A Great Diversity within both Mormons and Evangelicals

[Navidad]

Good early morning from Chihuahua. My musings this morning center on the broad diversity within the Mormon and Evangelical communities I have observed over the years of my life. After much exposure, admixture, fellowship, as well as a few tensions with both groups, I find it of no useful purpose to try and generalize, normalize, otherize, or onlyize (my own made-up words) about either. 

My exposure to the Mormon world is perhaps broader than most non-members have had. From sitting in the tabernacle choir loft and singing with a 150-voice choir, to chatting with La Mora folks in rural Sonora, to speaking and attending numerous MHA events, to mingling with church leaders, both here in the colonies and in SLC, Boise, St. Louis, etc. to speaking at a score or so family reunions, firesides, and the like where regular LDS folks of all backgrounds gather and connect, to dialoguing countless times with members of the LeBaron culture, to six years of faithful non-member ministry and attendance in a ward, a number of discussions with Community of Christ folks and Mexican converts, and finally to interactions at least scores of LDS missionaries, both young and full-time-retired about life and faith. I don't have the perspective of one who met the same culture of LDS folks over and over, providing me a narrow viewpoint. My conclusion from all of that? There is a a wide diversity within the wider Mormon culture related to a variety of topics, beliefs, life experiences, doctrinal perspectives, and ideas about non-members and their spiritual capacities and future destinies. Of course I also observed and participated here on this forum for probably four years or so. Great diversity of practice, thought, and belief about their own faith and that of others (used in the non-Navidad sense of the word). I like the diversity I have seen. I think that makes for a stronger faith community. 

My exposure to Evangelicals has been, of course, even wider. My parents left the Fundamentalist world probably when I was eight to ten years of age and became active ministers in a variety of Evangelical (not evangelistic) communities and ministries. I went to an Evangelical college, seminary, and graduate school in addition to secular universities. I have pastored, ministered, taught, counselled with, and spoken to thousands of Evangelicals over the fifty-some years of my active life. I have interacted with Evangelicals in Europe, across Africa, in the US, and in Latin America. My conclusion from all of that is that there exists a great diversity related to a variety of topics, beliefs, life experiences, doctrinal perspectives, and ideas about non-Evangelicals and their spiritual capacities and future destinies. 

I also have observed Evangelicals opining about Mormons and Mormons about Evangelicals. The vast majority of both have five encounters repeated over twenty times with similar groups of the other. I vividly remember our Elders Quorum teacher asking the forty or so elders (plus me) in the class, "how many had been in a non-LDS worship service over their lives?. One man (as I remember) indicated he attended a wedding one time in what I remember was a Presbyterian church. Repeated negative encounters with the same brand of each group do not yield generally favorable results. Stereotypes get reinforced, and bias hardens. Yes, I believe there is a wonderful and large diversity among Evangelicals relating to just about everything in life. Reformed Evangelicals are very different from Pentecostal Evangelicals. Catholic and Orthodox Evangelicals are very different from very culturally conservative Southern Evangelicals, unless the Catholic and Orthodox Evangelicals are also culturally conservative Southern Evangelicals! Perhaps many Evangelicals are not aware of their history as a distinct entity, as many Mormons are not aware of their history as a distinct entity either. 

Ok . . . .so what is the point? Well, perhaps I don't really have a point in taking up your time to read all of this. It is simply what is on my mind as I ponder things on an early Saturday morning in chilly Chihuahua. I do happen to believe, as I am sure many of you know, that generalizing and normalizing about others is both a sin and not a very useful or helpful exercise. I see many of you talking about how Evangelicals do this or say that based on some podcasts you may have watched or some headline you have read. Ditto for my Evangelical friends in their narrow remarks about some of you. I like explaining Evangelicalism to you all, as well as explaining you all to Evangelicals. Somebody has to do it. I prefer it to not be someone with a podcast, an axe, or a grudge. I have to confess to somewhat of a "bone to pick" (not sure where that came from) against our current bishop, but I am assured time will take care of that, and we may be welcomed back into the active flock of our local ward. Best wishes to all. 

