Man of lawlessness

[Orthodox Christian]

17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Whatever. Edited to add:

We are the oppressed working poor. You don't get it because you live in Texas. We pay 7.00 per gallon for gas, .50 per kwh for electricity and we are drowning in medical, dental and car repair debt. Those people get free medical, don't need a car and don't have a PG&E bill and get free rent.

It seems to me that is those in the middle who are punished the most by society. The wealthy are barely touched due to their wealth, and they can afford costly accountants that keep them wealthy etc. We have in the UK the welfare state, which was founded on the principal of careing for the ordinary people from the cradle to the grave. And somehow working for some has been degraded, resulting in several generations now who don't and won't  work, they see it as a mugs game. Some able bodied people even believe that they have a right to live on benefits and for the state to support them. Then there are those who are genuinely poor and homeless for whatever reason. Those in the middle work because they value it as well as having to, but they are caned by taxation, and survive from paycheck to paycheck. Many now have no chance of buying a home and so are the prey of private landlords. And on top of it all thousands of migrants are sold the lie that the West is Utopia, and as a result we are inundated by unskilled, illegal immigrants. The whole thing in our Western capitalist countries is a mess, and people are miserable for a lot of the time. Then come lunatic leaders who cause wars and suffering and possible world economic collapse. Your country whichever it is in the West, I guarantee sounds pretty much like mine, we all are suffering from the same malaise from the ordinary man to the wealthy, to politicians and governments: selfishness,greed,pride and vanity. All vices that are contrary to Christ. We do not love God,nor our neighbour, we do not live His commandments, we do not do His will. Politicians sell us lies to win elections, promise those things for the greater good with no intention of keeping them. They allow themselves to be bought and corrupted, they cause wars to force countries to accept our take on democracy. We steal land, my country has been the worst, and don't  expect resistance from our victims, and the rich get richer out of these catastrophies.  If ever there was a time when Christian countries so called should return to Christ it is now. Repent, He said, that's  where it begins on a personal level. If politicians and leaders will ever see their fault is debatable, in this life, but one day  they and we will all have to give account for our own part in the human tragedy.

[theplains]

On 5/31/2026 at 5:34 PM, InCognitus said:

Yes, you have said this many times before, but this interpretation contradicts Paul's statement in verse 7 of 2 Thessalonians, which is that the man of sin was "already at work" in his day.

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and 
with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

[InCognitus]

On 6/3/2026 at 1:01 PM, theplains said:

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and 
with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

Is that supposed to make us ignore the fact that the man of sin was "already at work" in Paul's day, as it says in verse 7?

[MiserereNobis]

On 5/30/2026 at 5:19 AM, The Nehor said:

Depends why you were in the police car. If it was due to a protest or defending the marginalized or other good things then it makes an awesome wife.

Have You Been to Jail for Justice? (great song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LfN3V3id8&t=2131s

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 6/1/2026 at 9:56 AM, rodheadlee said:

Whatever. Edited to add:

We are the oppressed working poor. You don't get it because you live in Texas. We pay 7.00 per gallon for gas, .50 per kwh for electricity and we are drowning in medical, dental and car repair debt. Those people get free medical, don't need a car and don't have a PG&E bill and get free rent.

Don't be mad at them. Be mad at the system and the rich people who receive the greatest advantages of the system, and thus set the system up the way it is.

[theplains]

On 6/7/2026 at 5:47 PM, InCognitus said:

Is that supposed to make us ignore the fact that the man of sin was "already at work" in Paul's day, as it says in verse 7?

Satan has been active long before the period of the New Testament.  But we have never seen anything like
the magnitude described in verses 4-12.

Here's a brief glimpse:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until 
he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with 
the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the 
lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all 
wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved".

You mentioned verse 7.

"Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way".

How do you understand that?

[InCognitus]

On 6/10/2026 at 8:53 AM, theplains said:

Satan has been active long before the period of the New Testament.  But we have never seen anything like
the magnitude described in verses 4-12.

Here's a brief glimpse:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until 
he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with 
the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the 
lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all 
wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved".

You mentioned verse 7.

"Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way".

How do you understand that?

