Being formed into Gods of their own dominions

[theplains]

On 12/3/2025 at 5:27 PM, InCognitus said:

Obviously Joseph Smith considered the premortal Jesus to be God (the Book of Mormon teaches that), as well as the Holy Spirit, so your use of that quote to make his statement apply to all other beings in heaven apart from God the Father is taking the statement out of context.

Both LDS versions of Jesus and Heavenly Father became Gods.

"He [Jesus] is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained
that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in
his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 4).

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived on an earth 
and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to this as "the great 
secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet 
Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was 
strictly in accordance with eternal principles” (Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 
page 129).

The LDS version of the Holy Spirit was once not a member of the Godhead either.

"Where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (TPJS 373). Joseph Smith's answer to 
his own rhetorical question was, "Nowhere." As with any man, there was a time when God the Father 
was childless, when he had not yet begun the procreation of his spirit family. Consequently, the 
Godhead as we know it did not exist; there was no Son of God and no Holy Ghost. [2]

[2] The spirit personage known as the Holy Ghost (D&C 130:22) was apparently begotten of the Father 
following the spirit birth of Jesus. Heber C. Kimball taught: “Well, let me tell you, the Holy Ghost 
is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to 
Jesus Christ, just as I stand by brother Brigham” (JD 5:179). Franklin D. Richards quoted Joseph 
Smith as saying that “the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in 
righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has” (Ehat 
and Cook 245).

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/doctrine-firstborn-only-begotten

[ZealouslyStriving]

27 minutes ago, theplains said:

Why?

Because that is what we are taught by prophets of God.

No matter how much glory we obtain, God will have yet more glory- because as we advance in glory it adds glory to our Father.

[theplains]

On 12/3/2025 at 5:39 PM, InCognitus said:

Please address it in this thread.  You keep avoiding this critical point.

My purpose in bringing this up is that you have a hypocritical approach of accusing others of being led astray by doctrines that (according to you) aren't taught in the Bible or disagree with your own teachings while modern Christianity has a boat load of doctrines that are unbiblical and based on teachings introduced by men and Roman Emperors long after the last book of the New Testament was written.  You are using a double standard.

From GotQuestions: What is the meaning of homoousious?

It was in the early fourth century that a man named Arius began teaching that Jesus was homoiousious 
with the Father—of a “similar substance.” According to Arianism, Jesus was “divine” but not in exactly
the same way the Father was divine. He did not teach that Jesus was heteroousious, which would have
indicated that Jesus was simply human or radically different from the Father in some other way; rather,
he taught that Jesus was “similar” to the Father. In response, a bishop named Athanasius insisted that
Jesus was homoousious with the Father—of the “same substance”—the same kind of being. In other
words, Jesus is divine in the same way as the Father is.

Jesus is fully God in the same way that the Father is God—they are of the same divine nature.

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 minutes ago, theplains said:

Both LDS versions of Jesus and Heavenly Father became Gods.

"He [Jesus] is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained
that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in
his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 4).

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived on an earth 
and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to this as "the great 
secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet 
Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was 
strictly in accordance with eternal principles” (Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 
page 129).

The LDS version of the Holy Spirit was once not a member of the Godhead either.

"Where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (TPJS 373). Joseph Smith's answer to 
his own rhetorical question was, "Nowhere." As with any man, there was a time when God the Father 
was childless, when he had not yet begun the procreation of his spirit family. Consequently, the 
Godhead as we know it did not exist; there was no Son of God and no Holy Ghost. [2]

[2] The spirit personage known as the Holy Ghost (D&C 130:22) was apparently begotten of the Father 
following the spirit birth of Jesus. Heber C. Kimball taught: “Well, let me tell you, the Holy Ghost 
is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to 
Jesus Christ, just as I stand by brother Brigham” (JD 5:179). Franklin D. Richards quoted Joseph 
Smith as saying that “the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in 
righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has” (Ehat 
and Cook 245).

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/doctrine-firstborn-only-begotten

There are two quotes by Joseph, and the rest is opinions by Kimball, Richards, and the authors.

Isolate the Joseph quotes and we can discuss their possible meaning.