[3DOP]

Navidad, hi.

I avoid participating in the Evagelical-LDS discussions. But it is currently the only thing for me to read here. 

I could wish that you would hang around and "stir the pot"! I have missed your presence. You have understood my journey like no one else here, for reasons only you and I could well understand. I am glad to see you are active and doing well.

God bless, 

Rory

 

 

 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Navidad, hi.

I avoid participating in the Evagelical-LDS discussions. But it is currently the only thing for me to read here. 

I could wish that you would hang around and "stir the pot"! I have missed your presence. You have understood my journey like no one else here, for reasons only you and I could well understand. I am glad to see you are active and doing well.

God bless, 

Rory

 

 

 

Good to hear from you. I am trying to figure out who is still here from days gone by. You and I are migrants in similar and different ways. I respect your interests and journeys. I am somewhat of a coddiwompler. But I have always believed that the joys of the journey into the unknown are the unknown joys of the journey. Take care and best wishes. 

[InCognitus]

On 8/24/2025 at 7:52 AM, Navidad said:

Good early morning from Chihuahua. My musings this morning center on the broad diversity within the Mormon and Evangelical communities I have observed over the years of my life. After much exposure, admixture, fellowship, as well as a few tensions with both groups, I find it of no useful purpose to try and generalize, normalize, otherize, or onlyize (my own made-up words) about either.

I wish I had more time for the board these days.  This summer I have had to go on several out of state trips, my work activity has skyrocketed, and my weekends have been filled with finishing up work projects, baptisms of relatives, and moving my son's family from two different houses on four different weekends to a new house!  (I'm past ready to be done with the moving stuff.)  Normally summer is the slower time of year for my line of work, but not this year.  It's crazy.

But I wanted to take a moment to comment on what you've said here.  I think I've shared with you a little bit of my background before.  I've been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all my life, but I have always been highly interested in other religious beliefs, especially with regard to understanding the Bible.  I know I have shared with you before how I attended a weekly non-denominational Bible study between 2007 and 2020 with some people I met at the office of one of my clients, and have become close friends with one of those people who is an Anabaptist.  (The only reason we stopped meeting was because of COVID and then two years later I moved). In addition to those weekly Bible studies, I have also had many lunch visits with my Anabaptist friend and members of the Eastern Orthodox church, and people of evangelical faiths, and I still communicate with my Anabaptist friend occasionally. 

In the early 90's I also took some classes from the Bureau of Jewish Education in Phoenix, and have had interesting discussions with some Jewish friends. I also have participated on religion related message boards and BBS feeds (those used to exist) since 1988, and in religion chat rooms.  In doing that, I have conversed with people from all over the world about their Christian faith and have strived to learn their beliefs by having them explain why they believe some of the things they believe.

I have also been thrown into several strange situations by non-LDS Christians trying to evangelize my "Mormon" family.  Around 2004, a neighbor found out we are Latter-day Saints and came to our door to put down my faith.  She was a member of the "Concerned Christians" group in Mesa, Arizona, and invited me to attend their meetings, which I did on at least two occasions.  That was fun  

And in late 2009, a good non-LDS friend from work who respects me and knows I'm LDS, invited me to their church's "small group" discussion on "Mormonism" which I attended.  But what started out as a "small group" turned into a small auditorium event presentation by Jeff Durbin, a person I had had several conversations with previously at the Mesa Arizona Temple Easter Pageant.  That was also fun   That experience led me to have several lunch meetings and conversations my friend's church pastor and other members of their church.  That was also fun .  Those are only two of many other examples that could be given.

I say all the above to provide my experience with learning about other faiths so as to acknowledge and affirm what you say above about the diversity that exists among Evangelical communities from all over the world.  From my chat room experiences I have talked with Evangelical Christians from Great Britain and New Zealand, and found that their beliefs differ in significant ways from many of those in the United States.  And there is certainly not unity of belief among the Evangelical communities within the United States, there is a lot of diversity.

