Mormon Prophet John Taylor's view on Polygamy

[Pokatator]

Mr. Krakauer, who could not be bothered to walk a few hundred feet to rescue his fellow climbers, has little room to criticize anybody else for a lack of courage.

CJ

I find your criticism of Krakauer a distraction from the issue similar to criticisms of Joseph Smith, such as, JS was money digger in the past so......or some other questionable childhood activity of his, so......he can't be a prophet, etc.

Krakauer's Banner book and his book Into Thin Air are apples and oranges for subject matter. Personally I was totally surprised at his choice of subject matter, the Banner book was so far off subject from his other writings. Into the Woods was not about climbing but closer to subject on his climbing books. As to judging the man's courage on Everest and comparing it somehow to the Banner book subject matter seems to me to be ingenious to the issue. Let the Banner book stand on its own merits, there is plenty to discuss there.

As to his courage, I wasn't there and I'm fairly sure you weren't either, so for me I am not going to question his courage so freely.

[Stormin' Mormon]

No, because Daniel actually defied the government (humbly I might add) while Taylor vehemently claimed he would defy the government and that polygamy would not be abolished in his lifetime, neither of which took place.

uhhhm. Actually, polygamy was not abolished in John Taylor's lifetime. Let's keep our facts straight, please.

[Neo]

No, because Daniel actually defied the government (humbly I might add) while Taylor vehemently claimed he would defy the government and that polygamy would not be abolished in his lifetime, neither of which took place.

uhhhm. Actually, polygamy was not abolished in John Taylor's lifetime. Let's keep our facts straight, please.

You're right, my mistake. Nonetheless, it was abolished not long after he died which does not look good in light of his words that the "United States cannot abolish it. No nation on the earth can prevent it, nor all the nations of the earth combined..."

Neo

[Zakuska]

Not really... Did he preface that with a... "Thus sayeth the Lord"?

Nathan Said David could build the Temple of God and we all know it was Actually Solomon who did it (2 sam 7). So now are you going to start sneering at Nathan?

Thought not beings how he's in the Bible.

[Neo]

Not really... Did he preface that with a... "Thus sayeth the Lord"?

Nathan Said David could build the Temple of God and we all know it was Actually Solomon who did it (2 sam 7). So now are you going to start sneering at Nathan?

Thought not beings how he's in the Bible.

Actually, your continual references to the Bible are nothing but a diversion from the real issue, which is the deception and inconsistency of Mormon leaders.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Seems to me the inconsistance is in the leaders of the Bible with your preconcieved notions of what a Prophet is.

[Neo]

Seems to me the inconsistance is in the leaders of the Bible with your preconcieved notions of what a Prophet is.

You're the one who started quoting the Bible to try and justify Mormon leaders.

Neo

[Zakuska]

And you're the one who is Judging without using a balanced scale.

The Bible says Cold blooded murder was Jusufued and eleated of by God no less.

[why me]

Neo is not interested in debate. But this poster is interested in giving one liners to justify his or her own belief system. The clue to all of the poster's posts was in the reference to the 'Mormon God'. This was a dead givaway as to why this poster is posting his or her one liners. To discuss with poster is a complete waste of time since this poster is not interested in dialogue but rather in one liner challenges. Neo needs to be more engaging in his or her posts. He or she needs to discuss and not just blow off all lds posters.

But for those who want to continue the jost, be my guest....may the one with the longest pole win!

[KevinG]

The Principle was never revoked, the practice of it was suspended in ways that were in accordance with the law of the land (no multiple sealings for the living).

The doctrine is still on the books, and believed by many faithful Latter-day Saints.

Although even if the U.S. were to repeal the ban on polygamy I doubt we as a people much less the world are ready to live it correctly (we have a bad enough time living monogamy with honor).

The reason the Principle was suspended due to pressure under the law was this:

Doctrine and Covenants 124:49 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.

50 And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.

Your harping on a single quote about Polygamy does not demonstrate that you know much about the Principle, it's practice, who was called to do it, how the call was given, when and why it was given, or why the practice was suspended. I find that even among the Saints there are those who are manifestly ignorant of the doctrines, practice and issues involved. It is likely those who are mostly ignorant are the only ones who will be moved by a one note sermon on the topic.

[Beowulf]

To pile it on even thicker...

John Taylor's insistence that it would never be taken from the Earth can easily be construed to mean the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage, which is performed to this day in LDS temples. Ergo, he is not a false prophet.

But of course, Neo really wants to use this forum to talk long and loud about deceivers, arrogance, and boastfulness. None of which is descriptive of a Mormon prophet. They were all humble men who served their God as best they were able. Name-calling will get you nowhere but the queue.