I understand what you quoted to be a bad translation.  This is what it says in the KJV:

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

The red words in italics aren’t in the Greek text.

And this is the Joseph Smith Translation of those same verses:

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and he it is who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time in fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.  And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.    Yea, the Lord, even Jesus, whose coming is not until after there cometh a falling away, by the working of Satan with all power, and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

And do you honestly think that we have never seen anything like the magnitude described in verses 4-12?  Are you really serious?  Look around you.  It has been going on for centuries.

Besides, this was already explained to you in my post on 03/29/2025 when I discussed the fulfillment of verse 4 when the Roman army besieged and captured Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD under the leadership of Titus. 

In that post I quoted from the Wikipedia article on Titus that says, “When Vespasian was declared Emperor on 1 July 69, Titus was left in charge of ending the Jewish rebellion. In 70, he besieged and captured Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and the Second Temple. For this achievement Titus was awarded a triumph; the Arch of Titus commemorates his victory and still stands today.”

This is a description of the Arch of Titus:  “The arch contains panels depicting the triumphal procession celebrated in 71 AD after the Roman victory culminating in the fall of Jerusalem, and provides one of the few contemporary depictions of artifacts from Herod's Temple.”  The same article describes some of the decorative sculptures on the arch: “The south inner panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The golden candelabrum or Menorah is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Gold Trumpets, the fire pans for removing the ashes from the altar, and the Table of Showbread”.

The arch contains this inscription: “The Senate and the Roman people (dedicate this) to the deified Titus Vespasian Augustus, son of the deified Vespasian”

2 Thessalonians 2:4 says (of the man of sin) that he is the one that “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”.  This was fulfilled by the works of Satan being manifest through Titus and his army when the temple at Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. 

So, for both the apostasy and “man of sin”, there is no reason to assume that either of these are some kind of future event, and there’s no reason to stretch and strain to try to make 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 and 19 depict the same events.  Paul clearly says that the man of lawlessness was already at work during his day (in verse 7) and for the apostasy he said it would begin “after my departing” (Acts 20:28-31).  Thus, these are both past events.

You simply can’t get around the fact that Paul said that the man of sin was already at work in his day.

Edited June 15 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/14/2026 at 8:33 PM, InCognitus said:

And this is the Joseph Smith Translation of those same verses:

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and he it is who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time in fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.  And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.    Yea, the Lord, even Jesus, whose coming is not until after there cometh a falling away, by the working of Satan with all power, and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

And do you honestly think that we have never seen anything like the magnitude described in verses 4-12?  Are you really serious?  Look around you.  It has been going on for centuries.

Even the JST wording points to a future event, where "Jesus, whose coming is not until after there
cometh a falling away".  This "coming" is the Second Coming.  That's the context of 2 Thessalonians 2.

The tense of the passage, using the JST, KJV, NKJV, or even the ESV ("The coming of the lawless 
one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders"), denotes the
future.  

We have not seen anything of this magnitude, even in your reference to Titus or Vespasian.

Edited June 16 by theplains

[InCognitus]

On 6/16/2026 at 9:25 AM, theplains said:

Even the JST wording points to a future event, where "Jesus, whose coming is not until after there
cometh a falling away".  This "coming" is the Second Coming.  That's the context of 2 Thessalonians 2.

You still can’t get around the fact that Paul said that the man of sin was already at work in his day.

The man of sin was already at work during Paul's life time (as Paul said), and all the other things were "future" to the time of Paul's writing of that epistle (of course), such as the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem in 70 AD and Titus being deified with his spoils from the temple, and the great apostasy (apostasía, the falling away) that followed after that.  And the man of sin continues on doing his thing until Christ returns (which is still future).

On 6/16/2026 at 9:25 AM, theplains said:

The tense of the passage, using the JST, KJV, NKJV, or even the ESV ("The coming of the lawless 
one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders"), denotes the
future.  

Even using the ESV you still can’t get around the fact that Paul said that the man of sin was already at work in his day.

"7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.  8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.  9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders"

So what does Paul say?  (1) The lawless one was ALREADY at work in his day.  (2) The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan (Satan is the lawless one).  (3) The lawless one (Satan) will be revealed and be stopped at the coming of Jesus.

