Mormon Prophet John Taylor's view on Polygamy

[Neo]

I can confidently state that this remains the guiding principle of the Church to this day.

[Neo]

PS. Technically they where "white lies" becuase in Abrahams case he really was married to his half-sister. (Sister of another mother)

Of course, white lies are totally acceptable. You're absolutely right, my moral standards are way too rigid. From now on, I'll just quote the Bible along with various Mormon leaders whenever I want to justify being deceptive.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Eccl 3

1 TO every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

I would submit that there is a time to be prudent and there is even a time to stand in defiance of local Law.

Did it phase Daniel when the courts made an unjust law that did not allow him the free practice of his religion and then ended him up in the Lions den? WHAT?!

A prophet of God disobeying the laws of the land...

[William Schryver]

Neo:

Did I misquote you?

Nope. You partially quoted me when I quoted Joseph Smith, so I'll quote the essential part again, just for your benefit.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. ... This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted -- by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.

Seems pretty clear to me. And yes, I understand how it might offend the virtuous sensibilities of sectarian Christianity and over-righteous mortals -- but ... oh well. God is funny that way. He gets to decide what is right and what is wrong under every circumstance.

[Zakuska]

Thank you Provis.

Thou shall not Kill.

vs

There is a time to Kill.

[Neo]

Eccl 3

1 TO every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

I would submit that there is a time to be prudent and there is even a time to stand in defiance of local Law.

Did it phase Daniel when the courts made an unjust law that did not allow him the free practice of his religion and then ended him up in the Lions den?

Daniel was consistent. He had strong convictions and stuck to them which God honored. It would have been a pretty lame story if God suddenly revealed that he should go ahead and submit to Babylon after making an elaborate speech saying he would defy them and obey God. Then there would have been no lion's den and no furnace to be saved from.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Are not the marriage laws in this country on the virge of being reformed? With Gay marriage... Polygamy will come shortly. Its never been against church policy (to my knowledge) to Baptize Polygamists outside the US.

Also... Yes Daniel did stick to his guns. But it was only him involved. It wasnt like Babylon threw all Israel in the Lions den.

The entire church was in the Lions den in this case.

[Neo]

I am unconvinced that John Taylor or any Mormon leader for that matter was or is a prophet of God. The evidence is overwhelmingly not in their favor.

Neo

[Familyof4]

As things stand now, there are many members of the church who would resist a restoration of polygamy even more than the United States would. Too bad for them.

Yup, and my family and extended family (over 100) would leave in a heart beat. This woud mean the end of the Mormon Church that I am sure of.

[Neo]

Neo:

Did I misquote you?

Nope. You partially quoted me when I quoted Joseph Smith, so I'll quote the essential part again, just for your benefit.

That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another. ... This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted -- by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.

Seems pretty clear to me. And yes, I understand how it might offend the virtuous sensibilities of sectarian Christianity and over-righteous mortals -- but ... oh well. God is funny that way. He gets to decide what is right and what is wrong under every circumstance.

Once again, it is very convenient (and equally unconvincing) when someone uses a clause like "God gets to decide what is right and wrong in every circumstance." You can pretty much get away with anything you want by tacking that on the end of it.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Have you ever read Jonah? Does this sound like a true prophet of God?

First he runs away from his calling... then after God punished him with death for sinning he begs forgiveness form the depths of hell to which God gives him a second chance.

Then after his Prophecy fails and Nineveh is not destroyed in 40 days (3 days in some versions of the text), he gets all mean and hateful lusting after their blood.

1 BUT it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.

2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

3 Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.

4

[Neo]

Have you ever read Jonah? Does this sound like a true prophet of God?

Why is he sitting outside the city gates lusting after the blood of the city?

Phenius was a Priest who God was ELATED with him for KILLING two Adulturers.

Put Joseph Smith up against Biblical Prophets and he looks like Mother Theresa every time.

PS. Your double standard is AMAZING!

Jonah is not held up in the Bible as a bastion of righteousness the way Mormon prophets are. In fact, God clearly reprimanded him by putting him inside a whale for 3 days. Jonah was defiantly against God's command for him to preach repentance to Ninevah. The story does not end on a very hopeful note for Jonah. Growing up in Mormonism, I was taught that Joseph Smith was the most righteous man since Christ. I was taught that every prophet after him was equally righteous. Additionally, Taylor claims he will obey God while Jonah had no problem admitting he refused to obey God. Comparing Biblical prophets to Mormon prophets is very uncompelling.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Well... technically it was not a whale. More likely a shark. (Translation error in Matthew and all)

Second...

Growing up in Mormonism, I was taught that Joseph Smith was the most righteous man since Christ. I was taught that every prophet after him was equally righteous.

Yet the Bible has concluded all under sin... so what gives?

Joseph Smith quite regularly in his writings confesses sinning. So... again what you learned Growing up and reality are two different things and you are blaming it on the church. Seems to me some one never read their POGP growing up.

Additionally, Taylor claims he will obey God while Jonah had no problem admitting he refused to obey God. Comparing Biblical prophets to Mormon prophets is very uncompelling.

Your argument is not compelling... you come off as just some one with an axe to grind.

Requiring perfection where none was ever claimed.

Also... Taylor claimed he followed God... but what does one do when one of Gods commands might conflict with a previously given command?

Ie Thou Shalt not Kill.

vs

Kill every Moabite, Man, Woman and Child and yellow dog who wags his tail?

[Neo]

Well... technically it was not a whale. More likely a shark. (Translation error in Matthew and all)

Second...

Growing up in Mormonism, I was taught that Joseph Smith was the most righteous man since Christ. I was taught that every prophet after him was equally righteous.

Yet the Bible has concluded all under sin... so what gives?