[InCognitus]

32 minutes ago, theplains said:

Do you believe Gospel Principles are official teachings of the LDS Church?

Do you believe the Gospel Principles manual teaches that there is a "father above Heavenly Father", since that was the question?  Otherwise, why are you asking this?

[theplains]

2 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Do you believe the Gospel Principles manual teaches that there is a "father above Heavenly Father", since that was the question?  Otherwise, why are you asking this?

Gospel Principles doesn't teach that.

But do you believe Gospel Principles are official LDS Church teachings?

[theplains]

13 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Because that is what we are taught by prophets of God.

No matter how much glory we obtain, God will have yet more glory- because as we advance in glory it adds glory to our Father.

Like multi-level marketing.

[InCognitus]

22 minutes ago, theplains said:

Both LDS versions of Jesus and Heavenly Father became Gods.

"He [Jesus] is the Firstborn of the Father. By obedience and devotion to the truth he attained
that pinnacle of intelligence which ranked him as a God, as the Lord Omnipotent, while yet in
his pre-existent state" (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 4).

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived on an earth 
and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to this as "the great 
secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet 
Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was 
strictly in accordance with eternal principles” (Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 
page 129).

The LDS version of the Holy Spirit was once not a member of the Godhead either.

"Where was there ever a father without first being a son?" (TPJS 373). Joseph Smith's answer to 
his own rhetorical question was, "Nowhere." As with any man, there was a time when God the Father 
was childless, when he had not yet begun the procreation of his spirit family. Consequently, the 
Godhead as we know it did not exist; there was no Son of God and no Holy Ghost. [2]

[2] The spirit personage known as the Holy Ghost (D&C 130:22) was apparently begotten of the Father 
following the spirit birth of Jesus. Heber C. Kimball taught: “Well, let me tell you, the Holy Ghost 
is a man; he is one of the sons of our Father and our God; and he is that man that stood next to 
Jesus Christ, just as I stand by brother Brigham” (JD 5:179). Franklin D. Richards quoted Joseph 
Smith as saying that “the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in 
righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has” (Ehat 
and Cook 245).

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/doctrine-firstborn-only-begotten

What is your point?  None of this changes what I said, which was that you were taking Joseph Smith's comment about his "OBSERVATION OF THE SECTARIAN GOD" out of context.  Do you believe this somehow changes that?

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, theplains said:

Like multi-level marketing.

No... like family.

[InCognitus]

11 minutes ago, theplains said:

From GotQuestions: What is the meaning of homoousious?

It was in the early fourth century that a man named Arius began teaching that Jesus was homoiousious 
with the Father—of a “similar substance.” According to Arianism, Jesus was “divine” but not in exactly
the same way the Father was divine. He did not teach that Jesus was heteroousious, which would have
indicated that Jesus was simply human or radically different from the Father in some other way; rather,
he taught that Jesus was “similar” to the Father. In response, a bishop named Athanasius insisted that
Jesus was homoousious with the Father—of the “same substance”—the same kind of being. In other
words, Jesus is divine in the same way as the Father is.

Jesus is fully God in the same way that the Father is God—they are of the same divine nature.

Why didn't you keep quoting the next paragraph from the Got Questions article?

"The issue was settled at the Council of Nicaea. The bishops of the church discussed and debated the issue and finally decided by overwhelming majority that homoousious ('same substance') best encapsulates the teaching of the New Testament on the nature of Jesus. The Nicene Creed was the result of this meeting and reads in part, 'We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.' That last phrase of one being is a translation of the Greek word homoousious. The word homoousious is not found in Scripture, but the Council felt this was the best word to describe orthodox biblical teaching concerning Christ."

In your post on 11/25/2024, you said:  "I don't believe the Nicene Creed teaches the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one being." 

Do you believe that the "homoousious" God that the Roman Emperor Constantine invented WILL lead to salvation?  Or do you believe it is leading people astray?

Earlier in the thread I re-posted several statements from modern Christian sources where they are interpreting the Nicene Creed as teaching the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is "one being", and the Got Questions website (quoted above) confirms just that.   Do you believe that those who believe such things are being led astray by the word "homoousious" that the Roman Emperor Constantine added to the Nicene Creed and then later Roman emperors required that all people believe it? 

