South Arabian Inscriptions

[MormonVideoGame]

Is it impressive to find NHM in a region (westward of Bountiful) that has thousands of ancient inscriptions?

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=42&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0

Another map 

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=86&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=0

Elder B. H. Roberts said: “The power of the Holy Ghost … must ever be the chief source of evidence for the Book of Mormon. All other evidence is secondary. … No arrangement of evidence, however skillfully ordered; no argument, however adroitly made, can ever take its place.”

 What he is saying makes sense because I haven't seen any evidence 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[MormonVideoGame]

and the Book of Mormon never says Nahom means "to mourn" 

Quote

Likewise, the Hebrew root nhm, meaning “to mourn” (but “to roar” in Isaiah 5:29–30),16 attested in Ezekiel 24:23 and Proverbs 5:11, may reflect the actions of the daughters of Ishmael in 1 Nephi 16:35, who did “mourn exceedingly.” Thus, Book of Mormon Nahom could have an etymological connection “to mourn, to groan,” 

Ricks, Stephen D. (2011) "On Lehi's Trail: Nahom, Ishmael's Burial Place," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Vol. 20 : No. 1 , Article 5.

Edited February 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Darren10]

10 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Is it impressive to find NHM in a region that has thousands of ancient inscriptions?

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=42&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0

Another map 

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=86&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=0

Elder B. H. Roberts said: “The power of the Holy Ghost … must ever be the chief source of evidence for the Book of Mormon. All other evidence is secondary. … No arrangement of evidence, however skillfully ordered; no argument, however adroitly made, can ever take its place.”

 What he is saying makes sense because I haven't seen any evidence 

 

 

Absolutely it is by the Holy Ghost that one knows the Book of Mormon is true. While archeology is not the primary reason you know it's true it is nice to have it on your side and it does serve as a refreshing verification to the believers that what they believe in is true. Also, by applying archeology to the Book of Mormon one must thoroughly study the narrative details in the Book of Mormon which is virtuous if that book is indeed a book by God given to man by an angel of the Lord. 

Your opening statement, "Is it impressive to find NHM in a region that has thousands of ancient inscriptions?", I find deceptive. Of course that answer is no. It's no more impressive than one saying, "I found a word in the Bible". But, what if a word or phrase corresponded to a specific knowledge sought? That is impressive. The NHM inscription is found at the right place and time and serves precisely as the purpose of Lehi's traveling party being at NHM. That's what's impressive. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

VideoGame;

At tour cited map, http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=86&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=0, how many of those epigraphs say NHM? The rarer it is the more impressive it is to find, no? Especially when it's "right where it should be". 

 

Just a thought.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Darren10

[Robert F. Smith]

One must never take a single item in isolation as evidence of anything.  It must fit into the larger context, the Incense Trail, rich South Arabia, Nahom, Bountiful, etc.

That said, Nahom is most likely a biblical Hebrew place-name in qal infinitive absolute form,^[1] *Nāḥôm “Comfort, Consolation[2]; Mourning; Moan,” as the Book of Mormon burial place of Lehi’s friend Ishmael – whose daughters “did mourn exceedingly” (1 Nephi 16:35).^[3]  Such a theoretical etymology is adequate in itself.  However, nearby there is in fact an ancient South Arabian proper name Nhm/Nihm on three ca 800-700 B.C. limestone altar inscriptions at the Barʼan temple near Marib (capital of ancient Sabaʼ), in the Yemen; Nihm is the name of a still extant and large Yemenite tribe, within whose territory there was an extensive cemetery in Yemen, 100 miles east of Luhaiya and 25 miles south of Sanˁa, the current capital of the Yemen.^[4]  This may have been the place which “was called Nahom” and familiar to the Lehites (1 Nephi 16:34), thus indicating that it was an already existing place-name (Hugh Nibley).^[5]  It may very well be that the Lehites used the informal Hebrew equivalent of the term as vocalized by local ancient South Arabians, whose vocalization is today unknown to us.  Moreover, there are two different consonants in these words: the medial -h- of this Arabic term is a glottal fricative, whereas the medial -ḥ- of the Hebrew term is a pharyngeal fricative,^[6] i.e., soft -h- versus aspirated -ḥ-.  Ancient Hebrew word-play was frequently based on just such similarity of sound, and we have numerous such instances (Noah, Moses, etc.)