The bottom line is that it is wrong to put a religious label on a person and put them in a box and portray their beliefs according to popular stereotypes and cultural slants.  In all of my experiences described above I have tried very hard to listen carefully to the beliefs that other people have and let them speak for themselves.  It is not my place to presume what they believe, or I risk mischaracterizing their beliefs in the same way so many people have done with the Latter-day Saint beliefs.

Another thing I have learned is to not be offended about what other people believe. If someone else wants to believe they are in the only true church and mine is not true, what is that to me?  That doesn't change my beliefs.  But I do feel it is important to correct incorrect perceptions that others have about the church I attend and my own beliefs.  If only we could all strive to try to understand one another.

[Tacenda]

On 8/24/2025 at 7:52 AM, Navidad said:

Good early morning from Chihuahua. My musings this morning center on the broad diversity within the Mormon and Evangelical communities I have observed over the years of my life. After much exposure, admixture, fellowship, as well as a few tensions with both groups, I find it of no useful purpose to try and generalize, normalize, otherize, or onlyize (my own made-up words) about either. 

My exposure to the Mormon world is perhaps broader than most non-members have had. From sitting in the tabernacle choir loft and singing with a 150-voice choir, to chatting with La Mora folks in rural Sonora, to speaking and attending numerous MHA events, to mingling with church leaders, both here in the colonies and in SLC, Boise, St. Louis, etc. to speaking at a score or so family reunions, firesides, and the like where regular LDS folks of all backgrounds gather and connect, to dialoguing countless times with members of the LeBaron culture, to six years of faithful non-member ministry and attendance in a ward, a number of discussions with Community of Christ folks and Mexican converts, and finally to interactions at least scores of LDS missionaries, both young and full-time-retired about life and faith. I don't have the perspective of one who met the same culture of LDS folks over and over, providing me a narrow viewpoint. My conclusion from all of that? There is a a wide diversity within the wider Mormon culture related to a variety of topics, beliefs, life experiences, doctrinal perspectives, and ideas about non-members and their spiritual capacities and future destinies. Of course I also observed and participated here on this forum for probably four years or so. Great diversity of practice, thought, and belief about their own faith and that of others (used in the non-Navidad sense of the word). I like the diversity I have seen. I think that makes for a stronger faith community. 

My exposure to Evangelicals has been, of course, even wider. My parents left the Fundamentalist world probably when I was eight to ten years of age and became active ministers in a variety of Evangelical (not evangelistic) communities and ministries. I went to an Evangelical college, seminary, and graduate school in addition to secular universities. I have pastored, ministered, taught, counselled with, and spoken to thousands of Evangelicals over the fifty-some years of my active life. I have interacted with Evangelicals in Europe, across Africa, in the US, and in Latin America. My conclusion from all of that is that there exists a great diversity related to a variety of topics, beliefs, life experiences, doctrinal perspectives, and ideas about non-Evangelicals and their spiritual capacities and future destinies. 

I also have observed Evangelicals opining about Mormons and Mormons about Evangelicals. The vast majority of both have five encounters repeated over twenty times with similar groups of the other. I vividly remember our Elders Quorum teacher asking the forty or so elders (plus me) in the class, "how many had been in a non-LDS worship service over their lives?. One man (as I remember) indicated he attended a wedding one time in what I remember was a Presbyterian church. Repeated negative encounters with the same brand of each group do not yield generally favorable results. Stereotypes get reinforced, and bias hardens. Yes, I believe there is a wonderful and large diversity among Evangelicals relating to just about everything in life. Reformed Evangelicals are very different from Pentecostal Evangelicals. Catholic and Orthodox Evangelicals are very different from very culturally conservative Southern Evangelicals, unless the Catholic and Orthodox Evangelicals are also culturally conservative Southern Evangelicals! Perhaps many Evangelicals are not aware of their history as a distinct entity, as many Mormons are not aware of their history as a distinct entity either. 

