telnetd

I don't believe they had a doctrine like your church. Which early Christians believed Jesus was the first spirit child of a heavenly mother/Goddess wife of Heavenly Father? Begotten, not made. And not a product of a celestial marriage. If we are, present tense, the same kind of being as God, then we are Gods now, although less developed. In your church, part of "our spirits came from God", is that they are formed through some method as spirit children to a male and female God.

A Pearl of Great Price manual says these were figurative trees. "The scriptures set forth that there were in the Garden of Eden two trees. One was the tree of life, which figuratively refers to eternal life; the other was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which figuratively refers to how and why and in what manner mortality and all that appertains to it came into being” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith [1985], 86)." But an earlier Ensign article in February 1994 says it was literal. "As Latter-day Saints, we believe that Adam and Eve partook of actual fruit. Joseph Fielding Smith also explained, “This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:115.)". According to 2 Nephi 2:15, "it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter". Was the ordering of the terms "sweet" and "bitter" done intentionally to reflect that the forbidden fruit was sweet? If the trees were not literal, how would one interpret Moses 4:13: "they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons" to cover their nakedness?

Which of the various transcripts of the Follett discourse shows Heavenly Father does not have a father above Him?

Is Heavenly Mother a spirit child of her mother?

Jesus is an eternal being in that he has always existed externally in one form or another, but he has no existed eternally as God. The church (of which you belong) teaches he became a God. . Yes. Jesus was one of these organized spirits. He was the first one organized from an intelligence into a spirit child of his heavenly mother. Then he progressed into becoming a God before he took on mortality. Christ is the only-begotten. Early Christians didn't mean offspring in the sense of a heavenly mother. It's possible God can create matter out of nothing.

You should make a more clearer and concise statement like "God the Father atoned for the children of his own heavenly mother and father". This would satisfy a portion of your "Jesus did what he saw the Father do" statement. Don't be afraid to claim, like Joseph Smith, there is a God above God the Father. Was she organized (or created) by her own heavenly parents or do you speculate God's Father allowed him the special privilege to organize (create) his own future wife and provide an atonement for her sins?

"Eternal" in the sense he always existed in some form but not "eternally" existing as a son before he becomes a son born to heavenly parents. He is therefore "co-eternal" even before becoming a son and then becoming a God. What was the being (who would eventually become Jesus the Son) organized from? Yes. Firstborn does not mean first organized or a being becoming the first born son of heavenly parents. It's possible for ex-nihilo to be true. In the LDS view, matter exists before some being or thing becomes a spirit child, later to get the name Jesus.

Who did God the Father atone for?

Jehovah's Witnesses view this as the first-creation of God. This is similar to what your church believes; that he is the first-spirit son born (created) in some way to heavenly parents.

Who did Heavenly Father atone for?

Yes. The God/man, not a being who became God.

Worshipping an exalted man is a Great Apostasy.

<deleted response>. You answered already.

Article 1: 4. Joseph Smith Never Taught Brigham’s Theories What makes you think Brigham Young considered his teachings "theories"?