The Hebrew root nḥm (with aspirated -ḥ-) is also the source of the proper name Naḥûm “Comfort^[7]; Consoler[8]; Consolation, Compassion,”^[9](Jo Ann Hackett, John Tvedtnes, Ed Ashment), which is also the name of the prophetic biblical book (KJV Nahum) – a root which is also used as proper name Nĕḥûm “Mourning” in Nehemiah 7:7; John Tvedtnes),^[10] where it appears along with proper names NeḥemeYāh “Yahweh-comforts”^[11] (KJV Nehemiah), and Naḥamānî (= Syriac Nḥmʼ il), also built on the same Hebrew root.  The same Semitic root, meaning “to console, comfort; have compassion,” appears as a Phoenician proper name Nḥmy, an Amorite PN Ynḥm, a PN in Ugaritic as ^mYa-an-ḫa-mu, etc., a PN in the Amarna Letters as Yanḫamu, and in Dynasty 18 Egyptian PN lists as Yanḥam – all of which James Hoch takes to be a qal jussive or indicative, possibly meaning “May he be comforted; May He have compassion (divine name).”^[12] 

---

^[1] Which, Ed Ashment notes, is not used in the Bible in that exact form, but see Job 2:11 lěnaḥămô “comfort, consolation”; cf. Bennett, Comparative Semitic Linguistics, 102

[2] LDS Book of Mormon, 1981 ed., note to 16:34b, “HEB probably ‘consolation,’ from verb naham, ‘be sorry, console oneself’,” cited by M. Ladd, And He Spake Unto Me (2011), 130, including a lexical entry from the Blue Letter Bible at Strong’s #05163.

^[3] Reynolds & Sjodahl, CBM, I:170; John Tvedtnes, “Hebrew Names in the Book of Mormon,” in G. Khan, et al., eds., Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics, 4 vols. (Brill, 2013), online at http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/browse/encyclopedia-of-hebrew-language-and-linguistics .

^[4] R. Christensen, Ensign 8/8 (Aug 1978):73; J. Tvedtnes, “Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon,” 1994 FARMS Book of Mormon Lecture, 13; J. Tvedtnes, “Hebrew Names in the Book of Mormon,” 3, citing especially the discussion by Kent Brown, “‘The Place That Was Called Nahom’: New Light from Ancient Yemen,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, 8/1 (1999):66-68; Warren P. Aston, “The Origins of the Nihm Tribe of Yemen: A Window into Arabia's Past,” Journal of Arabian Studies: Arabia, the Gulf, and the Red Sea, 4/1 (2014): 134-148, online at https://www.academia.edu/13256024/The_Origins_of_the_ Nihm_Tribe_of_Yemen_A_Window_into_Arabias_Past ; see also the forthcoming discussion by Robert Boylan.

^[5] Nibley, LID, 90-91.  Nibley also compares Modern Arabic naḥama “to mourn,” and naḥuma “graveyard,” Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, 4 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1993; Covenant Communications, 2004), I:192, citing Warren & Michaela Aston on the graveyard at NHM in the Yemen   – cf. W. P. Aston in JBMS 10/2 (2001):56-61,71; S.K. Brown in JBMS 8/1 (1999):66-68.

^[6] Bennett, Comparative Semitic Linguistics, 8.

^[7] Cathcart in Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:998, “a well attested NW Semitic name” (citing Cathcart in Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages 7:1).

[8] LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 736, in 1979 Holy Bible.

^[9] D. Christensen in Achtemeier, ed., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 681.

^[10] Nehemiah 7:7 BHS note N^eḥum = R^eḥum in Ezra 2:2.

^[11] Ackroyd, “Nehemiah, the Book of,” in Achtemeier, ed., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 694.

