telnetd

<Deleted my initial reply. You may have also answered a question about the spiritual creation process>

Are you sure about that? Scripture says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." (Genesis 1:26-27). I know how human males and females are involved in the creation process. But neither the husband or wife say "This child will be a son / This child will be a daughter / so let me create his/her body in my image". So I'm trying to understand if and how you believe a heavenly mother was involved to create the spirit body of Eve and other daughters in Her image?

Clarification... 2) Time frame in Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 "Our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh; That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". 3) Time from in Doctrine and Covenants 138:30 "From among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. #2 and #3 refers to the time Christ spent in the spirit world between his death and resurrection. 4) Time frame in Doctrine and Covenants 138:57 This does not refer to the time period of #2 and #3: "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead". If #3 includes women, so does #2. #4 doesn't appear to imply for women as they are not elders in this dispensation.

I believe the part about being offspring is about our being created by God, without a heavenly mother. We live, move, and have our being through Him. "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device". The Greeks depicted their gods (in a hierarchy) as humanlike but idealized. This is how they depicted their gods: Gods looked like people. They were shown as physically perfect—strong and youthful. Each god had symbols to identify them (e.g., Athena with a helmet and spear, Zeus with a thunderbolt). Though human in form, they were often portrayed as taller than mortals. Paul subtly denounced their pantheon and did not promote the idea of a heavenly mother. There was a queen in heaven in Jewish theology. I think she was called Ashtoreth. Jesus said "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham". These offspring would be created without a heavenly mother. God doesn't need to be a female to create a human female. Let me know how you feel heavenly mother was involved to create Eve. Did the spirits of the prophets in Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 (I believe you also counted women among that group here on Dec 8) have an office in the Old Testament?

#2 (Doctrine and Covenants 138:6-7) and #3 (Doctrine and Covenants 138:30) looks to me like the period between his death and resurrection. Why do you exclude faithful sisters from category #2 and only put them in #3 as you said before?

No particular reason. I just don't interpret offspring in the same way you do. God created Adam in the garden of Eden without her involvement. Which of the gods of the Athenians was Heavenly Mother? Why wouldn't the church use Paul's mention of "offspring" in Acts 17 to make an earlier issuance? What led to her existence being affirmed? Some other revelation possibly? Do you also consider current faithful Latter-day Saint sisters as prophets too or was this prophethood for only Old Testament women and a few in the New Testament?

Don't #2 and #3 refer to the same time period?

I don't believe she exists. When did Heavenly Mother become a doctrine? But are Eve and her faithful daughters considered to be the "spirits of the prophets" organized and commissioned to preach the gospel in the spirit world between Christ's death and resurrection?

What about the many unnamed faithful daughters of Eve? Are they prophets too? "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead". Sounds like the paradise side of the spirit world is not part of their ministry. It speaks of faithful elders - what about faithful women who are not elders?

Are the worthy those who meet Him in person, who will live with Him?

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 137-138 this week. Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says "Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". Out of all the faithful men and women in the spirit world where Jesus went after he died, why were only prophets commissioned to preach to those in darkness? Why couldn't Jesus personally go and preach to them when he already preached to the living who were in rebellion and transgression during his three-year ministry? Joseph F. Smith says in verse 45 it was Elias who appeared with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration but mentions Elijah in verse 46. "Elias, who was with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration; And Malachi, the prophet who testified of the coming of Elijah—of whom also Moroni spake to the Prophet Joseph Smith, declaring that he should come before the ushering in of the great and dreadful day of the Lord—were also there". The church's Bible Dictionary is quite extensive in its attempt to identify "Elias" in verse 45 with possible explanations. Elias is (1) the New Testament (Greek) form of Elijah (Hebrew), (2) a title for one who is a forerunner, (3) a title applied to others for special missions, (4) a man who apparently lived in mortality in the days of Abraham. Why didn't Smith just use the same name—either "Elijah" or "Elias"—if he meant the same person? Or was he actually talking about two different people? With the church going beyond the text to assign titles to "Elias", it appears to be introducing ambiguity to the real identity of the person who appeared with Moses.

Do the loins of Judah comprise all the biblical writers or most of them?

Is there a corresponding account how the Bible would fulfill the "stick of Judah"?

@Calm The loins of Lehi would be of Manasseh. What Book of Mormon books were written by an Ephraimite?