Here's an analysis according to ChatGPT 1. Was the Fall a “Good” Awakening or a Tragic Sin? Gnostic view (with sources): • Apocryphon of John: “He opened their minds… and they came to know…” • Hypostasis of the Archons: “Your eyes will be opened.” The Fall is an awakening into knowledge (gnosis)—a necessary step forward. Church Fathers’ response (with sources): • Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies IV.38.1: “Man… was a child… and for this reason was easily deceived.” • Augustine of Hippo, City of God XIII.13: “Human nature was vitiated and altered.” The Fall is a rupture caused by disobedience, not progress. LDS (Mormon) view (with sources): • Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:25: “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.” • Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5:11: “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed…” Teachings from LDS leaders (with direct quotes): • Brigham Young: “The fall of man… was designed… we should never have known good and evil had not Adam partaken of the forbidden fruit.” (Journal of Discourses, 10:312) • Orson Pratt: “The fall of Adam was a step necessary to enable the human family to be born into the world.” (The Seer, p. 23) The Fall is transgressive but necessary for progression—closer to Gnostic “forward movement,” but still within a moral framework. 2. The Identity of the Serpent Gnostic view (with sources): • Hypostasis of the Archons: “The serpent… was wiser than all… and he persuaded them.” • Apocryphon of John: The serpent acts against ignorant rulers (Archons). The serpent is often a liberating figure. Church Fathers’ response (with sources): • Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 103: “The serpent… was the devil… who deceived Eve.” • Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ 17: “Eve… believed the serpent… and so death entered.” The serpent is Satan, the deceiver. LDS (Mormon) view (with sources): • Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:18: “Because he had fallen from heaven… he became a devil… and sought the misery of all mankind.” Teachings from LDS leaders (with direct quotes): • Brigham Young: “The devil… is here to try us and prove us, to see if we will serve God.” (Journal of Discourses, 13:282) • Orson Pratt: “Satan… tempted our first parents for the purpose of bringing about their fall.” (The Seer, p. 17) Even though the Fall is necessary, LDS leaders still affirm: the serpent is an adversary, not a revealer. 3. The Nature of God and Creation Gnostic view (with sources): • Apocryphon of John: “I am God and there is no other,” (spoken by a lesser, ignorant ruler) The world is created by an inferior Demiurge and is fundamentally flawed. Church Fathers’ response (with sources): • Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies II.1.1: “There is one God… who made heaven and earth.” • Athanasius of Alexandria, On the Incarnation 4: “God made all things… and saw that they were good.” Creation is good and from one true God. LDS (Mormon) view (with sources): • Book of Abraham, Abraham 4:1: “The Gods organized and formed the heavens and the earth.” Teachings from LDS leaders (with direct quotes): • Joseph Smith: “The elements are eternal.” (King Follett Discourse) • Brigham Young: “The earth… is organized from the native element.” (Journal of Discourses, 7:285) • Orson Pratt: “Matter is eternal… it was not created out of nothing.” (The Seer, p. 37) LDS teaching rejects the Gnostic “evil creator,” but also rejects creation out of nothing—offering a third model (organization of eternal matter). 4. Human Nature: Divine Spark vs Fallen Image Gnostic view (with sources): • Apocryphon of John: Humans contain a divine element (Epinoia). Humans are divine beings trapped in matter. Church Fathers’ response (with sources): • Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies V.6.1: “Man… advances… toward perfection.” • Augustine of Hippo, On Nature and Grace 3: “Human nature… was created sound… but… corrupted.” Humans are created, fallen, and dependent on grace. LDS (Mormon) view (with sources): • Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 93:29: “Man was also in the beginning with God.” Teachings from LDS leaders (with direct quotes): • Lorenzo Snow: “As man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may be.” • Orson Pratt: “Man… is destined to become a God.” (The Seer, p. 132) LDS teaching echoes a divine potential, but not a trapped spark—humans are meant to progress embodied, not escape matter. 5. Salvation: Secret Knowledge vs Public Redemption Gnostic view (with sources): • Gospel of Thomas, Saying 1: “Whoever finds the interpretation… will not taste death.” Salvation comes through hidden knowledge (gnosis). Church Fathers’ response (with sources): • Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies III.3.1: “The tradition of the apostles… has come down to us.” • Tertullian, Prescription Against Heretics 25: “We want no curious disputation after Christ.” Salvation is public, historical, and not secret. LDS (Mormon) view (with sources): • Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 76:5–10: God “reveals all mysteries… to those who serve him.” Teachings from LDS leaders (with direct quotes): • Joseph Smith: “It is the first principle… to know… God.” (King Follett Discourse) • Orson Pratt: “Knowledge… will continue to increase… worlds without end.” (The Seer, p. 101) LDS thought values knowledge and revelation, but it is expansive and shared, not secret or elitist like Gnosticism. 6. Was the Fall Necessary? Gnostic view (with sources): • Apocryphon of John: The Fall enables escape from ignorance imposed by rulers. The Fall is often necessary for liberation. Church Fathers’ response (with sources): • Augustine of Hippo, Enchiridion 11: “Evil… is the loss of good.” The Fall is not necessary, but a tragic misuse of free will. LDS (Mormon) view (with sources): • Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:22–23: “They would have remained… in a state of innocence… having no joy…” Teachings from LDS leaders (with direct quotes): • Brigham Young: “We are here because of the fall… to learn… the difference between good and evil.” (Journal of Discourses, 9:305) • Orson Pratt: “Opposition… was necessary… that man might be agent to himself.” (The Seer, p. 15) LDS theology strongly affirms: the Fall is necessary for agency and progression, though still involving real opposition. Big Picture Difference If you zoom out, the disagreement looks like this: • Gnosticism: Fall = awakening, serpent = helper, world = flawed prison • Church Fathers: Fall = sin, serpent = deceiver, world = good but corrupted • LDS theology: Fall = necessary step, serpent = deceiver, world = purposeful and good With the added LDS leader quotes, you can see even more clearly: • Brigham Young and Orson Pratt explicitly frame the Fall as necessary and educational • Yet they never rehabilitate the serpent the way Gnostic texts do • And they strongly affirm matter, embodiment, and creation as good