^[12] Hoch, Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts, 53 #54.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Robert F. Smith

[Darren10]

Are we allowed to link to Mormon Interpreter. It may be me and didn't actually click on "Submit Reply" but what I typed does not appear here. I think this has happened to me before.

[JeremyOrbe-Smith]

So.

God is such an awesome GPS that He can guide people safely through the Arabian desert and give them detailed instructions on how to build boats capable of crossing the largest ocean on the planet and preserve a detailed description of the entire journey (including directions and place names) and then transmit said record to a Prophet living on a different continent and separated by over a thousand years ...

... but He can't bother sending anyone a vision to find Elizabeth Smart while she's being raped three times a day for nine months 18 miles from her home in Utah? 

I guess "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Thank G-d the Lord is keeping meticulous track of all our lost keys! 

Edited February 20, 2017 by JeremyOrbe-Smith

[MormonVideoGame]

7 hours ago, Darren10 said:

 how many of those epigraphs say NHM? The rarer it is the more impressive it is to find, no?

It's only three letters, and NHM fits in many words.  

7 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Especially when it's "right where it should be". 

and that "just right" place happens to have thousands of inscriptions. It is not that hard to find something when you have thousands. Do you disagree? 

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

One must never take a single item in isolation as evidence of anything.  It must fit into the larger context, the Incense Trail, rich South Arabia, Nahom, Bountiful, etc.

Like I told Darren, that specific area  (which is westward from "Bountiful") is rich of inscriptions.  It's not hard to find similarities when there are not enough details, that is the same mistake the critics make. NHM is a tribe, why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after an ancient cemetery?  

"From the general region of the NHM [to mourn] tribe" 

S. Kent Brown, "Nahom and the 'Eastward' Turn," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12:1 (2003)

Edited February 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

It's only three letters, and NHM fits in many words.  

and that "just right" place happens to have thousands of inscriptions. It is not that hard to find something when you have thousands. Do you disagree? 

Like I told Darren, that specific area  (which is westward from "Bountiful") is rich of inscriptions.  It's not hard to find similarities when there are not enough details, that is the same mistake the critics make. NHM is a tribe, why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after an ancient cemetery?  

"From the general region of the NHM [to mourn] tribe" 

S. Kent Brown, "Nahom and the 'Eastward' Turn," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12:1 (2003)

"It's only three letters, and NHM fits in many words." - True enough but where are they located as per being a name of a geographical place? I know of none other than the NHM site in question. Could you help me out and point to others?

"and that "just right" place happens to have thousands of inscriptions. It is not that hard to find something when you have thousands. Do you disagree? " - I don't disagree but what about the fact that it is in a place precisely as Nephi's account places it? So we have NHM which is inscribed at a burial place and NHM is connected to the meaning of mourning. Ishmael was buried "in a place called Nahom", meaning it already existed when Lehi's traveling party arrived. The place NHM found today was used as a burial sight and is dated to about 100 years before Lehi left Jerusalem. That gives it the right time. NHM, as already mentioned, means refers to mourning and that is what Nephi wrote the daughters of Ishmael did after their father died and was buried. This gives the modern-day NHM the right time, place, and purpose of Nephi's account.

"why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after an ancient cemetery?  " - The lack of modern-day anti-depressants being available to them?

"S. Kent Brown, "Nahom and the 'Eastward' Turn," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12:1 (2003)" - Even if accurate, and I assume it is, when and how did Joseph Smith have possession of such knowledge?

Edited February 20, 2017 by Darren10

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Are we allowed to link to Mormon Interpreter. It may be me and didn't actually click on "Submit Reply" but what I typed does not appear here. I think this has happened to me before.

Some words cause it to delete, such as certain brand names (my problem has been with drugs, don't know if there is a problem with others.  Also quoting in certain formats.  I always use "remove formatting" and that removes a lot of the problems.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Calm

[MormonVideoGame]

46 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

"and that "just right" place happens to have thousands of inscriptions. It is not that hard to find something when you have thousands. Do you disagree? " - I don't disagree but what about the fact that it is in a place precisely as Nephi's account places it?