Ok . . . .so what is the point? Well, perhaps I don't really have a point in taking up your time to read all of this. It is simply what is on my mind as I ponder things on an early Saturday morning in chilly Chihuahua. I do happen to believe, as I am sure many of you know, that generalizing and normalizing about others is both a sin and not a very useful or helpful exercise. I see many of you talking about how Evangelicals do this or say that based on some podcasts you may have watched or some headline you have read. Ditto for my Evangelical friends in their narrow remarks about some of you. I like explaining Evangelicalism to you all, as well as explaining you all to Evangelicals. Somebody has to do it. I prefer it to not be someone with a podcast, an axe, or a grudge. I have to confess to somewhat of a "bone to pick" (not sure where that came from) against our current bishop, but I am assured time will take care of that, and we may be welcomed back into the active flock of our local ward. Best wishes to all. 

Welcome back on participating on the board, you were missed!!

While playing pickleball with former ward friends and neighbors yesterday. They mentioned that last Sunday during Sacrament meeting there was a musical number where they had the audience stand and sing while a ukulele (?) and violin (?) were playing, "This Little Light of Mine" and they were actually clapping to it. In my days as active LDS this would be unheard of during Sacrament meetings, plus the song I don't think we'd sing, w/o the clapping even. It just seems very Evangelical like.  Which I think is great because sometimes in church the hymn singing lacked a lot. Even drove out the spirit, but not always. 

But I guess it's new in our hymns this year, here's a YouTube!

 

 

[Navidad]

20 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I wish I had more time for the board these days.  This summer I have had to go on several out of state trips, my work activity has skyrocketed, and my weekends have been filled with finishing up work projects, baptisms of relatives, and moving my son's family from two different houses on four different weekends to a new house!  (I'm past ready to be done with the moving stuff.)  Normally summer is the slower time of year for my line of work, but not this year.  It's crazy.

But I wanted to take a moment to comment on what you've said here.  I think I've shared with you a little bit of my background before.  I've been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all my life, but I have always been highly interested in other religious beliefs, especially with regard to understanding the Bible.  I know I have shared with you before how I attended a weekly non-denominational Bible study between 2007 and 2020 with some people I met at the office of one of my clients, and have become close friends with one of those people who is an Anabaptist.  (The only reason we stopped meeting was because of COVID and then two years later I moved). In addition to those weekly Bible studies, I have also had many lunch visits with my Anabaptist friend and members of the Eastern Orthodox church, and people of evangelical faiths, and I still communicate with my Anabaptist friend occasionally. 

In the early 90's I also took some classes from the Bureau of Jewish Education in Phoenix, and have had interesting discussions with some Jewish friends. I also have participated on religion related message boards and BBS feeds (those used to exist) since 1988, and in religion chat rooms.  In doing that, I have conversed with people from all over the world about their Christian faith and have strived to learn their beliefs by having them explain why they believe some of the things they believe.

I have also been thrown into several strange situations by non-LDS Christians trying to evangelize my "Mormon" family.  Around 2004, a neighbor found out we are Latter-day Saints and came to our door to put down my faith.  She was a member of the "Concerned Christians" group in Mesa, Arizona, and invited me to attend their meetings, which I did on at least two occasions.  That was fun  

And in late 2009, a good non-LDS friend from work who respects me and knows I'm LDS, invited me to their church's "small group" discussion on "Mormonism" which I attended.  But what started out as a "small group" turned into a small auditorium event presentation by Jeff Durbin, a person I had had several conversations with previously at the Mesa Arizona Temple Easter Pageant.  That was also fun   That experience led me to have several lunch meetings and conversations my friend's church pastor and other members of their church.  That was also fun .  Those are only two of many other examples that could be given.

I say all the above to provide my experience with learning about other faiths so as to acknowledge and affirm what you say above about the diversity that exists among Evangelical communities from all over the world.  From my chat room experiences I have talked with Evangelical Christians from Great Britain and New Zealand, and found that their beliefs differ in significant ways from many of those in the United States.  And there is certainly not unity of belief among the Evangelical communities within the United States, there is a lot of diversity.