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Gospel Principles doesn't teach that.

Ok, so you're just trying to change the subject again.

1 hour ago, theplains said:

But do you believe Gospel Principles are official LDS Church teachings?

I have stated elsewhere that church manuals attempt to teach LDS doctrines, yes.  But do they claim to be 100% accurate?  No, I think they try to contain the basic views of the church at the time. 

Edited December 10, 2025 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 12/10/2025 at 5:23 PM, InCognitus said:

I have stated elsewhere that church manuals attempt to teach LDS doctrines, yes.  But do they claim to be 100% accurate?  No, I think they try to contain the basic views of the church at the time. 

Which they convey as LDS truth unless otherwise specified.

[theplains]

On 12/10/2025 at 5:21 PM, InCognitus said:

In your post on 11/25/2024, you said:  "I don't believe the Nicene Creed teaches the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is one being." 

Do you believe that the "homoousious" God that the Roman Emperor Constantine invented WILL lead to salvation?  Or do you believe it is leading people astray?

One being as in their being one God, not three.

[theplains]

On 12/10/2025 at 5:12 PM, InCognitus said:

What is your point?  None of this changes what I said, which was that you were taking Joseph Smith's comment about his "OBSERVATION OF THE SECTARIAN GOD" out of context.  Do you believe this somehow changes that?

My point was that a seminary manual (Religion 430-431) teaches Jesus become (was ranked
as) a God when he reached some level of intelligence.

This teaching is also found in the December 1975 Ensign article "How to Receive Spiritual Gifts" 
(Jesus Christ, the Firstborn, who became a god in the premortal existence, the Father's steward 
over his creations, is the one source of light for us as individuals; and the Holy Ghost is the 
"gatekeeper," as it were, the dispenser of light to us according to worthiness and ability to 
receive it").

The LDS Church also teaches Heavenly Father progressed to Godhood.

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived 
on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to 
this as "the great secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph 
Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in 
heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles” 
(Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, page 129).

Edited December 17, 2025 by theplains

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

One being as in their being one God, not three.

So "one" in the way that Jesus defined it in John 17:11, 20-23?  Or some other way?

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

My point was that a seminary manual (Religion 430-431) teaches Jesus become (was ranked
as) a God when he reached some level of intelligence.

This teaching is also found in the December 1975 Ensign article "How to Receive Spiritual Gifts" 
(Jesus Christ, the Firstborn, who became a god in the premortal existence, the Father's steward 
over his creations, is the one source of light for us as individuals; and the Holy Ghost is the 
"gatekeeper," as it were, the dispenser of light to us according to worthiness and ability to 
receive it").

So?  As we have discussed, this was also an early Christian teaching as well.  Why don't other Christians (other than the Latter-day Saints) teach what the earliest Christians taught on this subject?

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS Church also teaches Heavenly Father progressed to Godhood.

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived 
on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to 
this as "the great secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph 
Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in 
heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles” 
(Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, page 129).

So?  The earliest Christians also implied this in their teachings (i.e. "How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man?").  So what's the point?

Edited December 17, 2025 by InCognitus

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS Church also teaches Heavenly Father progressed to Godhood.

“Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived 
on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to 
this as "the great secret."

Where in the quote does it teach the thing you claim (underlined)?

Edit: The actual quote from TPJS...

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him,as one man talks and communes with another.

Edited December 17, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[theplains]

On 12/17/2025 at 5:05 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Where in the quote does it teach the thing you claim (underlined)?

Edit: The actual quote from TPJS...

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him,as one man talks and communes with another.

Exaltation is becoming God.

"Through a continual course of progression, our Heavenly Father has received exaltation 
and glory; and He points us out the same path” (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel 
Student Manual, chapter 33, page 92).

[theplains]

On 12/17/2025 at 4:50 PM, InCognitus said:

So?  As we have discussed, this was also an early Christian teaching as well.  Why don't other Christians (other than the Latter-day Saints) teach what the earliest Christians taught on this subject?

So?  The earliest Christians also implied this in their teachings (i.e. "How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man?").  So what's the point?

Many things have been taught that are not supported by scripture.

It appears you do believe Heavenly Father became a God before he became a Father of spirit
children.