Again, that precise place has thousands of inscriptions. It's not that hard to find three letters when you have thousands of inscriptions. 

and how "precisely"? "Eastward" doesn't say much. 

46 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

The place NHM found today was used as a burial sight and is dated to about 100 years before Lehi left Jerusalem. That gives it the right time.

S. Kent Brown (LDS apologist) says NHM is a tribe,  which means it is NOT a cemetery. CFR that the NHM inscription refers to a cemetery. Is there a burial sight near by? Of course, all tribes had a near burial sight. 

but why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after a cemetery?     

46 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

 So we have NHM which is inscribed at a burial place and NHM is connected to the meaning of mourning.

Even if NHM in the inscription means "to mourn", the Book of Mormon never says Nahom means "to mourn" 

It's extremely easy to cherry-pick similarities. 

46 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

when and how did Joseph Smith have possession of such knowledge?

He didn't, and I don't see anything impressive. Please re-read what I am saying so you can understand why. 

46 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

"It's only three letters, and NHM fits in many words." - True enough but where are they located as per being a name of a geographical place? I know of none other than the NHM site in question. Could you help me out and point to others?

You are the one that needs to show that Nahom is NHM. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Darren10]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Some words cause it to delete, such as certain brand names (my problem has been with drugs, don't know if there is a problem with others.  Also quoting in certain formats.  I always use "remove formatting" and that removes a lot of the problems.

Thanks. How do I remove formatting? I just tried it again and my Interpreter linked post is still not appearing. These are somewhat lengthy posts and so I would like them to remain posted.

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Again, that precise place has thousands of inscriptions. It's not that hard to find three letters when you have thousands of inscriptions. 

and how "precisely"? "Eastward" doesn't say much. 

S. Kent Brown (LDS apologist) says NHM is a tribe,  which means it is NOT a cemetery. CFR that the NHM inscription refers to a cemetery. Is there a burial sight near by? Of course, all tribes had a near burial sight. 

but why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after a cemetery?     

Even if NHM in the inscription means "to mourn", the Book of Mormon never says Nahom means "to mourn" 

It's extremely easy to cherry-pick similarities. 

He didn't, and I don't see anything impressive. Please re-read what I am saying so you can understand why. 

You are the one that needs to show that Nahom is NHM. 

"Again, that precise place has thousands of inscriptions. It's not that hard to find three letters when you have thousands of inscriptions. 

and how "precisely"? "Eastward" doesn't say much."

Anciently, long distances was not measured in length like we use "miles" or 'kilometers" as we use today but by time. The Book of Mormon reads (bold mine):

Quote

13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place Shazer...14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the Red Sea.... 15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, slaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings....17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time...33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time...34 And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom.

(1 Nephi 16)

At at least three intervals, Nephi mentions traveling "for many days" all 'in the same direction" which was "south-southeast" from Jerusalem. The place where the inscription NHM was found follows a south-southeast direction and if traveling on foot, it would take at least a few "many days" travel. This places the location of the modern-day NHM discovery precisely at the right place of which Nephi and his group traveled. 

Verses 35-36 of the same chapter details the following (bold mine): "35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did mourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their afflictions in the wilderness; and they did murmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger. 36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to return again to Jerusalem."

Nephi specifically mentions ("exceeding") mourning, and murmuring due to suffering. That he would mention this after being "in the place...called Nehom" was done purposefully. The Book of Mormon has many instances, as Mathew L. Bowen has essayed extensively about over at Mormon Interpreter where the given author takes time (and space on the lates) to mention a specific activity and which happens to be associated with a name related to that event. http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/author/matthewb/

"CFR that the NHM inscription refers to a cemetery. Is there a burial sight near by? Of course, all tribes had a near burial sight. "

I guess I should clarify that NHM is *associated* with a cemetery which would be a place to commonly find mourning.

