MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Darren10 said: If it's not impressive then by all means show me where else NHM inscriptions are to be found. Let me try one last time. Is it hard to find NHM in a region that has more than 10 thousand inscriptions? That same region is westward of "bountiful". The coincidence is that "bountiful" is westward from that region that is rich in ancient inscriptions. Please see my example below. 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: What does LDS mean in Hebrew? How many Semitic inscriptions with NHM standing alone can you find circa 1830 on maps that would correspond to the directions that Nephi gave? Why don't you play "Texas Sharpshooter" for us and take some maps of Arabia (or anywhere else) that were available in 1830 showing names that could have the NHM root, then build a plausible narrative for Nephi's journey. This is not to prove that Nephi's narrative is "true" or "historical." Why 1830 maps? It very clear that Joseph Smith didn't use a map! Very very clear. But since you mention Texas I will look in Texas. In San Antonio, Texas there is a place called "Jerusalem". Now if you go "South-southeast direction" (1 Ne 16:13) from Jerusalem there is a city named Nordheim, TX (almost fits NHM if it wasn't for "rd"). Go "eastward (1 Ne 17) you end up in a Bountiful-like place, a forest next to the sea. It's called San Bernard National Wildlife. It only took me less than 10 minutes for this! It's not hard at all to find similarities. Now remember, NHM inscription refers to a tribe, not a cemetery. Honestly, this map is better, that is perfectly "southeast" and "eastward". I can do the same thing in any region of the world, just name it! but I don't have the time so I probably won't. Here is a satellite image Edited February 21, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
Glenn101 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 45 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: Let me try one last time. Is it hard to find NHM in a region that has more than 10 thousand inscriptions? That same region is westward of "bountiful". The coincidence is that "bountiful" is westward from that region that is rich in ancient inscriptions. Please see my example below. Why 1830 maps? It very clear that Joseph Smith didn't use a map! Very very clear. But since you mention Texas I will look in Texas. In San Antonio, Texas there is a place called "Jerusalem". Now if you go "South-southeast direction" (1 Ne 16:13) from Jerusalem there is a city named Nordheim, TX (almost fits NHM if it wasn't for "rd"). Go "eastward (1 Ne 17) you end up in a Bountiful-like place, a forest next to the sea. It's called San Bernard National Wildlife. It only took me less than 10 minutes for this! It's not hard at all to find similarities. Now remember, NHM inscription refers to a tribe, not a cemetery. Honestly, this map is better, that is perfectly "southeast" and "eastward". I can do the same thing in any region of the world, just name it! but I don't have the time so I probably won't. Here is a satellite image So, anytime you find a name Jerusalem, no matter where, no matter when, it counts? And anyplace you find the letters, NHM in a word, no matter what the word, it counts? That is reductionism to the point of absurdity. I thought that you were stretching it a bit with your first posts, but there is no point in debating since you are making your own rules and ignoring the rules of linguistics.
Rajah Manchou Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 5 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I bet there is a decent chance to find the word "LDS" in Hebrew from that same area. Well, there you go. If you can find the word "LDS" in that same area then you have proved your point. That there are so many inscriptions that you can find anything you want. If you can't find LDS in any of those inscription, then it suggests that there is at least something interesting in finding NHM around where it would be predicted. Let us know what you find. 1
PeterPear Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: One must never take a single item in isolation as evidence of anything. It must fit into the larger context, the Incense Trail, rich South Arabia, Nahom, Bountiful, etc. That said, Nahom is most likely a biblical Hebrew place-name in qal infinitive absolute form,[1] *Nāḥôm “Comfort, Consolation[2]; Mourning; Moan,” as the Book of Mormon burial place of Lehi’s friend Ishmael – whose daughters “did mourn exceedingly” (1 Nephi 16:35).[3] Such a theoretical etymology is adequate in itself. However, nearby there is in fact an ancient South Arabian proper name Nhm/Nihm on three ca 800-700 B.C. limestone altar inscriptions at the Barʼan temple near Marib (capital of ancient Sabaʼ), in the Yemen; Nihm is the name of a still extant and large Yemenite tribe, within whose territory there was an extensive cemetery in Yemen, 100 miles east of Luhaiya and 25 miles south of Sanˁa, the current capital of the Yemen.[4] This may have been the place which “was called Nahom” and familiar to the Lehites (1 Nephi 16:34), thus indicating that it was an already existing place-name (Hugh Nibley).[5] It may very well be that the Lehites used the informal Hebrew equivalent of the term as vocalized by local ancient South Arabians, whose vocalization is today unknown to us. Moreover, there are two different consonants in these words: the medial -h- of this Arabic term is a glottal fricative, whereas the medial -ḥ- of the Hebrew term is a pharyngeal fricative,[6] i.e., soft -h- versus aspirated -ḥ-. Ancient Hebrew word-play was frequently based on just such similarity of sound, and we have numerous such instances (Noah, Moses, etc.) The Hebrew root nḥm (with aspirated -ḥ-) is also the source of the proper name Naḥûm “Comfort[7]; Consoler[8]; Consolation, Compassion,”[9](Jo Ann Hackett, John Tvedtnes, Ed Ashment), which is also the name of the prophetic biblical book (KJV Nahum) – a root which is also used as proper name Nĕḥûm “Mourning” in Nehemiah 7:7; John Tvedtnes),[10] where it appears along with proper names NeḥemeYāh “Yahweh-comforts”[11] (KJV Nehemiah), and Naḥamānî (= Syriac Nḥmʼ il), also built on the same Hebrew root. The same Semitic root, meaning “to console, comfort; have compassion,” appears as a Phoenician proper name Nḥmy, an Amorite PN Ynḥm, a PN in Ugaritic as mYa-an-ḫa-mu, etc., a PN in the Amarna Letters as Yanḫamu, and in Dynasty 18 Egyptian PN lists as Yanḥam – all of which James Hoch takes to be a qal jussive or indicative, possibly meaning “May he be comforted; May He have compassion (divine name).”