The bottom line is that it is wrong to put a religious label on a person and put them in a box and portray their beliefs according to popular stereotypes and cultural slants.  In all of my experiences described above I have tried very hard to listen carefully to the beliefs that other people have and let them speak for themselves.  It is not my place to presume what they believe, or I risk mischaracterizing their beliefs in the same way so many people have done with the Latter-day Saint beliefs.

Another thing I have learned is to not be offended about what other people believe. If someone else wants to believe they are in the only true church and mine is not true, what is that to me?  That doesn't change my beliefs.  But I do feel it is important to correct incorrect perceptions that others have about the church I attend and my own beliefs.  If only we could all strive to try to understand one another.

I liked your post, so I liked it! I am sorry I copied all of it, but I forget how to copy just the part to which I am interested in responding. In this case, I am interested in responding to just one sentence: "If someone else wants to believe they are in the only true church and mine is not true, what is that to me?" Perhaps a few years ago, I would have agreed with you. Now, one life experience has changed that for me and I believe, I am fair in saying this, for my wife as well.  

You see, given our circumstances, where we live, etc., we are very limited in how we can find fellowship, ministry, and worship with real live people. Now, you might lightly say, "Just move somewhere else." Well, that isn't an easy thing to do for various reasons. I won't take your time to go into that. We have many people here we can associate with, but not very many with whom we can fellowship, minister, and worship. Stemming in part from my ingrained interest in religious history and our location near the LDS Mexican colonies, added together with an evolving belief that our LDS friends are our Christian brothers and sisters, we found a home in the ward. Our pastor/bishop loved us, valued us, and allowed us to use our gifts of ministry to worship, fellowship, and generally to feel as one with our fellow LDS Christians in the ward. Certainly we had cultural adaptation issues. I was open about them with you all here. The folks, however, helped us overcome them, and we, by and large, found peace in our role we were granted as fellow Christians in the ward - "brothers" and "sisters," as we were often called.

Then a visit from a new bishop and all that changed. I learned over the next year that "local discretion" allowed the bishop to "cancel" us as participating faithful non-members and relegate us to the place of "visitors forever." We moved from the edge of inside, where we were comfortable (as seemed to be 95% of the ward), to "others," "outsiders," and brothers and sisters in title only. It was abrupt and sudden. We were in a way "disfellowshipped." What was our sin? I guess it was not being able to acknowledge or agree that our baptisms were of no effect, at best, and "blasphemous" at worst (see Kimball). We couldn't see our LDS brothers and sisters as the only because we didn't see ourselves as the only either. For that shortcoming, sin, or crime (call it what you want) due to a differing interpretation, not of Scripture but of a handbook that apparently requires as much interpretation as does the Book of Revelation.

"So what was that to me (or to us)? It was devastating, painful, and heartbreaking (call it what you want). I appreciate that sentence, but pardon me if I find it just a bit flippant. You approach it from the perspective that someone else's beliefs, creed, or interpretation cannot separate you from your own. We discovered the opposite. It can, and it did. For me, posting this on this forum is a kind of catharsis or therapy. None of you have the power of a bishop over us who decided that our faith and commitment to Christ was not "true" in the sense of being valid or reliable enough to allow us to engage in the ward as something more than visitors, seekers, investigators, or friends. In Christ, we were much more than that. So now you know, "What that is to me." Thanks for listening. Therapy over; I will do my best not to allude to it again. Take care. After all, I may just be becoming a better Pippin or Navidad! Ha!

Edited August 27, 2025 by Navidad
new thought

[InCognitus]

On 8/27/2025 at 10:06 AM, Navidad said:

I liked your post, so I liked it! I am sorry I copied all of it, but I forget how to copy just the part to which I am interested in responding. In this case, I am interested in responding to just one sentence: "If someone else wants to believe they are in the only true church and mine is not true, what is that to me?" Perhaps a few years ago, I would have agreed with you. Now, one life experience has changed that for me and I believe, I am fair in saying this, for my wife as well.  

