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The forget makes sense to me if part of mortality is about us learning to understand the difference between God’s influence and our own nature. I came to this idea by remembering what it was like to go up in my home with a father who came across as if he it never even occurred to him to ask himself if he was sure about something. Not domineering so much as just purely dominant by his simple existence. It helped he was extremely capable in most things and the stuff he wasn’t (dealing with emotions) wasn’t something we had language for until much older. That apparently inherent confidence gave us kids a very strong sense of stability and security even though Mom’s situation was all over the place due to her health. After leaving home, I figured out how truly dependent and responsive I was to that aura of certainty/rightness/authority that oozed from his pores. I have both never truly trusted in my own decisions as well as also having a similar sense of certainty, so I am probably not great at judging my own ideas even if emotionally I am very confident I am much more clear sighted than the average person (my parents did teach us to be self critical in a good way, so that adds to my confidence, but I have seen the outcome of arrogant confidence, so very leery of certainty…iow, it’s complicated). Back to God…if a mortal, very limited, and error prone human can have that type of impact on less emotionally and intellectually mature humans, then my guess is even just memories of the impact of God on us would be overwhelming. They would be essentially so ‘loud’, that the noise of our own feelings and ideas would be lost. Only by extreme dampening of his presence, or rather our awareness of his presence can we assert our own individuality. And even here our internal voice can get swallowed up by the the overwhelming or the oppressive voices surrounding us, whether individual or communal.

I don’t accept the false dichotomy that there is a binary choice between God’s plan and embracing nihilism. Most atheists aren’t nihilists. Just because Hobbes had a negative take on people doesn’t mean I have to. And Hobbes ignores the fact that humans have always had societies and some form of government even if it was more informal so when did that nihilistic take apply?

Not just stand by. Deliberately put them in harm’s way and then not intervene. An active choice not to intervene. Good point, I don’t want to do that work. That is sick. If that is the highest righteousness then the laws of the cosmos I live in are depraved and sick. The hero of Omelas isn’t to be found in the ones who walk away. It is the person who hopefully one day goes in and rescues the suffering child and lets Omelas burn it that is the result. We find God’s rest in suffering and death. That is really screwed up. I don’t find the idea that someone suffered more than me edifying anymore. I can be grateful to someone who suffered more but it seems like God’s highest honor is to suffer and die for Him. A God of Martyrdom and Pain. Why do I want to be like this guy? Then my eternal reward is to allow the suffering of my own children forever and ever because that is the only way to find happiness and eventually get to do the same to my grandchildren? What kind of screwed up MLM is this? Excuse me, I would like off of the ride now please!

The video did lay out the timeline you say they omitted and I suspect the DA is playing ‘fast and loose’ with the facts. https://people.com/cornell-jane-doe-s-family-swatted-at-home-12164905 Not according to her attorney. Which you did just now by saying that mobocratic outrage was “utterly wrong”. You dismiss the mobocratic injury/murder attempt on the female victim and then tut about people being upset at the male perpetrators who, even if this isn’t something that can be criminally prosecuted, are still RAPISTS. She appears to have consented to the first two guys…..dubiously. Then those guys invited more guys in on the fun. You know who does that? Big Rapey Raper McRapersons. And those offended by the idea that they might be held accountable are targeting the victim with violence…..repeatedly. This is not new. This happens in many publicized sexual assault cases. The misogynists act to intimidate, silence, harm, or kill the victim. IT BAD. IT RAPE CULTURE. Please stop carrying water for them. K thx bye

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I have more thoughts but I have grandkids here and pizza is on its way! 😁

Think of what God does. He has said He wants us to join Him in that work. Is that work I want to do? Am I preparing myself to do it? Could I, in doing that work honor agency? Stand by as some of my children are murdered, raped and abused? The rest of God is the peace and assurance of Daniel in the lion’s den, of Shadrack and his companions in the fiery furnace, and yes, the peace and assurance of Abinidi as he burned to death and Jesus as He died on the cross. Mortality provides the chance to find His rest. Finding and maintaining that rest doesn’t make agency less messy but provides perspective, eternal perspective. Knowing that Christ experienced deeper pain and grief than I, or anyone else, will ever experience doesn’t necessarily lessen our pain, but demonstrates that the eternal glory He achieved despite that pain and suffering is available to me, and all of us as well.