(Bold mine)

Quote

There are actually multiple etymologies for translating NHM. One Semitic root means to "comfort" or to "console" (as in consoling someone that is grieving) and when Ishmael was buried at Nahom, Ishmael's daughters did "mourn exceedingly" (1 Nephi 16:35). Archaeology reveals that NHM was the largest burial site in all of ancient Arabia and that starting in about 600 B.C. (the same time that the Lehites fled Jerusalem) anyone could be buried there.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705385583/Michael-R-Ash-Discovering-Nahom.html?pg=all

(And, in addition to the use of "Nahom", Ash also validates NHM being "at the right place" via its connection to bountiful. please read)

"but why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after a cemetery? "

 

Could be vice-versa. NHM is "the largest burial site in the Arabian Peninsula", according to Mike R. Ash as cited above. Who knows for sure though.

.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Darren10

[Darren10]

8 hours ago, JeremyOrbe-Smith said:

So.

God is such an awesome GPS that He can guide people safely through the Arabian desert and give them detailed instructions on how to build boats capable of crossing the largest ocean on the planet and preserve a detailed description of the entire journey (including directions and place names) and then transmit said record to a Prophet living on a different continent and separated by over a thousand years ...

... but He can't bother sending anyone a vision to find Elizabeth Smart while she's being raped three times a day for nine months 18 miles from her home in Utah? 

I guess "all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." Thank G-d the Lord is keeping meticulous track of all our lost keys! 

As painful as it was to experience, I think God transformed Elizabeth Smart into His instrument for good. Jesus Christ suffered with Elizabeth throughout all her rapings. He felt and experienced all her pain, I'd say every nano-ounce of it. Through Christ she has been transformed and will be eternally transformed to an exalted being if you ask me.

That's what I thank God for.

Lehi and his party suffered, she suffered. The Liahona guided them through by their heeding to the word of God; Elizabeth Smart suffered, by her heeding to the word of God. Some in Lehi's party rebeled, and were skeptical of the visions God sent to Lehi. Some here, not to name names, express skepticism as well when discussing God's word.

Just something to think about.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Darren10

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Are we allowed to link to Mormon Interpreter. It may be me and didn't actually click on "Submit Reply" but what I typed does not appear here. I think this has happened to me before.

Yeh, the same thing has happened to me from time to time, but it is not because we are not allowed cite Interpreter.  It is a glitch in the system here.

[Darren10]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, the same thing has happened to me from time to time, but it is not because we are not allowed cite Interpreter.  It is a glitch in the system here.

Thanks. Calm also told me about this.

[RevTestament]

9 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Are we allowed to link to Mormon Interpreter. It may be me and didn't actually click on "Submit Reply" but what I typed does not appear here. I think this has happened to me before.

Darren, you will see a little "remove formatting" at the bottom of the reply box. Hit that, and it will remove the formatting in the post the software doesn't like. Otherwise, your whole post may disappear when you hit "submit reply." 

[MormonVideoGame]

49 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

At at least three intervals, Nephi mentions traveling "for many days" all 'in the same direction" which was "south-southeast" from Jerusalem.

 from the "valley which he called Lemuel", not Jerusalem.  "it would take at least a few "many days" travel." from Jerusalem? I would say at least many weeks. 

Anyways, "for many days" "south-southeast" and "eastward" still doesn't say much!  

Let's use your descriptions in a USA map. If I tell you to look for a state that is "nearly a south-southeast" from North Dakota, then make a "nearly eastward" turn to Va, NC, or SC (There are many Bountiful candidates). In which city or state did you make a nearly eastward turn?  It's hard to know which state, let alone a city! 

49 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Nephi specifically mentions ("exceeding") mourning, and murmuring due to suffering. That he would mention this after being "in the place...called Nehom" was done purposefully. 

That is a possibility, but all you doing is speculating. Book of Mormon never says Nahom means "mourning".  

49 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

The Book of Mormon has many instances, as Mathew L. Bowen has essayed extensively about over at Mormon Interpreter where the given author takes time (and space on the lates) to mention a specific activity and which happens to be associated with a name related to that event.