On 6/16/2026 at 9:25 AM, theplains said:

We have not seen anything of this magnitude, even in your reference to Titus or Vespasian.

I think the Jews of 70 AD would strongly disagree with you.

Edited June 29 by InCognitus

[ZealouslyStriving]

On 5/24/2026 at 4:28 PM, Calm said:

Too much “crying wolf” has happened?

Are the End Times supposed to be the worse times for humanity since getting kicked out of the Garden?  Never had an End Times interest, so only know it’s supposed to get very, very bad….

Pulling from Google…if it’s supposed to be the worse, it seems like it will be pretty obvious.

The Black Death, possibly 50% of the European population and 33% of the Middle East (10% global).  

The Great Dying of the Americas (90% of the indigenous population, again about 10% of the global population)

1918 Influenza:  3-6% global

El Niños of 1875-78: famines killing about 4% global.

WW II:  3% global

Sounds like the Toba Supervolcano was possibly the worst as there might have been from a thousand to 10,000 individuals left (though debated).  Never studied this in detail, so don’t know how credible this theory is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youngest_Toba_eruption

One should never underestimate the ability of human stupidity to create disasters though.  Add human greed into the mix….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

With the weapons and technology at our fingertips, when things "pop off" it will be like nothing we've seen before.

The fact the many of our weapons systems are dependent on hackable tech just compounds the possibility of something very, very bad.

Sweet dreams! 😉

[theplains]

On 6/28/2026 at 9:04 PM, InCognitus said:

"7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.  8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.  9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders"

You never explained with individual fulfilled verse 4 ("Who opposeth and exalteth himself above 
all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, 
shewing himself that he is God" and verse 9 ("Even him, whose coming is after the working of 
Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders").
 

On 6/28/2026 at 9:04 PM, InCognitus said:

I think the Jews of 70 AD would strongly disagree with you.

You're assuming that Jesus and Paul only spoke of localized events in Jerusalem.

[InCognitus]

On 7/6/2026 at 9:31 AM, theplains said:

You never explained with individual fulfilled verse 4 ("Who opposeth and exalteth himself above 
all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, 
shewing himself that he is God" and verse 9 ("Even him, whose coming is after the working of 
Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders").

You say, “You never explained….”. 

But I say, “You never read my responses”.  “You never engage my responses”.  This is the very reason (and the one and only reason) I quit responding to you in the other threads.  You don’t engage my responses.  You ignore my responses and repeat the same things over and over.   I get that you may not agree with the reasoning in some of my responses, but to claim I “never explained” is total nonsense.  Please pay attention.

In my post to you on 03/29/2025, I said the following (pasted here again with some emphasis added in red for the parts relevant to your accusation).  This is in the context of discussing your assumed relationship between 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 and Revelation chapter 13:4-18 and Revelation 19:19-21.  I quoted part of this in my post on June 16, but the full context is required to show that I did in fact “already explain” the answer to your statement above:

Begin quote:

As for 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, the “man of sin” is Satan and those he influences.  Satan is THE antichrist and those he influences are antichrists, and it is through those under Satan’s influence that his works of darkness are made manifest.  And, according to the apostle Paul, Satan’s power was at work from Paul’s day (as he says in 2 Thessalonians 2:7, “the mystery of iniquity doth already work”) and his work will continue until Jesus returns and exposes him.  So, Satan works through a myriad of persons from Paul’s day all the way until the second coming of Jesus, where Paul says the coming of Jesus “is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders” (verse 9).  This is one huge reason that this so called “antichrist” cannot be one single human being.  Humans don’t live that long.

One such manifestation of the “man of sin” was when the Roman army besieged and captured Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD under the leadership of Titus.

The Wikipedia article on Titus summarizes this as follows:  “When Vespasian was declared Emperor on 1 July 69, Titus was left in charge of ending the Jewish rebellion. In 70, he besieged and captured Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and the Second Temple. For this achievement Titus was awarded a triumph; the Arch of Titus commemorates his victory and still stands today.”