I think the "Veil of Forgetfulness" is a necessary component of our mortal experiential use of agency. It's not much of a quiz if the teacher writes the answers on the whiteboard beforehand. Yet such tings are so grossly unfair. You and I were born into abundance and thank God for our food. Quite true. Unfairness is a key "Living in a Telestial World" component. I can't speak as to the perspective that allows us to definitively ascertain what is "random" and what is the result of choice and/or purpose, at least not with any real degree of certainty. I inherited many blessings because of the efforts of my parents. I can identify causal links between what they did for me as a child and where I am today. From there I extrapolate. My parents did their job well not because they were perfect, but because the precepts by which they lived and raised us were sound. I am now nearly 30 years into being a husband and father, and I have a greater appreciation of their efforts. Again: Remembrance. Gratitude. Humility. These help me cope with difficult times. No worries. I really don't think he was being flippant, but rather philosophical. He could have just as easily concluded those discussions with a shrug and "Yeah, well, we are each, as Doctor Strange put it, a 'tiny, momentary speck within an indifferent universe.' Hobbes was right: life really is 'nasty, brutish, and short.' There is nothing after we die. In the end, we have no real meaning or purpose or value." I am glad he did not say such things. Yes. We all have the option. There are things that are beyond my control, and there are things that are within my control. Faith in God is, for me, very much in the latter category. Thanks, -Smac

I’m sorry.

I used to be able to do that. Radical acceptance. Abrahamic trials. It eventually broke for me.

I used to love this quote. I came to feel differently about it. So my honest, and not taunting question to you is, why? Why would a loving God test and try us, intentionally intentionally, in such a way in order to inherit the celestial glory? Why? I think for the same reason I, as a husband and father, have felt what seems to be both A) the apex of the human experience and B) some of the greatest challenges of my entire life. That is, these things are part of a plan, and they are worth the effort. "Men are, that they might have joy" has long resonated with me, as has D&C 121: 7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; 8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes. No. I lack the knowledge and wisdom and perspective to do so. Heavenly Father, being both omniscient and omnibenevolent, is situated to do what is described in Mosiah 3:19: For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. Thanks, -Smac

I sort of get this. I just can’t expect “blessings” because I get really disillusioned when the blessings expectation is grossly unmet. but I also get being in a mindset where every day seems to have miracles in it- you do find what you seek.

When I went into Basic Training, I knew it was going to be a challenge. I went anyway because I expected to encounter these challenges, and that I would have the opportunity to meet and overcome them, or to endure them. The drill sergeants went out of their way to put stressors on us: physical endurance, fatigue, sleep deprivation, high-stress environments, dangerous environments. These were not a frustration of the purpose of Basic Training, they were part and parcel of that purpose. Other elements were nicer. We each took an oath to defend our country. We put on uniforms. We agreed, in principle, to go into harm's way if ordered to do so. We were training because, as the not-Churchill-or-Orwell-but-somebody said, I perceived that “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.” The work needed to be done, and people needed to volunteer to do it. Well-intentioned stuff like this would hopefully be times well and expressed well. Yes, that's a real struggle. A few years back I discovered that a classmate of mine from high school had died, and that police later realized that she had delivered and killed three babies. I knew this girl all through junior high and high school. We weren't chums, but we knew each other and had many classes together over the years. It was genuinely shocking to hear she had (apparently) done these terrible things, that she had chosen to do these things more than once. The death of a child through disease or natural disaster is, I think, generally more difficult to process than when a child dies through the known bad acts of a known person. Thomas Hobbes said that, without government and society, we would face "continual fear and danger of violent death" and find life to be be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." It think this observation would apply with similar utility to heavenly government and society. I can choose nihilism, or I can choose the Plan of Salvation. Both require faith, but the latter both brings much solace and joy and hope and also makes a lot of sense to me. I just can't bring myself to, in the end, embrace the notion that there is no purpose or meaning in life, that this is all there is, that good things and bad things are all just matters of happenstance, and that there is nothing when we die. And your last question you pose is one for you to ponder and conclude upon. And nobody else. This is a primary reason that led me I highly doubt a God that is taught in LDS and Christian theology exists. We all are learning from each other, but ultimately we pick and choose what influences we list to accept. I have experienced too many things that are beyond my ken to reject or remain ambivalent about the existence of God and our relationship with Him. Thanks, -Smac

For the same reason that Christ was required was to suffer far more than us all. Our suffering with Christ is the essential refiner’s fire by which our faith in God’s goodness is perfected, for if our faith remains unshakeable, in spite of every device the adversary can amass against us, we will be found worthy to inherit the infinite and eternal fullness of God’s love, intelligence, wisdom and power, and forever thereafter the powers of darkness will remain forever subject to those who have overcome the powers of darkness through their faith in Jesus Christ. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:16-18)

I’m not sure that is faith anymore if it expects nothing. That is like saying I trust someone completely knowing they are unreliable when I am in need. What is the trust based on? Maybe just being reliable in another life? Yep. And being told that I am so fortunate doesn’t help. It is like saying you should be happy. God could have made it so much worse and even did for a lot of people throughout history and up to this day. So I should trust God because he could have made it so much worse and he did for many of his children? That is supposed to be a consolation for anyone with empathy? Yeah, if God seems to make overhyped promises of prosperity and joy here and I find it underwhelming then I have a hard time getting excited about more promises that could also be overhyped. I just sometimes wonder if God is even needed in that equation.