Joseph Smith quite regularly in his writings confesses sinning. So... again what you learned Growing up and reality are two different things and you are blaming it on the church. Seems to me some one never read their POGP growing up.

Additionally, Taylor claims he will obey God while Jonah had no problem admitting he refused to obey God. Comparing Biblical prophets to Mormon prophets is very uncompelling.

Your argument is not compelling... you come off as just some one with an axe to grind.

There is a big difference between flawed men called by God (Biblical characters)and deliberately deceptive men who claim to speak for God (Mormon leaders)when the preponderance of the evidence strongly indicates otherwise.

Neo

P.S. Interesting that you quickly label me as someone with an axe to grind when I am merely trying to have a discussion about the admitted deception and inconsistency of mormon leaders.

[Zakuska]

Again... your double Standards are shining through...

There is a big difference between flawed men called by God (Biblical characters)and deliberately deceptive men who claim to speak for God (Mormon leaders)when the preponderance of the evidence strongly indicates otherwise.

Was not Peter admitedly a deceiver? Did he not lie 3 times before the **** crew?

This ones intresting...

Acts 13: 22

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

David would keep all of Gods commandments, must have been a pretty righteous fellow. He was after Gods own heart. Well... on second thought that makes pretty good sense... Though shall not kill. Thou shalt destroy every Moabite Man, woman and child and Yellow Dog who wags his tail, David being an Adulturous Murderer.

To my knowledge JS never killed anyone yet you crucify him and turn a blind eye to... "Biblical Characters". Yep nothing like stacking the deck to get your preconcieved results.

[Neo]

Again... your double Standards are shining through...

There is a big difference between flawed men called by God (Biblical characters)and deliberately deceptive men who claim to speak for God (Mormon leaders)when the preponderance of the evidence strongly indicates otherwise.

Was not Peter admitedly a deceiver? Did he not lie 3 times before the **** crew?

This ones intresting...

Acts 13: 22

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

David would keep all of Gods commandments, must have been a pretty righteous fellow. Yet he was an Adulturous murderer.

To my knowledge JS never killed anyone yet you crucify him and turn a blind eye to... "Biblical Characters". Yep nothing like stacking the deck!

Once again, your comparisons are not compelling. David and Peter both repented. Where is Woodruff's confession? What about Taylor's failed prophecy that polygamy would not be abolished by the U.S.? Why is it so convenient that Woodruff just happened to receive the revelation about polygamy at the exact same time the government was putting pressure on him?

Neo

P.S. It is interesting that you accuse me of double standards. First, you tried to minimize Woodruff's deception because he only told "white lies" which implies it was not that bad. But now you are trying to say that it's okay to do whatever you want because David was a murderer.

[Zakuska]

Well... when would you want him to Receive Revelation for it? Please... give us your time table omniscient one. You seem to be forcing Gods hand into your own time table.

I also remember Paul and the other Aposltes making changes under Preasure from governmental and cultural influences. (eg Circumcision - which was prophecied to be a sign in the flesh forever, also the eating of prohibited meats)

PS. I accused you of Double Standards becuase you praise men with worse Characters than any LDS leader and you crucify LDS leaders for the mere fact that they are LDS leaders.

PSS. "But now you are trying to say that it's okay to do whatever you want because David was a murderer. "

Not at all... you obviously missed the point completely.

[Neo]

Well... when would you want him to Receive Revelation for it? Please... give us your time table omniscient one.

[Neo]

Not at all... you obviously missed the point completely.

Then what was your point?

[Zakuska]

Yet thats exactly what the God of Israel did... He Prophecied that King Nebechanezer(sp) would sack Tyrus and enjoy all the spoils. Yet... after a 13 year unsucessful sege, He simply gave up, without so much as even a ladies hair pin for wages and went and Conquered the Egyptians instead. Whats wrong? Wasn't the Israelite God big enough to fufill the words of Ezekiel and Isaiah?

Not to mention the Factual history error.

PS. The point was that you hold men with blaring flaws as Men of God... and Crucify men who have fewer flaws than they. Prime definition of a Double Standard.

Was JS ever given a chance to Repent?

PSS. "Taylor was clearly referring to his own lifetime because he said he would personally defy the government."

Daniel Personally defied the Goverment of his time.

So why is he held up as a "man of God' yet John Taylor is being Crucified?

Ah thats right cuz he's in the Bible and JT is not. Gotcha...

[Neo]

PS. The point was that you hold men with blaring flaws as Men of God... and Crucify men who have fewer flaws than they. Prime definition of a Double Standard.

Was JS ever given a chance to Repent?

Everyone is given multiple chances to repent.

As for your other comment, my point has never been that men in the Bible were sinless while Mormon leaders are not. Everyone is deeply flawed. However, not everyone is a false prophet.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Yes and how do we determine a false prophet?

Carefull you might just hack up your Bible in the process.

[Neo]

PSS.  "Taylor was clearly referring to his own lifetime because he said he would personally defy the government."

Daniel Personally defied the Goverment of his time.

So why is he held up as a "man of God' yet John Taylor is being Crucified?

Ah thats right cuz he's in the Bible and JT is not.  Gotcha... 

No, because Daniel actually defied the government (humbly I might add) while Taylor vehemently claimed he would defy the government and that polygamy would not be abolished in his lifetime, neither of which took place.

Neo

[Neo]

Well Zakuska, it is now 1:15 am and I must be off to bed. Have a pleasant evening.

Neo

[Zakuska]

Again Daniel was the only one in the den. John Taylor had a whole church and all its assets to worry about. A more apt comparison would be more the Prophecies that king Davids throne would be established in Jerusalem forever. Then after the Romans Sacked Jerusalem in 70AD all of a sudden the prophecies changed and where pointed to Christ.

Well... time to hit the sack.