that we Saints could gather to the tops of the Rocky Mountains!

[same hand goes up again] "Did you say "the tops," Brother Broadhurst?...."

Uncle "and so it goes -- and so it goes" Dale

[Scott Lloyd]

It only takes ONE prophecy that DOES NOT "come to pass" to expose a false prophet.

Joseph Smith had many, many failed prophecies.

[Joseph Antley]

I e-mailed a respected Civil War scholar at LSU (I assume he's non-Mormon, but I didn't ask ) and here's what he had to say.

As for your questions, I don't think many people in 1840

thought about the possibility of a civil war, but by 1850 some did.  That

[south Carolina] seceded first surprised few; since the early 1830s SC had been the most radical state.

[Uncle Dale]

I e-mailed a respected Civil War scholar at LSU (I assume he's non-Mormon, but I didn't ask ) and here's what he had to say.

As for your questions, I don't think many people in 1840

thought about the possibility of a civil war, but by 1850 some did.  That

[south Carolina] seceded first surprised few; since the early 1830s SC had been the most radical state.

The originator of this thread has shown himself to be rather elusive on the subject

at hand. I only hope that by now he is ready to admit that there was at least SOME

connection between the timing of JS's Dec. 25th message, and national political events of that time.

Also, the people much-believing of a forthcoming tremendous war, were mostly those

who read their bibles, thinking that the events therein described were going to occur

in America, shortly. This millennial expectation seems to have begun to fade, after

the non-appearance of the Millerites' "Second Advent" in 1842-43.

So, it is no wonder that few Americans were expecting a great civil war, that would

spread around the world, during the post-1843 period. Even the Mormons had by then

given up the idea that they would shortly build the Jackson Co. Temple; redeem Zion;

see the "lost tribes" come down from the North Pole; convert all the Indians, and flee

to Independence, Missouri for the "end of ther world."

Probably it is only those of us, who come from familes who were part of the 1832-34

millenarian experience within Latter Day Saintism, who preserve memories of how

expectant and how frightened the Saints were at that time ---- when they were forced

out of Jackson County, and saw a vast, brilliant meteor shower that very night, they

thought that the "end times" were upon them. Today we look back with 20/20 vision

and see things differently.

Hopefully the originator of this thread now sees things a little differently as well.

Uncle Dale

[Joseph Antley]

Dr. Cooper (whom I quoted in my previous post and who I have a lot of respect for) seemed to break it down for me.

It was unlikely that the average person in Joseph Smith's day would have foreseen a civil war. However, it isn't impossible, especially considering the millenial attitude of the early Saints who would have looked forward to coming wars predicted by the Bible and Book of Mormon.

And if a war was expected, South Carolina would have been seen as the most obvious instigator.

So, though I believe the revelation was indeed from God, I will not argue that the idea of a civil war begun by the succession of South Carolina was inconceivable to Joseph Smith, or any other religious leaders of his day who looked forward to the millenium.

[Uncle Dale]

Dr. Cooper (whom I quoted in my previous post and who I have a lot of respect for) seemed to break it down for me.

It was unlikely that the average person in Joseph Smith's day would have foreseen a civil war. However, it isn't impossible, especially considering the millenial attitude of the early Saints who would have looked forward to coming wars predicted by the Bible and Book of Mormon.

And if a war was expected, South Carolina would have been seen as the most obvious instigator.

So, though I believe the revelation was indeed from God, I will not argue that the idea of a civil war begun by the succession of South Carolina was inconceivable to Joseph Smith, or any other religious leaders of his day who looked forward to the millenium.

This sounds like the most practical approach, for the faithful LDS to take in this

instance. I would suppose that many ephiphanies are triggered by the subject being

impacted by seemingly overwhelming events occuring all around him.

Attempts to match the 1832 text precisely to the events of the 1860s, or later, seem

to open up a very large can of worms, however. The text is not much discussed among

the RLDS, but I did previously mention Elder Richard P. Howard's 1969 article on the

topic --- it was either in that article, or in a similar one, that I read the interpretation,

that the "remnant" spoken of in Smith's text, were the Souix Indians who attacked the

troops of General Custer. Such forced interpretations just make the Saints look silly

(IMHO).

There is also the problem, of exactly what oral or written message comes as a result

of the ephiphany ---- according to William Clayton's recollections, JS said that he

heard a supernatural voice, telling him at least part of the oracle. Is such a human

experience (even if it is an act of Providence) a perfect one? Do all the words that

come, as a result, convey the totality of the divine encounter? Do sentences get set

down, "out of order," or as incomplete thoughts --- or, as in the case of Deseret News

Editor Alfred Carrington's re-creation of JS's 1843 conversation on this topic, -- might

the final text of the "revelation" be altered or even misused, prior to publication?

I think that all of these factors must be pondered, when we look at samples of

"predictive prophecy;" and especially so, when the intended audience and intended

effects upon that audience, are not made clear in the text itself.

Perhaps we've analyzed this D&C section about as far as it can be investigated. The

non-Mormons will doubtless continue to see little of use in it; while faithful LDS will

see it more as a vindication of JS's religious calling, than as clear instruction about

what they are to do today, in their corperate and individual lives, in order to make

proper use of its "predictions."

Uncle Dale

[Irreantum]

I'd say the United States could have another Civil war (just a thought). A huge percentage of the economy in California is run by hispanics and if I am correct, they are not too happy with the US government right now. If California were to split off from the United States they would be the 5th most powerful country in the world, not counting they would probably hook up with Mexico, some other western states, and perhaps maybe all the parts of the land that the Lamanites inherit would recieve their promise. I'd say its always been a good chance of a Civil war, even now, cool to see that Joseph could pull off (through prophecy) when one would be though.

