Ancient American DNA Unrelated to the Clovis

[Pyreaux]

There were ancient, possibly unrelated human populations in the Americas before later waves of migrants and some vanished without clear descendants.

Takeaways from the Video:

Pre-Clovis Evidence:

Fossilized footprints in White Sands, NM dated to 21,000–23,000 years ago.

Butchered mammoth bones with cut marks older than 30,000 years.

These challenge the older "Clovis-first" model.

Extinct Populations with Non-Clovis DNA:

These early groups left no apparent DNA trace in modern Native Americans.

They likely died out or were absorbed without leaving much cultural legacy.

New Migration Theories:

Multiple migration events into the Americas across different time periods.

Some people came before the land bridge (via boats?).

Book of Mormon Parallels:

1. Multiple Migrations of Genetically Isolated People 

Jaredites (Ether): First Book of Mormon group to arrive, likely isolated, flourished, then destroyed.

Lehites + Mulekites: Later arrivals that coexisted and merged. Like the Jaredites may have left no lasting culture or DNA in Native American populations.

2. Population Disappearance & Extinction

The complete destruction of Jaredite civilization mirrors early human groups that left no lasting lineage.

The Nephite extinction around 400 AD parallels how civilizations can vanish, leaving only archaeology or oral tradition.

3. Absorption & Cultural Erasure

Some Book of Mormon groups (e.g., Mulekites) may have merged with others - just as early American populations may have been absorbed.

Suggests lineages and records can be lost over time despite real historical presence.

4. Lack of Archaeological Visibility

Critics say there's no direct archaeological evidence of Nephites, Lamanites, etc. But this video highlights how even much older cultures left almost no trace, until only recent tech uncovered them.

Other Supporting Scientific or Historical Evidence

Polynesian DNA in South America: Some hints of cross-Pacific contact before Columbus.

Olmec civilization: Highly developed but with unknown origins

Bat Creek Stone / Los Lunas Decalogue Stone: Controversial artifacts with Hebrew-like inscriptions.

A Discussion

The Book of Mormon describes multiple migrations to the Americas, including groups that flourished and later vanished. Modern discoveries of pre-Clovis peoples who have no modern descendants and little material legacy, help us reframe the possibility that the Book of Mormon peoples also existed, migrated, and were absorbed or destroyed, leaving only faint traces behind. I know little about the current state of affairs of the LDS apologetics addressing DNA. This video was news to me.

Edited July 9, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Tony uk]

This could be the beginning of hard evidence to confound the doubters. Of the existence of people in the Americas. Who existed, but doubted in the eyes of some modern people.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, Tony uk said:

This could be the beginning of hard evidence to confound the doubters. Of the existence of people in the Americas. Who existed, but doubted in the eyes of some modern people.

Yep, I think I said this to you when joined is that the topic of Pre-Columbian Trans-Oceanic Diffusionism: Is any evidence that the Western Hemisphere had any contact with the Eastern Hemisphere before Columbus through an Ocean. It's usually the fun topic to learn about, you can be a diffusionist theorist without having to believe in the Book of Mormon. Just that typically, if you believe in the Book of Mormon, you are a diffusionist, even if you didn't know what that is, the Book of Mormon stories are all about ship migrations. Many Native stories are about ship migrations, not frozen land bridges.

There is some weird reverse bigotry narrative control in academia: There is a clear history of ideological resistance toward any evidence that might credit non-Native peoples with any of the Native's accomplishments. Though, I don't know what is racist to believe many other non-white people were sea-fairing and had global trade routes long before whites discovered how to cross the ocean. But its leagues less controversial than Ancient Astronaut/Alien theories.

Edited July 9, 2025 by Pyreaux

[webbles]

There was a discussion about this a few weeks ago but it appears to have been deleted during the spam purge.  The published paper about this can be read at https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ads6284.

"Clovis-first" isn't widely accepted anymore.  There have been a lot of sites found that pre-date clovis.  Some very early (like the white sands footprints).

But the people in this "lost group" are still related to ancient native americans.  They aren't a separate people.  They have no descendants, but their genetics show that they branched off of the native american dna.  Completely different than what the Book of Mormon posits.

It is useful to show that people can become "lost" genetically.  Another study that showed ancient native american dna was introduced to polynesian also showed this.  They could show the native american dna in the polynesian population because of the small population size.  But they can't yet find polynesian dna in the native american population because of the large population size.

I'd love it if we could find skeletons from 600 BC to 600 AD in the various sites that are possibly related to the Book of Mormon and do dna work on them.  I haven't see any of that yet.

[sunstoned]

There is a lot that we don't know. Recently, archaeologists found 12,000-year-old Human Footprints in the Utah desert. They have also found evidence of tobacco use during that time. This continent has been populated for thousands of years. It was never an empty land. 

[Pyreaux]

On 7/9/2025 at 11:00 PM, sunstoned said:

There is a lot that we don't know. Recently, archaeologists found 12,000-year-old Human Footprints in the Utah desert. They have also found evidence of tobacco use during that time. This continent has been populated for thousands of years. It was never an empty land. 

A lot, indeed. Like how we also found out that ancient Egyptian mummies also were using tobacco (an America-only plant), it seems there was global drug trade diffusion happening for thousands of years too.

Edited July 11, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Bat Creek Stone / Los Lunas Decalogue Stone: Controversial artifacts with Hebrew-like inscriptions.

More than just controversial 

Quote

Robert Mainfort and Mary Kwas, two archaeologists with the University of Arkansas, announced in the current issue of American Antiquity that they have found conclusive proof the Bat Creek stone was a forgery, and they identify the source of the fraud. The text of the inscription appears as an illustration in the General History, Cyclopedia, and Dictionary of Freemasonry published in 1870. John Emmert, the excavator of the Bat Creek mound, was something of a ne’er-do-well who once had been fired from the Smithsonian for drinking problems. He or an accomplice must have copied the inscription from the Masonic cyclopedia onto the slab of stone, which they then pretended to discover in their excavation. Emmert might have been trying to impress his boss with a marvelous discovery, or he might have been trying to get revenge for being fired.  The Bat Creek stone was accepted as authentic and appeared in the Smithsonian’s final report on the mounds. Ironically, this report finally established that the Mound-Builders were Native Americans, not some lost tribe from the Old World. Richard Lewontin, writing in the Nov. 18 New York Review of Books, makes the disturbing claim that “we do not know how often scientific fraud occurs, nor can we ever know.” But the historical detective work of Mainfort and Kwas has exposed one famous hoax, and has shed light on a fascinating chapter of American archaeology.

https://www.ohiohistory.org/additional-digging-uncovers-source-of-bat-creek-hoax/

[Tony uk]

Over the years, in South America. Various places are being found in relation to the Aztecs and Maya, but no one seems to be to sure what happened to the actual people who lived in these places. Without trying to overstate the obvious. North, Central and South America covers a large area. As such, people in the past that have lived in the Americas in the past. There may not ant hard evidence to be found regarding other people on these continents as with the Aztec and Mayan. That should not mean that these people did not exist.