Man of lawlessness

[Orthodox Christian]

17 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Whatever. Edited to add:

We are the oppressed working poor. You don't get it because you live in Texas. We pay 7.00 per gallon for gas, .50 per kwh for electricity and we are drowning in medical, dental and car repair debt. Those people get free medical, don't need a car and don't have a PG&E bill and get free rent.

It seems to me that is those in the middle who are punished the most by society. The wealthy are barely touched due to their wealth, and they can afford costly accountants that keep them wealthy etc. We have in the UK the welfare state, which was founded on the principal of careing for the ordinary people from the cradle to the grave. And somehow working for some has been degraded, resulting in several generations now who don't and won't  work, they see it as a mugs game. Some able bodied people even believe that they have a right to live on benefits and for the state to support them. Then there are those who are genuinely poor and homeless for whatever reason. Those in the middle work because they value it as well as having to, but they are caned by taxation, and survive from paycheck to paycheck. Many now have no chance of buying a home and so are the prey of private landlords. And on top of it all thousands of migrants are sold the lie that the West is Utopia, and as a result we are inundated by unskilled, illegal immigrants. The whole thing in our Western capitalist countries is a mess, and people are miserable for a lot of the time. Then come lunatic leaders who cause wars and suffering and possible world economic collapse. Your country whichever it is in the West, I guarantee sounds pretty much like mine, we all are suffering from the same malaise from the ordinary man to the wealthy, to politicians and governments: selfishness,greed,pride and vanity. All vices that are contrary to Christ. We do not love God,nor our neighbour, we do not live His commandments, we do not do His will. Politicians sell us lies to win elections, promise those things for the greater good with no intention of keeping them. They allow themselves to be bought and corrupted, they cause wars to force countries to accept our take on democracy. We steal land, my country has been the worst, and don't  expect resistance from our victims, and the rich get richer out of these catastrophies.  If ever there was a time when Christian countries so called should return to Christ it is now. Repent, He said, that's  where it begins on a personal level. If politicians and leaders will ever see their fault is debatable, in this life, but one day  they and we will all have to give account for our own part in the human tragedy.

[theplains]

On 5/31/2026 at 5:34 PM, InCognitus said:

Yes, you have said this many times before, but this interpretation contradicts Paul's statement in verse 7 of 2 Thessalonians, which is that the man of sin was "already at work" in his day.

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and 
with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

[InCognitus]

On 6/3/2026 at 1:01 PM, theplains said:

You never accounted for the "activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and 
with all wicked deception for those who are perishing".

Is that supposed to make us ignore the fact that the man of sin was "already at work" in Paul's day, as it says in verse 7?

[MiserereNobis]

On 5/30/2026 at 5:19 AM, The Nehor said:

Depends why you were in the police car. If it was due to a protest or defending the marginalized or other good things then it makes an awesome wife.

Have You Been to Jail for Justice? (great song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LfN3V3id8&t=2131s

 

[MiserereNobis]

On 6/1/2026 at 9:56 AM, rodheadlee said:

Whatever. Edited to add:

We are the oppressed working poor. You don't get it because you live in Texas. We pay 7.00 per gallon for gas, .50 per kwh for electricity and we are drowning in medical, dental and car repair debt. Those people get free medical, don't need a car and don't have a PG&E bill and get free rent.

Don't be mad at them. Be mad at the system and the rich people who receive the greatest advantages of the system, and thus set the system up the way it is.

[theplains]

On 6/7/2026 at 5:47 PM, InCognitus said:

Is that supposed to make us ignore the fact that the man of sin was "already at work" in Paul's day, as it says in verse 7?

Satan has been active long before the period of the New Testament.  But we have never seen anything like
the magnitude described in verses 4-12.

Here's a brief glimpse:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until 
he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with 
the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the 
lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all 
wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved".

You mentioned verse 7.

"Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way".

How do you understand that?

[InCognitus]

On 6/10/2026 at 8:53 AM, theplains said:

Satan has been active long before the period of the New Testament.  But we have never seen anything like
the magnitude described in verses 4-12.

Here's a brief glimpse:

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until 
he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with 
the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the 
lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all 
wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved".

You mentioned verse 7.

"Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way".

How do you understand that?

I understand what you quoted to be a bad translation.  This is what it says in the KJV:

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

The red words in italics aren’t in the Greek text.

And this is the Joseph Smith Translation of those same verses:

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and he it is who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time in fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.  And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.    Yea, the Lord, even Jesus, whose coming is not until after there cometh a falling away, by the working of Satan with all power, and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

And do you honestly think that we have never seen anything like the magnitude described in verses 4-12?  Are you really serious?  Look around you.  It has been going on for centuries.

Besides, this was already explained to you in my post on 03/29/2025 when I discussed the fulfillment of verse 4 when the Roman army besieged and captured Jerusalem and destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD under the leadership of Titus. 

In that post I quoted from the Wikipedia article on Titus that says, “When Vespasian was declared Emperor on 1 July 69, Titus was left in charge of ending the Jewish rebellion. In 70, he besieged and captured Jerusalem, and destroyed the city and the Second Temple. For this achievement Titus was awarded a triumph; the Arch of Titus commemorates his victory and still stands today.”

This is a description of the Arch of Titus:  “The arch contains panels depicting the triumphal procession celebrated in 71 AD after the Roman victory culminating in the fall of Jerusalem, and provides one of the few contemporary depictions of artifacts from Herod's Temple.”  The same article describes some of the decorative sculptures on the arch: “The south inner panel depicts the spoils taken from the Temple in Jerusalem. The golden candelabrum or Menorah is the main focus and is carved in deep relief. Other sacred objects being carried in the triumphal procession are the Gold Trumpets, the fire pans for removing the ashes from the altar, and the Table of Showbread”.

The arch contains this inscription: “The Senate and the Roman people (dedicate this) to the deified Titus Vespasian Augustus, son of the deified Vespasian”

2 Thessalonians 2:4 says (of the man of sin) that he is the one that “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”.  This was fulfilled by the works of Satan being manifest through Titus and his army when the temple at Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. 

So, for both the apostasy and “man of sin”, there is no reason to assume that either of these are some kind of future event, and there’s no reason to stretch and strain to try to make 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 and 19 depict the same events.  Paul clearly says that the man of lawlessness was already at work during his day (in verse 7) and for the apostasy he said it would begin “after my departing” (Acts 20:28-31).  Thus, these are both past events.

You simply can’t get around the fact that Paul said that the man of sin was already at work in his day.

Edited June 15 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/14/2026 at 8:33 PM, InCognitus said:

And this is the Joseph Smith Translation of those same verses:

“For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and he it is who now worketh, and Christ suffereth him to work, until the time in fulfilled that he shall be taken out of the way.  And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.    Yea, the Lord, even Jesus, whose coming is not until after there cometh a falling away, by the working of Satan with all power, and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

And do you honestly think that we have never seen anything like the magnitude described in verses 4-12?  Are you really serious?  Look around you.  It has been going on for centuries.

Even the JST wording points to a future event, where "Jesus, whose coming is not until after there
cometh a falling away".  This "coming" is the Second Coming.  That's the context of 2 Thessalonians 2.

The tense of the passage, using the JST, KJV, NKJV, or even the ESV ("The coming of the lawless 
one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders"), denotes the
future.  

We have not seen anything of this magnitude, even in your reference to Titus or Vespasian.

Edited Tuesday at 03:29 PM by theplains