This is a description of the Arch of Titus:  “The arch contains panels depicting the triumphal procession celebrated in 71 AD after the Roman victory culminating in the fall of Jerusalem, and provides one of the few contemporary depictions of artifacts from Herod's Temple.”  The same article describes some of the decorative sculptures on the arch: “The south inner panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The golden candelabrum or Menorah is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Gold Trumpets, the fire pans for removing the ashes from the altar, and the Table of Showbread”.

The arch contains this inscription: “The Senate and the Roman people (dedicate this) to the deified Titus Vespasian Augustus, son of the deified Vespasian”

2 Thessalonians 2:4 says (of the man of sin) that he is the one that “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”.  This was fulfilled by the works of Satan being manifest through Titus and his army when the temple at Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. 

So, for both the apostasy and “man of sin”, there is no reason to assume that either of these are some kind of future event [to us now], and there’s no reason to stretch and strain to try to make 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 and 19 depict the same events.  Paul clearly says that the man of lawlessness was already at work during his day (in verse 7) and for the apostasy he said it would begin “after my departing” (Acts 20:28-31).  Thus, these are both past events [for us now].

And you and I have discussed 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 several times already.  I’ll just repeat here what I’ve said on this topic many times before so you can see that this is something that you should already know, and to point out that you have never engaged my arguments against your interpretation on these verses or the context, and you simply continue to repeat what you want to believe about them.

In my post to you on 10/10/2019 I said:

The “great apostasy is something that Paul said would happen between the time of writing his letter, and the Second Coming.  That already happened, right after the apostles ‘departed’, just as Paul said it would (Acts 20:29-31).  And right within the context of the verses you reference (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12), in verse 7, Paul said that the cause of the great apostasy was already beginning:  2 Th 2:7  ‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.’”

In my post to you on 10/14/2019, I said:

“I see verses 8 and 9 as the second coming triumph of Jesus over the works of Satan and all who follow him (the ‘lawless’ ones).   Satan is the ‘man of sin’, ‘the son of perdition’, whose works will be destroyed at the coming of Christ.  (Isaiah 14:15-17 also refers to Satan in similar terms).  From the point of view of Paul’s time and place, it is Satan ‘who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time is fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.’ (2 Thes 2:7, JST).  He is taken out of the way at the second coming.  And the great apostasy was something that happened early on in his ‘workings’, shortly after the departure of the apostles.”

In my post to you on 10/30/2019, commenting on 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 I said:

“The ESV translates it this way: ‘For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.  And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.’   It's the same word for ‘lawless[ness]’ in both verses.  So my understanding is that it's talking about exactly the same thing, and it was already begun by Satan during Paul's lifetime.”

In my post to you on 06/15/2023, commenting on your attempt at connection Revelation 19:11-21 to 2 Thessalonians 2, I said:

“There's no mention of an apostasy in Revelation 19:11-21, that's because it has already taken place (it's depicted in Revelation 12 by the ‘woman’ going into the wilderness).  Paul said the apostasy (i.e. wolves entering into the church and ‘not sparing the flock’) would happen after his ‘departing’ in Acts 20:28-31.”

And in my post to you on 06/19/2023 commenting AGAIN about your attempt at connecting 2 Thessalonians 2 with Revelation 19:19-20, I said:

“So if you believe 2 Thes 2 is referring to the beast mentioned in Revelation 19:19-20, then how is it that this beast began his work at the time of Paul (i.e. ‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work’)?  Is the beast a man, or something else that can live from the time of Paul until the coming of Christ?”

End Quote

You still can’t get around the fact that Paul said that the man of sin was already at work in his day.

On 7/6/2026 at 9:31 AM, theplains said:

On 6/28/2026 at 7:04 PM, InCognitus said:

I think the Jews of 70 AD would strongly disagree with you.

You're assuming that Jesus and Paul only spoke of localized events in Jerusalem.

As you can see, I am assuming no such thing (please read my response this time).  It just so happens that some of the things that Paul had prophesied about (Titus destroying the Jerusalem temple and being deified, and the general apostasy) took place shortly after his departing (as Paul said it would).  But Satan is still at work through various anti-Christs throughout the world today, and will continue to do so until Christ returns and takes him “out of the way”.

And you still can’t get around the fact that Paul said that the man of sin was already at work in his day.