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telnetd

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Everything posted by telnetd

  1. They did have questions, doubts, and were confused about some of his teachings but they did not express a lack of faith he was the Messiah in the garden of Gethsemane. Peter, who was later rebuked by Jesus (Mark 14:38 JST), had already declared he was the Messiah (Matthew 16:16, Mark 8:29, Luke 9:20). This was also expressed earlier by Andrew and a few unnamed disciples (John 1:41).
  2. The JST flips the biblical account of who is sore amazed and heavy in sorrow (the disciples in Mark 14:36 JST vs. Jesus in Mar 14:33-34). There is no reason for the 11 disciples to "complain in their hearts, wondering if this be the Messiah" as it records. He gave them no reason to think that during or after the meal. The disciples expected political power but Jesus dispelled that hope by teaching that leaders must be servants (Luke 22), by washing their feet (John 13), and informing them of his suffering and death prior to the over meal. While the JST records the eleven complaining and wondering if he was the Messiah, Jesus only rebukes Peter, James, and John. Later, it flips the biblical account of who says "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" (Jesus in Matthew 26:41, Mark 14:38 KJV vs. the three disciples in the JST version). When Jesus was arrested later, he explicitly stopped his disciples from fighting, which strongly undercut any remaining expectation that he would lead a political or military uprising.
  3. Why do you consider it incomplete? Why would the disciples begin to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy, and to complain in their hearts, wondering if Christ was the Messiah"?
  4. Thanks. I didn't know. There is no indication of fear on Christ's part. I see no reason for the three disciples to be sore amazed, or heavy, or having a reason to complain. They were clueless as to what was going on. teddyaware quoted from Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-19. Is that suffering for those in the spirit world too? "But if they would not repent they must suffer EVEN AS I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit".
  5. So you're saying they would bleed in the spirit world.
  6. The NKJV and ESV word it a little differently. "And He took Peter, James, and John with Him, and He began to be troubled and deeply distressed". This talks about Gethsemane, not the cross. The disciples would never suffer as Christ did.
  7. The Gospel of Barnabas teaches a version of Jesus' life that aligns with Islamic beliefs, portraying Jesus as a prophet, not divine, denying his crucifixion (claiming Judas was crucified in his place), rejecting the Trinity, and prophesying the coming of Muhammad by name. It also claims Ishmael, not Isaac, was the son offered by Abraham, supporting Islamic tradition over biblical accounts. Wikipedia shows other heretical teachings. The so-called gospel is downloadable here.
  8. The JST version of Mark 14 adds some detail to the last supper and Gethsemane events. "Verily I say unto you, Of this ye shall bear record; for I will no more drink of the fruit of the vine with you, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. And now they were grieved, and wept over him". The disciples do not weep over Christ in the Bible during the meal. The scene then changes to Gethsemane. "And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane, which was a garden; and the disciples began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy, and to complain in their hearts, wondering if this be the Messiah". Jesus was the one who began to be sore amazed, not the disciples (Mark 14:33 in the KJV). The disciples do not doubt that Jesus is the Messiah in the biblical account. Later, only 3 disciples are rebuked. "And he taketh with him, Peter, and James, and John, and rebuked them, and said unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death; tarry ye here and watch". Other parts of the JST mention a few other details. "And he cometh and findeth them sleeping, and said unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? Couldest not thou watch one hour? Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. And they said unto him, The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak. And again he went away and prayed, and spake the same words. And when he returned, he found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy; neither knew they what to answer him". In the biblical record it is Jesus who says "the spirit indeed is willing/ready, but the flesh is weak", not the 3 disciples (Matthew 26:41, Mark 14:38).
  9. I do believe in the existence of the female prophets in the Old Testament. What is not clear from D&C 138 is if Jesus commissioned female prophets to preach the gospel in the spirit world between his death and resurrection and if they are excluded from the designation of "elders" in 138:57. "I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation, when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption, through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God, among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead". Does this verse exclude faithful women who died in this dispensation from going to preach there? Are they considered "elders" too? Did Eve and her faithful daughters remain in the spirit world to preach or were they resurrected with the faithful men as Moses 7:56-57 appears to me to symbolize?
  10. From the Spirit World article, it shows a future tense, about women being authorized to preach the gospel in the spirit world. This is after the advent of Joseph Smith. I assume this authorization is coming from the men who are already there. Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says that it was Jesus who authorized the spirits of the prophets to preach to those in the darkness part of the spirit world during those 3 days. So I was wondering if you believe these "spirits of the prophets" were also women? I would say no since I don't believe that part. But if I did, I would have to say the spirits of the prophets would only be men if Eve and her faithful daughters were not also prophets in the Old Testament. Another teaching in the Spirit World article said "These individuals will be brought to a state of repentance through their own suffering. Then, they will acknowledge the Savior as their Redeemer and through His power will be resurrected and then inherit the telestial kingdom of glory" 10 [See Doctrine and Covenants 76:81–88]. To me it seems that that condition is only applied to the telestial inhabitants but not the terrestrials ones. Verses 58-59 says "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". To me it seems to apply to residents of all kingdoms of glory. Maybe paying the penalty of transgressions is some type of suffering in a state of purgatory.
