Abortion bans lead to higher sterilization rates

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I actually agree with this.  But the child has to live with the consequences whether the parent is the best or the worse. 

 I don’t believe life is so great any suffering is worth it.  I believe in mercy killing under very limited circumstances.  Very, very limited if there can be no consent.  If we can accept God will take life in mercy, why would such be inherently a crime?  Carelessly, selfishly…that is sinful as in my view all things selfish and careless are (I don’t mean simple lack of attention here, but lack of caring, lack of emotional investment).

 I understand that others view things differently.  I don’t judge anyone as not charitable or empathetic enough if they see things differently.  People think differently based on biology, environment, experience, and likely imo the faint influence of their eternal self (quieted down so we can experience mortality mentally and spiritually independent as possible).

 I will judge people if they take away the parents’ choice (whether birth or abortion is forced…the latter is pure evil, imo; the first is understandable out of concern for the child) and then refuse to stick around to support the forced circumstances.  

Children shouldn’t have to pay for the actions of people not their parents even more than their parents.

Back to abortion choices…

It’s the children a mother may already have that rank first and foremost for me.  In my belief, there’s not a back up plan for them if Mom dies or her health goes down the tubes, if their father is also their grandfather or uncle, etc.  There is if there is a miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion.  God promised everyone a chance at life enough to receive a body and a wonderful afterlife.  Not too many universal promises for the in between.

He promised to heal our wounds as if they never existed; he never said all the pain and suffering should therefore be acceptable to us.  He never dismissed hardship in such a way.  He even went out of his way to remove unnecessary suffering caused by our sins if we let him.  Yes, he pointed out it was a “small moment” in the expanse of existence.  Yes, he mentioned others had it even harder.  He did say we didn’t understand the full context in a couple of places, that there is often a purpose to the sufferings, a reason to endure, including to condemn the wicked…which is something I will be asking for an explanation for because it seems to be very unjust (I can see if the need was to participate because there would be a future softening of the heart, but why should a good person suffer just so a bad person can be punished?  The wicked won’t get blessings, isn’t that enough?)

Anyway….best not to jump ship when things get difficult or to push others overboard.  There is a purpose to suffering.  (Doesn’t mean we need to go look for it.  Definitely doesn’t mean we should intentionally cause it for others.)

So I am not even close to saying that every baby in difficult circumstances should be aborted.  My preference would be not to, but I don’t see it as automatically short sighted, uninspired, immoral or otherwise not the best choice.  I believe that sometimes miscarriage, stillbirth, or abortion is less harmful to a spirit than that specific life would be.

I have known two women who are so fertile that even with two or more forms of birth control (it was impressive what they had tried), they typically got pregnant in a few months after their latest pregnancy.  One kept miscarrying.  She wanted a child, but needed her body to heal for a better chance.  I think she finally managed to carry one to term.  The emotional toll of going through that again and again was horrendous.  And yes, they used abstinence a few times in there.  Can’t remember if she chose to get sterilized or not.  

The other’s husband got a vasectomy after the sixth or seventh kid, iirc.  His body apparently accepted sterilization when hers had not.  Might have been fifth kid.

Yes, they both could have abstained for years instead.  But in most of the cases, their doctors assured them this time it would take.  The fail rate of tubal sterilization is pretty low.  They had taken reasonable precautions.  If they hadn’t shared their experiences with me, I would have been clueless of the behind the scenes trauma.  Would have thought the childless state of the first was a preferred choice (her husband was a grad student) and the many children of the second her plan from the beginning.

Neither of them chose to abort.  I think that was magnificent of them given life had been one long pregnancy and very short recovery from pregnancy for both for years and years.  

I don’t like pregnancy, didn’t dislike it either.  It was meh. Even breastfeeding wasn’t a fulfilling experience for me.  First kid did it so fast I didn’t have time to get comfortable and bond.  Second kid…brain was going weird by then and I would fall into depression with let down.  It is just the way I am wired I think given other experiences.  I don’t adapt well to quick changes of state.