Moderators??

Beowulf

[Zakuska]

But for those who want to continue the jost, be my guest....may the one with the longest pole win!

Dark Helmet: I see your schwartz is longer than mine.

-Space Balls

Ah the good ol days.

[Moksha]

I can confidently state that this remains the guiding principle of the Church to this day.  And you will find that 90+% of faithful LDS will continue to "follow the Prophet" regardless of how ludicrous or "prevaricating" his revelations appear to the outside world.  We're funny that way.

So, are you satisfied now?

Are you saying Woodruff wasn't actually being deceptive but only "appeared that way to the outside world?"

Neo

The question is absurd, had anything been wrong we certainly would have heard* via a well crafted paper on the FAIR website that had been carefully correlated during a Peer-Review and Donuts session.

* with apologies to W.H. Auden and his Tomb of the Unknown Citizen.

[katherine the great]

Its never been against church policy (to my knowledge) to Baptize Polygamists outside the US.

This is where you are wrong Zak. It IS against church policy to baptize polygamists even in countries where polygamy is completely legal and customary. I see it as a huge irony. I've been impressed with the way some protestant churches handle the problem by allowing the man to stay married to all wives, but is forbidden to marry any more wives after baptism. I think that is a very practical policy.

[katherine the great]

"We believe in honesty, morality, and purity; but when they enact tyrannical laws, forbidding us the free exercise of our religion, we cannot submit. God is greater than the United States, and when the Government conflicts with heaven, we will be ranged under the banner of heaven and against the Government...Polygamy is a divine institution. It has been banded down direct from God. The United States cannot abolish it. No nation on the earth can prevent it, nor all the nations of the earth combined...I defy the United States; I will obey God." - John Taylor (on January 4, 1880), president, prophet, seer, and revelator, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

I am curious about this quote which I originally read in John Krakauer's book, Under the Banner of Heaven. I thought Mormons believed in obeying the laws of the land?

Neo

I've always felt that plural marriage was a false principal of our church. Still, I feel that most of the people who practiced it did so in good faith and out of obedience. I think John Taylor said what he said because he was a staunch believer in the principal, not because he was a false prophet. I suspect he was simply saying what he had heard his predecessor say. I don't think that women demonstrating in favor of it means that they actually were. I've come to believe that most Mormon women at that time would have much preferred not sharing their husband with other women but they did "their duty" as was expected of them. If they were faithful church members then OF COURSE they publicly supported it. To do otherwise would be to denegrate themselves and deem their own children illegitimate. Most women would not do that.

[Moksha]

I've always felt that plural marriage was a false principal of our church. Still, I feel that most of the people who practiced it did so in good faith and out of obedience. I think John Taylor said what he said because he was a staunch believer in the principal, not because he was a false prophet. I suspect he was simply saying what he had heard his predecessor say. I don't think that women demonstrating in favor of it means that they actually were. I've come to believe that most Mormon women at that time would have much preferred not sharing their husband with other women but they did "their duty" as was expected of them. If they were faithful church members then OF COURSE they publicly supported it. To do otherwise would be to denigrate themselves and deem their own children illegitimate. Most women would not do that.

That makes perfect sense. It is also another example of the confusion that results from a Prophet uttering personal thoughts and people mistaking them for the word or God. Prophets have their moments of prophesy, but those are moments.

[Neo]

They were all humble men who served their God as best they were able.

The following statement from Joseph Smith is anything but humble:

"I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam...Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet" (History of the Church, vol. 6, p.408-409).

[Zakuska]

If only the quote was from Joseph Smith. Second third hand accounts.

There was quite a lengthy thread on that quote just a week ago.

Perhaps if you put it in Context you might understand it.

[Neo]

If only the quote was from Joseph Smith. Second third hand accounts.

Actually, that was from a speech he gave that is in The History of the Church, a publication approved of by the Mormon church. I have cited the reference.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Actually that particular... "speach" (ie section of the History of the church)was 3 discourses he gave over a period of a few months and it was thrown together in a conglomeration after his death under diress and mob action.

Like I said... You need to put the quote in context. Joseph Is boasting as a fool as Paul did. He had just finished reading one of Pauls discourses where Paul was boasting as a fool... something your Anit-Mormon web site won't tell you.

[Neo]

Actually that particular... "speach" (ie section of the History of the church)was 3 discourses he gave over a period of a few months and it was thrown together in a conglomeration after his death under diress and mob action.

Like I said... You need to put the quote in context.  Joseph Is boasting as a fool as Paul did. He had just finished reading one of Pauls discourses where Paul was boasting as a fool...  something your Anit-Mormon web site won't tell you.