  11. From the article: Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says "Our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". Are Eve and her faithful daughters considered to be these "spirits of the prophets"? Are terrestrials also brought to a state of repentance through their suffering? Verses 58-59 says "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". Does this apply to residents of all kingdoms of glory?
  12. I checked that article. Doctrine and Covenants 138:36-37 says "Our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh. That they might carry the message of redemption unto all the dead, unto whom he could not go personally, because of their rebellion and transgression, that they through the ministration of his servants might also hear his words". Are Eve and her faithful daughters considered to be these "spirits of the prophets"? Are terrestrials also brought to a state of repentance through their suffering? Verses 58-59 says "The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation". Does this apply to residents of all kingdoms of glory?
  13. It was just a thought - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for Christ if Christ did not rise at all?" I had Romans 6:4 in mind. Catholic tradition teaches people can assist the deceased with their purification in purgatory so they can leave temporal punishment and enter heaven. Do souls exit spirit prison when your church performs all the ordinances for them?
  14. Some Corinthians reportedly underwent baptism (perhaps a second time) intending benefit for unbaptized dead, assuming resurrection would apply it retroactively. He responds by pointing out inconsistencies in their beliefs. He neither commands nor endorses this "baptism on behalf of the dead". He simply references it as evidence that even contemporaries act as if resurrection is real. Paul's question is rhetorical, and the implied answer is: "there would have no reason to do it at all". In other words, if the dead do not rise, then being baptized for the dead is pointless and meaningless. According to Catholic tradition, suffrages like Mass, alms, and prayers benefit the dead (especially in purgatory), but not sacraments like baptism. Another way to see it is: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead [for Christ], if the dead rise not at all? Latter-day Saints, in this ordinance, don't really know if that person being proxied for accepted or rejected it in the spirit world. Here's another rhetorical question: "why trust in baptizing the dead when you don't know if that baptism was accepted?" The implied answer: you pretend or hope it was.
  15. No. What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred.
  16. The account says they were resurrected and appeared to beings in the highest division of the celestial kingdom. Unless they saw Jesus and no one else while there. "And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men; And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day". That didn't happen as is described in Matthew 27:52-53. They were not caught up to the Son's right hand. Was Enoch's prophecy about one resurrection in one geographical place or multiple resurrections across the world?
  17. Paul is saying that the living being baptized for faith in Christ is not worth the danger they are placing themselves in if Christ is not risen. For some, he used the term "else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?" Focus on "what shall they do". What shall we do if Christ is not risen? We shall remain in the grave. We shall have no hope. He is not arguing their baptism for their faith in Christ proves the resurrection really occurred.
  18. Ok. So a prophecy of Samuel was given that could not be verified by the Nephites. Moses 7 used the phrase "and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent". Enoch, a mortal, saw it. He also saw the saints being resurrected but doesn't limit this to only two people groups. Using your form of interpretation, the event of 3 Nephi 8:18 was not verified by the Nephites either. "And the rocks were rent in twain; they were broken up upon the face of the whole earth".
  19. Is Ethan Smith's View of Hebrews inspired by God?
  20. Add one more. "... all we must do".
  21. I don't take the Book of Mormon as a historical document. But it seems even those in Enoch's time knew about future local or worldwide resurrections (Moses 7:55-57). Much of its themes and events has been copied from the Bible.
  22. I don't know. Joseph Smith did the same in the Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:55-57. "And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the Son of Man lifted up on the cross, after the manner of men; And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were veiled; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth groaned; and the rocks were rent; and the saints arose, and were crowned at the right hand of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory; And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day". What is not clear if this is a local resurrection or worldwide resurrections. It seems the saints from paradise were taken to the right hand of God in the highest division of the celestial kingdom and the rest remained in spirit prison awaiting their judgment.
  23. Christ was not baptized as a proxy for a dead person. We (the living) are baptized unto a living Christ as a outward sign of an inward expression of our faith in his atoning work. Being baptized for the dead (for Christ, or in other words for our faith in him) is of no benefit if Christ is not reason. That is what I believe is Paul's point of the question he posed.
  24. The account in 3 Nephi 23:7-13 is some prophecy of Samuel the Lamanite. Matthew's version is not a prophecy so I wouldn't say Joseph Smith copied it into the Book of Mormon.
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