[Uncle Dale]

I'd say the United States could have another Civil war (just a thought). A huge percentage of the economy in California is run by hispanics and if I am correct, they are not too happy with the US government right now. If California were to split off from the United States they would be the 5th most powerful country in the world, not counting they would probably hook up with Mexico, some other western states, and perhaps maybe all the parts of the land that the Lamanites inherit would recieve their promise. I'd say its always been a good chance of a Civil war, even now, cool to see that Joseph could pull off (through prophecy) when one would be though.

Most of the land west of the drainage of the Mississippi was their land to begin

with, so there is something of an irony that their people are now beginning to

occupy more and more of the region between Colorado and California; and between

Texas and southern Oregon.

The day may come when national borders mean much less than "economic states;"

that is, groups of people bound together by a common interest in prosperity. A "war"

within the United States of the future may look very little like past wars. It could

well be a conflict between the rich and the poor, (whether those rich reside in Mexico,

or in the US West, or in the US East).

Luckily, I live in Hawaii and we here may not ever see much of an impact -- unless

our fuel supplies somehow get cut off.

Will the Mormons one day flock to Independence, Missouri, and there find safety from

the "last great battle" of the "end-times?"

I doubt it -- I doubt it very much.

UD

[Cowboy Ray]

Military historians will tell you that the war should never have started there, that it was "almost accidental," and "nobody could have guessed," because SC just wasn't important enough (even in 1860) to bring the entire South to the battlefield.

[journeyman]

John Adams at the same time,

[journeyman]

As far as I can tell from George's words his vision did come to pass and many years before it happened.

Was George Washington a prophet?

[Uncle Dale]

As far as I can tell from George's words his vision did come to pass and many years before it happened.

Was George Washington a prophet?

Prophets are more than future-tellers.

Persons who do nothing more than predict the future (even if accurately)

are not prophets in the biblical sense -- nor as commonly understood in the

Ancient Near East.

A fellow once wrote a novel about a great ship called the "Titan" that sank in the

North Atlantic -- the story was written long before the actual sinking of the Titanic.

That is truly remarkable -- but I would not look to that particular writer for my faith.

UD

[why me]

I am just a humble servant but please allow me to put my two cents in.

I have to say that no matter how easy it could have been to make such a prediction at that time (as or wonderful critics have now claimed), I must confess admiration to the man, Joseph Smith, who made it. You see, ladies and gentlemen, this farmer, who was the son of a farmer, who had very little education, made a wonderful educated forecast about what was to come about in just 30 years time.

Now if the Union and the South would have listened to this uneducated 'gold bible writer', the USA could have been spared a bloody conflict that caused the lives of many Americans. But alas, no one was listening to this dirt poor uneducated farmboy from NY state.

Again, I must take my hat off to this man called Joseph Smith but I will leave my helmet on.

[why me]

As far as I can tell from George's words his vision did come to pass and many years before it happened.

Was George Washington a prophet?

No, but he was educated and as some Americans would claim, he was guided by God as was the founding fathers that founded the USA. Do you disagree?

[USU78]

Most of the land west of the drainage of the Mississippi was their land to begin with, so there is something of an irony that their people are now beginning to occupy more and more of the region between Colorado and California; and between Texas and southern Oregon.

There is very little, if any, evidence that the Maya speakers of Mexico and Central America and their kin ever had an ancestor that spent much time in the Great Basin or the Great Plains.

The Uto-Aztecan speakers, however, are another story . . . the heretics (according to the Hopi, Utes, Paiutes and Shoshoni) did indeed travel down to Mexico and displace the native inhabitants, such that any beholding the events would see the wrath of G-d, that it was upon the old settlers; and they were scattered before the Aztecs and were smitten.

I get it, as far as Aztecs are concerned, that they might claim some kind of right of return. Not so the Maya. So why should an ethnic Maya have any more right to reclaim Marmalade Hill than an ethnic Celt from Glamorganshire?

USU "Quaere: Is it Maya or conquering Aztecs making the most noise?" 78

[Uncle Dale]

USU "Quaere:  Is it Maya or conquering Aztecs making the most noise?" 78

I take it that you are not a big fan of Zorro, nor of the Cisco Kid.

Nevertheless, I think it can be well demonstrated that the first Taco Bell was set up

in Nibley Ward, long before there was ever a Pizza Hut.

Vaya con Dios, mi amigo...

Uncle "Spider Woman taught the Dineh Twins how to survive, in journeying from the 3rd world to the 4th" Dale

[Zakuska]

John Adams at the same time,

[Uncle Dale]

All hale George...

"W" that is --- I heard on CBN that he is one of the personages spoken of near the

end of the Book of the Revelation of St. John!! The world ends on August 22nd!!!!!

Uncle "but they did not tell me just which apocalyptic figure that was -- a great prophet, I expect" Dale

[William Schryver]

UD:

The world ends on August 22nd!!!!!

And I feel fine.

[veritasvocat]

If newspapers contemporary newspapers were saying that there was possibility of civil war, it does not matter that they were using hyperbole; they still state the threat of civil war. Therefore you cannot claim that no one could have guessed that a civil war was possible. Period.

Combine this with a common tendency towards apocalyptic sentiments, and claims of immenant chaos and destruction: then it comes as no surprise that Joseph could take a local issue, and blow it up into something that would supposedly cover the whole world.

The :no one would have guessed" argument is thus refuted.

I'm in Moab for the weekend, but amazingly they have wireless available nearby, so I can make a connection.

Anyway, in light of some of the posts on this thread, I want to clarify and reiterate my stance.

Despite the hyperbole of some contemporary newspaper editors, there was no real threat of "civil war" in 1832 as a result of the Nullification Crisis. I will consent that there was a threat of a localized civil uprising in South Carolina. However, as I have noted previously, South Carolina was alone in her attempt to nullify the federal tariff.