OTOH, I adore my newborns and young ones.  The tears come every time I think of them.  I have lost them, never to see them again.  The adults are way too different.  I cannot have the same connection with them now that I did then.  They don’t move, looks smell, or make sounds the way they did then.  If I could care for my babies, I would have had many more.  Postpartum is not great; worse was pregnancy was causing health issues to dramatically accelerate.   My son was very independent,  it he still needed me fully present, being able to have him as the center of my world.  So I waited 8 years for the next one till I knew he could handle it better if I was emotionally or physically absent.  I owed him that having chosen to bring him into the world.  He should not have to pay for my actions.  She took me down so hard and kept me down (my body responding to her needs) that after a few years we knew it was best to stop there.  I would not have aborted if birth control (two kinds) failed and I got pregnant, but I would have mourned…and kept my mouth shut about the cost on the family it would be.  Loved the adult versions too, btw.  Not as intensely, as overwhelmingly I think, but as deeply.

For anyone in difficult circumstances who decides after serious consideration, preferably much prayer and research into possibilities, to abort, I would mourn with them if they decide for their family this time an abortion is necessary.  I am sooooo grateful when families are not placed in that position.

I don’t know why our American society isn’t doing everything they can to help each family avoid being placed in circumstances where abortion feels like the only workable option.  It saddens and angers me.  I am not objective about that in the least though I have lots of objective reasons why we should be helping families in this way rather than just telling them it’s not allowed.  It’s an intelligent way to grow our economy, strengthen our community, lower long term costs.

Cal. Hi. 

You always put so much loving thought into your beliefs. May we meet in a happy place of peace. I won't say more until then.

[Calm]

On 10/26/2026 at 10:36 PM, 3DOP said:

Cal. Hi. 

You always put so much loving thought into your beliefs. May we meet in a happy place of peace. I won't say more until then.

I think sometime before I became a teen, but maybe afterwards, Mom told me sometimes it was harder to live for someone than die for them.  She had almost died a couple of times in her life, including as a child and had long lasting complications from them that she had to work hard and constantly to maintain a functioning body, so I think she had a decent background for her claim.

We had just gotten home from church where someone had related the story of a mother choosing to put off cancer treatment because of being pregnant and leaving behind a young baby and several other young children because of her choice…or maybe it was in the church magazine that month.  She was not dismissive of the sacrifice, she just thought recognition of what women (and men) had to do to live for their families should be praised as well.  I do remember back then quite a few faith promoting stories of mothers dying for their children, the ultimate sacrifice, how Christ like that was.  Not much about how Christlike was washing dirty diapers while puking your guts out  or fixing meals you can’t eat, etc.  Mom taught me to look at the day to day stuff as marvels of love and charity and sacrifice, acceptable to God as much as giving up your life…it actually is just a different mode of giving up your life, most of the time not as permanent though.

I have been thinking about this stuff off and on since then.  My own health and seeing how it affected my children and husband has added another dimension to it.  I also have several in the family who have struggled to get pregnant with heartbreak and joy as results.  It is one of the most complicated discussions, imo, in the here and now.  So many high value conflicts of life changing needs, not just desires.  Implications pretty much expand into every nook and cranny.

PS:  I won’t be offended if anyone thinks I am wrong headed about this.  While I feel strongly about certain aspects of it, others I could easily change my mind about…like new data on how soon a fetus experiences the world in a complex way.  And I could change my views as medicine becomes more adept at saving premies’ lives if our society takes on that role without leading to the family having to constantly worry about bills now or in the future, so the parents and extended family can just concentrate creating a good home, whether their own or through adoption.  And I would definitely be there for much stronger limits if society was stepping in to support children rather than withholding because of a need to hold parents accountable (if that is truly needed, another way that actually works that doesn’t punish children as a side effect needs to be found).

Edited 4 hours ago by Calm

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I think sometime before I became a teen, but maybe afterwards, Mom told me sometimes it was harder to live for someone than die for them.  She had almost died a couple of times in her life, including as a child and had long lasting complications from them that she had to work hard and constantly to maintain a functioning body, so I think she had a decent background for her claim.

We had just gotten home from church where someone had related the story of a mother choosing to put off cancer treatment because of being pregnant and leaving behind a young baby and several other young children because of her choice…or maybe it was in the church magazine that month.  She was not dismissive of the sacrifice, she just thought recognition of what women (and men) had to do to live for their families should be praised as well.  I do remember quite a few faith promoting stories of mothers dying for their children, how Christ like that was.  Not much about how Christlike was washing dirty diapers while puking your guts out  or fixing meals you can’t eat, etc.  Mom taught me to look at the day to day stuff as marvels of love and charity and sacrifice, acceptable to God as much as giving up your life…it actually is just a different mode of giving up your life, most of the time not as permanent though.