I suppose you consider the following a second hand source too:

"If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.350-352).

Neo

P.S. It is clear that he is putting himself above Jesus in the other quote.

[Zakuska]

Here is the relevant Fair information on your first quote:

The Proud Joseph

I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I.123

Paul H. Peterson wrote,

Of all the editorial alterations in History, perhaps the most serious one, especially with regard to trying to understand the Prophet's personality, was the decision, apparently approved at the beginning of the project by Joseph himself, to convert third-person accounts written by other people to first-person accounts as if Joseph himself were writing. Among the end results, as Bitton and Arrington have pointed out, is a 'certain distortion of the Prophet's personality.' The Prophet, on occasion, comes off as being confident to the point of arrogance; by appearing to rely on his own merits rather than upon the Lord, he seems less the ultimate religious figure than he in reality was.124

It is in this sense that Joseph comes across in the historical entry as arrogant. It may be that these were not even Joseph's exact words, but assuming they were, this statement was made shortly before Joseph's martyrdom in 1844 in an address given as his testimony against the dissenters at Nauvoo. The record reads:

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. 2 Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted...God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people.125

Joseph's amplified "boasting," as noted in the record, is patterned after Paul's similar and somewhat sarcastic "boasting" words in 2 Corinthians 11. It should be considered that his audience was a body of hostile dissenters that were spreading false rumors about him. His tone was likely that of frustrated rebuke for their treatment of him. Joseph certainly made no pattern of this type of speech nor was he excessive in any assertion of pride. He in no way puts himself above Christ and there is not one Latter-day Saint who would ever suggest that.

If one is still troubled by Joseph's words, consider that Jesus himself proclaimed that what Joseph is claiming is attainable when he said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."126

McKeever and Johnson go on to question if Joseph was sufficiently humble to go to heaven because of this speech. While McKeever and Johnson incorrectly take Joseph's words in a most literal and actual sense, this instance of speech certainly does not override his humility. Continuously acknowledging a dependence on God is one example of Joseph's humility. Indeed, the very reason the Church exists is because Joseph offered a humble prayer seeking direction for which church was right. There are no examples of a destructive pride that might counteract humility. Turning to the words and witness of those who knew him during his time we find this to be true.

Truman G. Madsen wrote of Eliza R. Snow, who babysat and helped in the Prophet's home, saying that "she first admired him in his public ministry, saw him as a prophet, but not until she saw him in his own home, on his knees in prayer, and in his relationship with his children did her whole heart go out to him in admiration. 'He was,' she said, 'as humble as a little child.'"127

David Whitmer illustrated the importance of Joseph's "humility and faithfulness" while he was working on the translation of the Book of Mormon:

He was a religious and straightforward man. He had to be; for he was illiterate and he could do nothing himself. He had to trust in God. He could not translate unless he was humble and possessed the right feelings towards everyone. To illustrate so you can see: One morning when he was getting ready to continue the translation, something went wrong about the house and he was put out about it. Something that Emma, his wife, had done. Oliver and I went upstairs and Joseph came up soon after to continue the translation but he could not do anything. He could not translate a single syllable. He went downstairs, out into the orchard, and made supplication to the Lord; was gone about an hour--came back to the house, and asked Emma's forgiveness and then came upstairs where we were and then the translation went on all right. He could do nothing save he was humble and faithful.128

http://www.fairlds.org/Mormonism_201/m20117b.html

Joseph isn't "putting himself above Jesus. He is Sarcatically defiying a Mob.

So now you're turning to crufiy him for being sarcastic?

"If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.350-352).

Again... uneducated Mobbers. his 3rd Grade education was more than they had.

[Zakuska]

here Get your context straight before you have to wipe any more egg off your face.

http://scriptures.lds.org/2_cor/11

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. 2 Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted...God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people.125

Did not every single one of Christs Followers except the 12 run away from him when he taught them of Ritualized Canibalism?

John 6

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

...

66

[Neo]

"Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" was first published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 1938. Taken from his sermons and writings as they are found in the Documentary History and other publications of the Church and written or published in the days of the Prophet's ministry. Selected and arranged by the Historian, Joseph Fielding Smith, and his Assistants in the Historian's Office of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Neo

Does that mean JFS was an uneducated mobster?

[Neo]

here Get your context straight before you have to wipe any more egg off your face.

http://scriptures.lds.org/2_cor/11

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. 2 Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted...God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people.125

Did not every single one of Christs Followers except the 12 run away from him when he taught them of Ritualized Canibalism?

John 6

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

...

66