Are you talking about the Old World? Nahom is the only place (outside of the Bible) that wasn't named by Lehi, do you disagree? Examples please.  

49 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Could be vice-versa. NHM is "the largest burial site in the Arabian Peninsula", according to Mike R. Ash as cited above. Who knows for sure though.

The Mormon Interpreter are Mike Ash are not academic Journals, and whether NHM is a burial site or not is totally irrelevant because the Book of Mormon never says "Nahom" is a burial site, or that it means "to mourn". All you doing is speculation, speculation is NOT impressive. 

You keep ignoring that finding NHM in a place where there are thousands of inscriptions in NOT impressive. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

It's only three letters, and NHM fits in many words.  

and that "just right" place happens to have thousands of inscriptions. It is not that hard to find something when you have thousands. Do you disagree? 

There are many (not thousands) of inscriptions in the area, but only three have the NHM on them, and they just happen to come from just the right place and time.  You may believe in coincidence, but I don't believe that such a coincidence can be accounted for in light of all the other coincidences which I cited.  There was no way that Joseph Smith Jr could have known about the true nature of ancient South Arabia, nor of the fact of areas along the coast matching the description of Bountiful -- and the direction they turned to get there.  Minimalists always try to ignore the combined facts.

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Like I told Darren, that specific area  (which is westward from "Bountiful") is rich of inscriptions.  It's not hard to find similarities when there are not enough details, that is the same mistake the critics make. NHM is a tribe, why would a tribe (NHM which allegedly means "to mourn") call itself after an ancient cemetery?  

"From the general region of the NHM [to mourn] tribe" 

We do not  know the meaning of the ancient South Arabic name NHM, nor even how it was pronounced.  You need to go back and reread my etymological and historical comments, in which I show how such a word could be used by the Hebrew-speaking Lehites to make a play on words at that already named location -- which could be interpreted by them in a limited number of ways.

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

S. Kent Brown, "Nahom and the 'Eastward' Turn," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 12:1 (2003)

I long ago reviewed  Vernal Holley, Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look (Ogden: Zenos Publ., 1983), and found it to be a pastiche of wild and irresponsible assumptions.  One major problem was his use of modern maps to create the list you present here, failing to understand that many of the names came into existence after the time of Joseph Smith.  Many others do not actually resemble the Book of Mormon names, and some are simply biblical names.  Precisely the sort of product you might expect from a yokel.  Of far greater interest is a professional assessment of the full scope of Book of Mormon names, especially those which are defined within the text.  How was Joseph able to get those right?  See the discussion on this board at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/7219-bom-name-similarities-in-the-vernal-holley-maps/ .  FairMormon also has a worthwhile review of it:  http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/Place_names_from_North_America .

See L. Ara Norwood, "Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look," FARMS Review of Books, 1/1 (1989):80-88, online at http://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=msr .  Holley also came out with a 3rd ed.  (1992).

[MormonVideoGame]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There was no way that Joseph Smith Jr could have known about the true nature of ancient South Arabia, nor of the fact of areas along the coast matching the description of Bountiful -- and the direction they turned to get there.  Minimalists always try to ignore the combined facts.

I agree! but both of you don't seem to understand probability and cognitive biases. 

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There are many (not thousands) of inscriptions in the area, but only three have the NHM on them, and they just happen to come from just the right place and time.  

Again, in that right place and time there are thousands of inscriptions, so finding NHM is not impressive. That place with a lot of inscriptions happens to be "nearly westward" from "Bountiful".  

I bet there is a decent chance to find the word "LDS" in Hebrew from that same area.  

http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=42&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=86&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=0

Anyways, turning "nearly eastward" to Bountiful is not specific at all, see my example above . 

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I long ago reviewed  Vernal Holley, Book of Mormon Authorship: A Closer Look (Ogden: Zenos Publ., 1983), and found it to be a pastiche of wild and irresponsible assumptions.  One major problem was his use of modern maps to create the list you present here, failing to understand that many of the names came into existence after the time of Joseph Smith.  