I used to think there was. When my faith started to ebb after failed revelation I experimented and found that with the right mental and emotional stimulation I could replicate what I used to call revelatory experiences. So I went looking for continued reasons to press on elsewhere.

I keep returning to this. It squeezes a fundamental question I have often- is there room to be faithful and not expect anything at all from God? In fact for me it seems to be the only way. I find life to be woefully unfair - both in my favor and otherwise. None of it makes any sense and it threatens to erode my faith at times. after life promises do nothing to motivate me. if I can instead trust that God exists and loves me and hears me and loves me and is at the root of all that man chooses to do that is good, then I can enjoy the occasional if not oft glimmer of greatness and beauty I can thoroughly enjoy and recognize that he is at the root of that, if not the cause .

I like the idea that not all events are attributable to a God being. But the idea that he sent us here to be tested while causing us to forget everything I find much more difficult to accept. Yet such tings are so grossly unfair. You and I were born into abundance and thank God for our food. Others, they were born into a place where food may be hard to come by. How is the randomness of fair is God loves all his children eqiually? I think your daed was born into a place where he could easily be a bit flippant about it. And I do not mean that as an insult. Good things if you want to continue to believe in God.

“Seek and expect miracles.” - President Nelson Trying to lower or get rid of expectations is really pushing against the grain of scripture, prophetic counsel, and the whole vibe of church culture and admonitions. I mean, sure, there are the “and if not” admonitions that sometimes you won’t get it but my brain can’t work on this level. How do you fully expect the best and all kinds of miracles and then shift to a kind of resigned stoicism and then go back to optimistic expectations? Wouldn’t just a more moderate realism be more palatable than advocating for a roller coaster ride. I sincerely envy the people I see in Church (and elsewhere) that can seem convinced the best will happen and then it very often doesn’t and then in the next situation they seem to think the best will happen again. HOW DOES THAT BRAND OF OPTIMISM SURVIVE BEING ALMOST PERPETUALLY WRONG?

I used to love this quote. I came to feel differently about it. So my honest, and not taunting question to you is, why? Why would a loving God test and try us, intentionally intentionally, in such a way in order to inherit the celestial glory? Why? It seems cruel to me. Would any of us intentionally inflict such suffering on one of our children?

A few quick thoughts: 1. Agency. Ascribing all events to "God's will" only works in the broadest abstract sense. His will was to have us come to earth to be tested and to learn and to grow, but His will is not that we should sin, injure others, violate covenants, and so on. He gave us the opportunity to sin, apparently because of the "opposition in all things" concept, but He also gave us the means to overcome those sins (the Atonement, repentance). 2. Vicissitudes of Life. The natural, unpredictable ups and downs, shifts in fortune, and alternating phases of good and bad experiences that every person encounters. My dad, when discussing such things, would sometimes conclude with a shrug as "Well, that's all a part of living in a Telestial World." His implication was not fatalism, but rather that we can and will find a better place of peace and rest, but that meanwhile we do our part as best we can, and repent along the way. 3. For my part, I have found help in A) retaining in my memory, and repeating, the attributes of God (He knows us, loves us, our "immortality and eternal life" are His "work and {} glory" (Moses 1:37), B) striving to be grateful, and C) striving to be humble. Remembrance. Gratitude. Humility. These help me cope with difficult times. 4. Back in 2004, Elder Dennis Simmons gave a great talk: "But if not..." Very much worth a read. Thanks, -Smac

Seems like a lop sided relationship.

I wish the scriptures were better at teaching that instead of effusively talking about being blessed in all things both temporal and spiritual or pouring out blessings that there is not room to receive and the regular ‘if then’ statements that obedience leads to prosperity. The prophets should probably have stuck with the “underpromise and overdeliver” bit instead of the opposite.

How do you distinguish this feeling of God's presence from any other emotional response? Is there something that makes what you felt different or special from normal emotional reactions?

Some people take “mourn with those that mourn” to mean explain why the person shouldn’t be mourning and their mourning is wrong and bad.

The following two quotations, the first from the Prophet Joseph Smith and the second from our victorious atoning Lord, who endured infinite and eternal suffering on the way to being crowned with eternal glory and Lordship, provide two very illuminating answers to your question: “You will have all kinds of trials to pass through. And it is quite as necessary for you to be tried as it was for Abraham and other men of God, and ... God will feel after you, and He will take hold of you and wrench your very heart strings, and if you cannot stand it you will not be fit for an inheritance in the Celestial Kingdom of God.” (Joseph Smith} 6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb; 7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants 122)