It was modified or put on hold in the 1800's as the saints, due to their apostasy, failed to obtain the land of their inheritance. But the future prophetic direction to gather in Doctrine and Covenants 133 is to the land of Zion in preparation for the Second Coming, not stakes of Zion in areas such as Europe or Australia though. The saints are already in their stakes so a new directive to gather to their stakes would not make sense. That's why I made a reference to the land of Zion in verse 20. The land of Zion in verse 24 does not represent all the stakes of Zion. "When the Lamb shall stand upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand, having his Father’s name written on their foreheads" Mount Zion here is a reference to Doctrine and Covenants 84:2. "Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem". There is still an outstanding prophecy for the saints to recapture their land of inheritance. See Doctrine and Covenants 101:44-58 and 103:11-36.

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 133-134 this week. A few questions about section 133 and 134. Joseph claimed to have received a revelation about the time before the Second Coming of Christ. He reported that God said believers would need to gather out of all nations and come to the land of Zion (verses 7-16). It's also confirmed in the Introduction - "All men are commanded to flee from Babylon, come to Zion, and prepare for the great day of the Lord". There is one exception - some are not initially commanded to go to Zion. "Wherefore, prepare ye, prepare ye, O my people; sanctify yourselves; gather ye together, O ye people of my church, upon the land of Zion, all you that have not been commanded to tarry". Is this land of Zion Missouri or all of America as Joseph Smith taught? Why not gather to Europe or Australia before the Second Coming? In the Second Coming, will Christ stand upon upon "the mount of Olivet, and upon the mighty ocean, even the great deep, and upon the islands of the sea, and upon the land of Zion"? What is the land of Zion in that verse (20)? Will he physically stand on all those other destinations? Another verse says "And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided". What is the land of Zion in that verse (24)? Doctrine and Covenants 101:77-80 mentions the Lord established the Constitution to maintain the rights and protection of all flesh according to just and holy principles. In Doctrine and Covenants 134:12, why would LDS missionaries choose not preach the gospel to slaves when the early disciples did not need to seek permission from Roman masters? Paul even preached to Roman soldiers.

Thank you for the very detailed info.

I understand how the church views it today, but this week's Come Follow Me lesson focused on how things were handled in the past. It’s hard to study this section without addressing what previously happened. I’ve got a few followup questions for you and for the other forum members who replied in the thread. @bluebell @CV75 @Pyreaux @teddyaware "I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines ... "David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me". Do you believe Abraham, Jacob and Moses had many wives and concubines? Which others from the beginning of creation, between Adam to after Solomon, and from New Testament or Book of Mormon times to 1830 do you think were justified by God to have many wives and concubines?

Only that one?

Come Follow Me is discussing Doctrine and Covenants 129-132 this week. Many people who read the Old Testament wonder about Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and others marrying multiple wives. Marriage between one man and one woman is God’s standard of marriage (see the section heading to Official Declaration 1; Jacob 2:27, 30). However, there have been times when God has commanded His children to practice plural marriage. They did not use the phrase "many wives and concubines"; instead they used "multiple wives". Why not portray it like it's recorded in D&C? Was it meant to de-emphasize one of its main purposes - to have much seed?

Which ones? Are women in the royal priesthood of believers (1 Peter 2)?

Were couples (a husband and wife) sealed to others besides Joseph Smith?

Had an issue when submitting so this may be a duplicate. "Seed" has several meanings. Literal (many), spiritual (many), and one (individual). Doctrine and Covenants 124:58 - "And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say unto my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed". This implies literal seed, both to Abraham and Joseph Smith. "Abraham" in that verse has 3 references in support: 1) Genesis 12:3 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". 2) Genesis 22:18 - "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" 3) Abraham 2:11 - "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse them that curse thee; and in thee (that is, in thy Priesthood) and in thy seed (that is, thy Priesthood), for I give unto thee a promise that this right shall continue in thee, and in thy seed after thee (that is to say, the literal seed, or the seed of the body) shall all the families of the earth be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal". "Seed" in (1) is Abraham. (2) could be spiritual or individual or both. "Seed" in (3) is grouped into being both the Priesthood AND literal seed. Brigham Young would be excluded. Joseph's other surviving sons would be included (Joseph Smith III, Frederick Granger Williams Smith, Alexander Hale Smith, David Hyrum Smith). It cannot even be determined if the current 15 apostles of the church are descendants of Abraham. Abraham had other sons (Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, Shuah). They did not have the priesthood. Old Testament only records the Levitical Priesthood for the tribe of Levi. This seed would be accounted to through Isaac (Genesis 21:12). Some references are not included from Genesis 12. "And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him". This is literal seed. In Galatians 3:16-17, Paul says "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect". Women are excluded if Abraham 2:11 really is "seed" in the sense of "Priesthood".

Would the women being sealed to Brigham Young make them both his seed and his wives?

How were men sealed to Joseph?