I agree, it was just an example of confirmation bias. 

Edited February 20, 2017 by MormonVideoGame

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said:

I bet there is a decent chance to find the word "LDS" in Hebrew from that same area.

What does LDS mean in Hebrew?

How many Semitic inscriptions with NHM standing alone can you find circa 1830 on maps that would correspond to the directions that Nephi gave?

Why don't you play "Texas Sharpshooter" for us and take some maps of Arabia (or anywhere else) that were available in 1830 showing names that could have the NHM root, then build a plausible narrative for Nephi's journey. This is not to prove that Nephi's narrative is "true" or "historical." I just would like to see if anyone can take the "Texas Sharpshooter" approach and prove that there are many possibilities. If you can fins just one "bullseye" other than the one from the Book of Mormon, you would have a point.

 

Glenn

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Thanks. How do I remove formatting? I just tried it again and my Interpreter linked post is still not appearing. These are somewhat lengthy posts and so I would like them to remain posted.

When you quote something, at the bottom of the post a thin blue banner appears with a question that says something along the lines of "remove format".  You just click on that and the font should become your standard font.

If you are just including a link and not cut/pasting anything, I don't know the problem.  Sometimes it may be a word in the link, but I can't imagine why Interpreter should be a problem. Let me know if only link is the issue and I will experiment.

[Atheist Mormon]

16 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 What he is saying makes sense because I haven't seen any evidence 

Imagine that.......You can afford this attitude because..... Nothing vital to your survival depends your inaction.... You can sit comfortably and wait until the evidence appears from tin air....as you expect...... 

In my case, couldn't wait......Unfortunately for me (or fortunately) I do have an acute symptom of ADHD (and suspect little bit of Autism.....). No criticism intended but....How you do this?

[Johnnie Cake]

17 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

Is it impressive to find NHM in a region (westward of Bountiful) that has thousands of ancient inscriptions?

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=42&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0

Another map 

http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=86&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=0

Elder B. H. Roberts said: “The power of the Holy Ghost … must ever be the chief source of evidence for the Book of Mormon. All other evidence is secondary. … No arrangement of evidence, however skillfully ordered; no argument, however adroitly made, can ever take its place.”

 What he is saying makes sense because I haven't seen any evidence 

 

 

NHM was one of those proofs that kept me in the fold...then I came across information that debunked it.  I was crushed...but accepted that I couldn't cling to it to support my ever diminishing testimony.  That was years ago...and to be honest, I can't even remember what the argument was, just that it debunked it enough to satisfy my need.  I'm guessing it was a dialogue article on the subject

[Darren10]

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

 from the "valley which he called Lemuel", not Jerusalem.  "it would take at least a few "many days" travel." from Jerusalem? I would say at least many weeks. 

Anyways, "for many days" "south-southeast" and "eastward" still doesn't say much!  

Let's use your descriptions in a USA map. If I tell you to look for a state that is "nearly a south-southeast" from North Dakota, then make a "nearly eastward" turn to Va, NC, or SC (There are many Bountiful candidates). In which city or state did you make a nearly eastward turn?  It's hard to know which state, let alone a city! 

That is a possibility, but all you doing is speculating. Book of Mormon never says Nahom means "mourning".  

Are you talking about the Old World? Nahom is the only place (outside of the Bible) that wasn't named by Lehi, do you disagree? Examples please.  

The Mormon Interpreter are Mike Ash are not academic Journals, and whether NHM is a burial site or not is totally irrelevant because the Book of Mormon never says "Nahom" is a burial site, or that it means "to mourn". All you doing is speculation, speculation is NOT impressive. 

You keep ignoring that finding NHM in a place where there are thousands of inscriptions in NOT impressive. 

 

 

If it's not impressive then by all means show me where else NHM  inscriptions are to be found. 

Unlike VA and NC, there really is only one area I know of that is acceptable to be Bountiful and that area is nearly due East of  where the "non impressive" NHM inscriptions are found.