Edited December 23, 2025 by theplains

[theplains]

On 12/17/2025 at 4:50 PM, InCognitus said:

So "one" in the way that Jesus defined it in John 17:11, 20-23?  Or some other way?

Christians becoming or being one like the Father and Jesus being one does not mean
we become God or a Godhead.

[ZealouslyStriving]

15 minutes ago, theplains said:

Exaltation is becoming God.

"Through a continual course of progression, our Heavenly Father has received exaltation 
and glory; and He points us out the same path” (Religion 430-431 - Doctrines of the Gospel 
Student Manual, chapter 33, page 92).

Are we quoting Joseph Smith Jr. or Lorenzo Snow? Because I thought we were speaking about what Joseph said- or didn't say.

[longview]

On 12/10/2025 at 3:01 PM, theplains said:

In response, a bishop named Athanasius insisted that Jesus was homoousious with the Father—of the “same substance”—the same kind of being. In other
words, Jesus is divine in the same way as the Father is.

Jesus is fully God in the same way that the Father is God—they are of the same divine nature.

The Bible teaches that Jesus plainly and adamantly declares that He is FULLY subservient to God the Father. He unequivocally states that He came to Earth to do the will of His Father, NOT His (Jesus') own will.

Members of the Godhead are not some kind of abstract entities of mysterious form. Instead, the three are personable and distinct beings that are loving and interacting with others just like humans deal with friends and family. God the Father presides over Jehovah (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost (an actual spirit child of the Father just like all the rest of us).

Although Jesus has ALL authority given Him by God the Father, Jesus in my opinion will NOT be FULLY God in the same way as the Father. Not until after the Millennium where Jesus will be given a Kingdom of His own to work with His Bride(s) and "beget" spirit children in a new epoch, a new Eternal Round for the next Plan of Happiness.

[theplains]

On 12/23/2025 at 10:37 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Are we quoting Joseph Smith Jr. or Lorenzo Snow? Because I thought we were speaking about what Joseph said- or didn't say.

You're right.  That quote is from Teachings of Lorenzo Snow.  

Getting back to Joseph Smith Jr., here's a quote:

"It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; 
for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was 
God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" 
(History of the Church, volume 6; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1938).

The LDS Church reiterates that Heavenly Father became a God in another seminary manual too.

"Less well understood, however, is the fact that God is an exalted man who once lived on an earth 
and underwent experiences of mortality . The Prophet Joseph Smith refers to this as "the great 
secret." (Times and Seasons 5:613, August 15 1844). See also Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet 
Joseph Smith, p. 345.) The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was 
strictly in accordance with eternal principles" (Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 
page 129).

Regarding Snow's couplet:

"As man is [not a God now] God once was [not a God once]. 
As God is [now a God], man may become [a God in the future]".

And then there's other church teaching from New Era, "People on Other Worlds".

"Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the 
creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, 
was obedient to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a 
savior for them, and through him they obtained a resurrection and an exaltation on an eternal, 
celestial world. Then they gained the power and godhood of their Father and were made heirs of
all that he had, continuing his works and creating worlds of their own for their own posterity—
the same as their Father had done before, and his Father, and his Father, and on and on"

You'll notice above that he [Heavenly Father of our Earth] did not even create the world he grew 
up on. His own Father created it for him and for his other brothers and sisters.

[theplains]

On 12/23/2025 at 1:24 PM, longview said:

Although Jesus has ALL authority given Him by God the Father, Jesus in my opinion will NOT be FULLY God in the same way as the Father. Not until after the Millennium where Jesus will be given a Kingdom of His own to work with His Bride(s) and "beget" spirit children in a new epoch, a new Eternal Round for the next Plan of Happiness.

Why does someone need to have eternal increase to be FULLY God?

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, theplains said:

Regarding Snow's couplet:

"As man is [not a God now] God once was [not a God once]. 
As God is [now a God], man may become [a God in the future]".

Uh, you are throwing your interpretation on that "couplet". Let me play!

"As man is [mortal], God once was [mortal]. As God is [exalted], man may become [exalted]."

* See how that works? Now...

Do you believe the "couplet" is impossible?

Was Jesus, who is exalted, once mortal? **