Are Mormons Christian? Yes. Mormons, more properly referred to as Latter-day Saints or members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, unequivocally affirm themselves to be Christian, or in other words, followers of Jesus Christ. https://faq.churchofjesuschrist.org/are-mormons-christian

What do you mean? I provided the source in the thread.

What lineage and what priesthood?

In Romans 11:1–2 Paul outlined God’s relationship with the seed of Abraham. What did Paul mean when he said that God “foreknew” His people? Paul also indicated that some people were chosen in Christ “before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). This statement suggests that many were called in the premortal world and chosen to receive special blessings contingent upon their faithfulness. These special blessings assume at least two dimensions. First, wrote Elder McConkie, “this election to a chosen lineage is based on pre- existent worthiness and is thus made ‘according to the foreknowledge of God.’ (1 Pet. 1:2.)” Elder McConkie explained that “to bring to pass the salvation of the greatest possible number of his spirit children the Lord, in general, sends the most righteous and worthy spirits to earth through the lineage of Abraham and Jacob. This course is a manifestation of his grace or in other words his love, mercy, and condescension toward his children.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 216.) Thus, those born into the lineage of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have through the centuries heard the testimony of prophets, had access to the sacred scriptures and ordinances, and been at the forefront of the work of God upon the earth. (See Harold B. Lee, in Conference Report, Oct. 1973, pp. 7–8; or Ensign, Jan. 1974, p. 5.) Second, “as part of this election, Abraham and others of the noble and great spirits were chosen before they were born for the particular missions assigned them in this life” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 216). Doctrine and Covenants 138:56 indicates that the noble and great ones “received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord … for the salvation of the souls of men” (see also Abraham 3:22–23; Jeremiah 1:4–5). (Religion 430 and 431 - Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 19). Are the seed of Cain considered part of this "seed of Abraham", whom are classified as God's people whom He foreknew?

"Do not attempt in any way to discuss or answer questions about the second anointing". https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-19?lang=eng

Will this be canonized?

Bruce Willis in Sixth Sense and Unbreakable. He's good at playing serious roles.

If I were in Utah I would check out this establishment, but would skip the challenge. Too much sugar and potential for a brain freeze incident. I once drank a chocolate milkshake fast, experienced a longer than normal brain freeze and was ready to call for an ambulance if it kept on going.

Is there any credible linguistic or archaeological evidence that Egyptian or "reformed Egyptian" was present in Native American Indian languages?

In 1 Nephi 5:11–13, Nephi explains that the brass plates of Laban contained the five books of Moses, a record of the Jews, and the prophecies of the prophets from the beginning, down to the commencement of Zedekiah's reign. Were they written in reformed-Egyptian script so they could preserve their language when they left Jerusalem (1 Nephi 3:19)?