You see, given our circumstances, where we live, etc., we are very limited in how we can find fellowship, ministry, and worship with real live people. Now, you might lightly say, "Just move somewhere else." Well, that isn't an easy thing to do for various reasons. I won't take your time to go into that. We have many people here we can associate with, but not very many with whom we can fellowship, minister, and worship. Stemming in part from my ingrained interest in religious history and our location near the LDS Mexican colonies, added together with an evolving belief that our LDS friends are our Christian brothers and sisters, we found a home in the ward. Our pastor/bishop loved us, valued us, and allowed us to use our gifts of ministry to worship, fellowship, and generally to feel as one with our fellow LDS Christians in the ward. Certainly we had cultural adaptation issues. I was open about them with you all here. The folks, however, helped us overcome them, and we, by and large, found peace in our role we were granted as fellow Christians in the ward - "brothers" and "sisters," as we were often called.

Then a visit from a new bishop and all that changed. I learned over the next year that "local discretion" allowed the bishop to "cancel" us as participating faithful non-members and relegate us to the place of "visitors forever." We moved from the edge of inside, where we were comfortable (as seemed to be 95% of the ward), to "others," "outsiders," and brothers and sisters in title only. It was abrupt and sudden. We were in a way "disfellowshipped." What was our sin? I guess it was not being able to acknowledge or agree that our baptisms were of no effect, at best, and "blasphemous" at worst (see Kimball). We couldn't see our LDS brothers and sisters as the only because we didn't see ourselves as the only either. For that shortcoming, sin, or crime (call it what you want) due to a differing interpretation, not of Scripture but of a handbook that apparently requires as much interpretation as does the Book of Revelation.

"So what was that to me (or to us)? It was devastating, painful, and heartbreaking (call it what you want). I appreciate that sentence, but pardon me if I find it just a bit flippant. You approach it from the perspective that someone else's beliefs, creed, or interpretation cannot separate you from your own. We discovered the opposite. It can, and it did. For me, posting this on this forum is a kind of catharsis or therapy. None of you have the power of a bishop over us who decided that our faith and commitment to Christ was not "true" in the sense of being valid or reliable enough to allow us to engage in the ward as something more than visitors, seekers, investigators, or friends. In Christ, we were much more than that. So now you know, "What that is to me." Thanks for listening. Therapy over; I will do my best not to allude to it again. Take care. After all, I may just be becoming a better Pippin or Navidad! Ha!

I feel your pain, and I can't possibly comment on what would cause the new bishop to act the way he did.

I'm curious as to what "handbook" reason this bishop may have had for ostracizing you the way he did.  Did he give one?

[Navidad]

On 8/30/2025 at 4:28 PM, InCognitus said:

I feel your pain, and I can't possibly comment on what would cause the new bishop to act the way he did.

I'm curious as to what "handbook" reason this bishop may have had for ostracizing you the way he did.  Did he give one?

Basically, to be fair to him, he believes that unless the handbook specifically says a non-member may, they may not. Our former bishop was more of the opinion that if the handbook doesn't say a non-member may not, they may. That is most likely the gist of it all. Over the course of my visits and times spent with LDS friends in leadership positions, they have told me that these kinds of decisions are meant to be made by "local discretion." I guess that makes sense to me, but in our case something we had was taken away. That is always worse than something you never had not being given to you. Honoring the new bishop, I don't want to go into all the details. However, virtually all the ways we had ministered for those six years, from sacrament talks to serving as substitute teachers in Sunday school, to praying in the chapel, to singing special music were taken away. We were told we would be welcomed as visitors and nothing more. So, of course we could take the sacrament as visitors. We had been introduced to folks as "faithful non-members." Then all of a sudden, that category was not in the handbook, so we became visitors and nothing more. 

Our situation here was not normal in many ways. I understand that. To prevent the tensions that were building up over our no longer being allowed to minister, we decided it best to stay away altogether. I learned a long time ago not to be a stumbling block to anyone. Many here might agree with the bishop. I can't debate that. It just hurt. It is what I deem a soul wound. I hope that helps without me saying too much. As an add-on, our situation most likely reveals the great diversity, even between leaders in the LDS Church, whether on the local level or higher. Best wishes. 

Edited September 1, 2025 by Navidad