I have been thinking about this stuff off and on since then.  My own health and seeing how it affected my children and husband has added another dimension to it.  I also have several in the family who have struggled to get pregnant with heartbreak and joy as results.  It is one of the most complicated discussions, imo, in the here and now.  So many high value conflicts of life changing needs, not just desires.  Implications pretty much expand into every nook and cranny.

If it is the same story, it was in the Ensign. Maybe around 1997-2000? I don't remember when exactly, but I remember the couple being prayful about it and choosing that. It was a very tough choice for them.

Edited Tuesday at 08:30 AM by Rain

[Calm]

42 minutes ago, Rain said:

If it is the same story, it was in the Ensign. Maybe around 1997-2000? I don't remember when exactly, but I remember the couple being prayful about it and choosing that. It was an very tough choice for them.swhe w as

Not the same story, I suspect, since my conversation with Mom was late 60’s most likely.  It has probably happened many times to church members over the decades unfortunately.  The way I remember the story is there was never any doubt she was choosing what she did, the focus was on her cheerfulness and willingness.  But it’s been 55 years, so who knows.

[The Nehor]

On 10/26/2026 at 8:41 PM, bluebell said:

Generally, I think that it's inherently a crime for us to attempt to take a life in mercy because we aren't God and don't know what He does.

I have to say that I think that taking a life in mercy is a mercy when they ask for it or if they certainly would if they could. My fascination with history has led me to a lot of stories of people suffering horrific wounds where death is certain but may take minutes or hours and I want to believe I would have the will to spare them that.

Maybe a God can do some good with that horror but I wouldn’t leave a person to face it. I would grant that mercy to an animal. If it is a kindness to a less aware non-human animal I can’t see how humans who can experience the pain even more should not be granted mercy.

[Calm]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

. If it is a kindness to a less aware non-human animal I can’t see how humans who can experience the pain even more should not be granted mercy.

Having experienced excruciating pain and other stuff that removed my rationality for a brief time (we are talking less than an hour and it went up and down, so not claiming anything close to what some have suffered, just explaining I have a hint of how one’s mind can stop functioning), I have to wonder what good could come from prolonging such suffering when the end result is death.   Not saying good won’t happen, just not seeing how it could at this point.  Don’t we need to be conscious and aware to learn?  If all the pain or whatever input swamps all our senses and mind, what learning can take place?  Just think of trying to read if you were right next to a fire alarm going off.  Sensory overload.  
 

It makes sense when there is a way out, an afterward, where is the time for reflection to think back and say ‘I may have felt like I was splitting in two and thought I was going to die and actually wanted to for a moment, but I am grateful now for the baby’ or ‘I couldn’t stand it, but now the skin graft is working, I can see scraping off the dead stuff over and over every day was worth it’.  But when there is no after in mortality….I don’t see what difference it makes in the afterlife that we hung around longer in such pain if we didn’t have a choice.

Edited 4 hours ago by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

would grant that mercy to an animal. If it is a kindness to a less aware non-human animal I can’t see how humans who can experience the pain even more should not be granted mercy.

Yes, why is it merciful to an animal and not to a human who might be barely conscious but in unbearable pain?  One can be unconscious and still in pain.

I think best practice is using medications that lower awareness to the point of not feeling pain, but I am not sure how they work in every case, especially if a patient has developed tolerance.  Are there new ones that can be used instead?

Also I get the slippery slope issue.  It’s dangerous and I believe it should be primarily dealt with using living wills…which I need to get in place though I have let everyone know my wishes.

But if we had a way to determine for certainty that someone would not recover (as our medicine improves, the accuracy of prognosis will as well), would anyone not already sort of comfortable with the idea of there are massive safeguards to avoid abuse okay with it then? (I suspect Catholics won’t as it is interfering with nature drastically, but seems like many life saving medications do that, so it is likely there are nuances.)

I certainly hope I don’t get placed in a situation where a discussion on something more than withholding life support while making the person comfortable comes up.

I also get that many have respect for life in general, but life is not abstract for me, it’s what we experience, not some distinct principle. I don’t see why I should respect a life that every last person would hate including the person living it.  What makes a tortured existence of value?  Serious question, not trying to be provocative.  I don’t understand it?  The being who possesses that life needs to be fully respected and cared for, but why doesn’t that sometimes mean helping them die?

Not saying I know how to go about it safely, it just seems for many it shouldn’t even be considered as a hypothetical because it’s inherently immoral in their view and I wonder why.

Edited 17 hours ago by Calm