[12] [1] Which, Ed Ashment notes, is not used in the Bible in that exact form, but see Job 2:11 lěnaḥămô “comfort, consolation”; cf. Bennett, Comparative Semitic Linguistics, 102 [2] LDS Book of Mormon, 1981 ed., note to 16:34b, “HEB probably ‘consolation,’ from verb naham, ‘be sorry, console oneself’,” cited by M. Ladd, And He Spake Unto Me (2011), 130, including a lexical entry from the Blue Letter Bible at Strong’s #05163. [3] Reynolds & Sjodahl, CBM, I:170; John Tvedtnes, “Hebrew Names in the Book of Mormon,” in G. Khan, et al., eds., Encyclopedia of Hebrew Language and Linguistics, 4 vols. (Brill, 2013), online at http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/browse/encyclopedia-of-hebrew-language-and-linguistics . [4] R. Christensen, Ensign 8/8 (Aug 1978):73; J. Tvedtnes, “Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon,” 1994 FARMS Book of Mormon Lecture, 13; J. Tvedtnes, “Hebrew Names in the Book of Mormon,” 3, citing especially the discussion by Kent Brown, “‘The Place That Was Called Nahom’: New Light from Ancient Yemen,” Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, 8/1 (1999):66-68; Warren P. Aston, “The Origins of the Nihm Tribe of Yemen: A Window into Arabia's Past,” Journal of Arabian Studies: Arabia, the Gulf, and the Red Sea, 4/1 (2014): 134-148, online at https://www.academia.edu/13256024/The_Origins_of_the_ Nihm_Tribe_of_Yemen_A_Window_into_Arabias_Past ; see also the forthcoming discussion by Robert Boylan. [5] Nibley, LID, 90-91. Nibley also compares Modern Arabic naḥama “to mourn,” and naḥuma “graveyard,” Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon, 4 vols. (FARMS/Deseret, 1993; Covenant Communications, 2004), I:192, citing Warren & Michaela Aston on the graveyard at NHM in the Yemen – cf. W. P. Aston in JBMS 10/2 (2001):56-61,71; S.K. Brown in JBMS 8/1 (1999):66-68. [6] Bennett, Comparative Semitic Linguistics, 8. [7] Cathcart in Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:998, “a well attested NW Semitic name” (citing Cathcart in Journal of Northwest Semitic Languages 7:1). [8] LDS “Bible Dictionary,” 736, in 1979 Holy Bible. [9] D. Christensen in Achtemeier, ed., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 681. [10] Nehemiah 7:7 BHS note Neḥum = Reḥum in Ezra 2:2. [11] Ackroyd, “Nehemiah, the Book of,” in Achtemeier, ed., Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 694. [12] Hoch, Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts, 53 #54. How convenient! How convenient for Ishmael to not die until Lehi's group arrived at the Land of NHM - "within whose territory there was an extensive cemetery in Yemen, 100 miles east of Luhaiya and 25 miles south of Sanˁa..." Hey Daddy! We know you're old and tired and you've been suffering in the Wilderness for lo these many months. But please don't die yet! See down there in the Wadi-NHM? Yep, right over there, under the third star to the left and the second star to the right straight on until morning! To NeverNeverNHMLand! There's a large extensive cemetery just waiting for you to die in. So, please don't die until we get there. It's only about 3500 kilometers-cubits or a half-day journey. And when we get there there will be people with food and water to help revive you, but please die anyway because it will make it really convenient for some LDS Apologists in the year 2017 AD - who don't use logic - to believe there has to be a place in the Arabia Peninsula with a large extensive cemetery for you to be conveniently buried in. Because you can't be buried in the desert because there are no cemeteries in the wilderness and no one can dig a grave where there's a desert full of dirt - especially when you're in the desert on a horse with no name, cause in the desert there ain't no one to give you no name. La la LA, la la-la-la! Ok Daddy? Seriously, Robert F. Smith. Did Ishmael wait to die until they arrived in the land called Nahom because it had cemeteries? Edited February 21, 2017 by PeterPear Typos
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: NHM was one of those proofs that kept me in the fold...then I came across information that debunked it. I was crushed...but accepted that I couldn't cling to it to support my ever diminishing testimony. That was years ago...and to be honest, I can't even remember what the argument was, just that it debunked it enough to satisfy my need. I'm guessing it was a dialogue article on the subject The NHM correlation has never been debunked. I have examined the sources carefully through the years and have never found a legitimate claim against it. That is not to say that some off-the-wall argument was made which could convince someone who is poorly informed. That happens all the time in the debate over the credibility of the BofM and other issues. One needs to step back and ask hard questions not only about this item, but about many other related items. One needs a deeper sense of perspective, something which MormonVideoGame lacks in his haste to debunk. Edited February 21, 2017 by Robert F. Smith 1
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Glenn101 said: So, anytime you find a name Jerusalem, no matter where, no matter when, it counts? In 10 minutes I searched and created a map to imitate Lehi's trail. I did it in Texas because you told me Texas! 1 hour ago, Glenn101 said: but there is no point in debating since you are making your own rules and ignoring the rules of linguistics. LOL LOL Read Matthew 7:3 1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said: Well, there you go. If you can find the word "LDS" in that same area then you have proved your point. That there are so many inscriptions that you can find anything you want. If you can't find LDS in any of those inscription, then it suggests that there is at least something interesting in finding NHM around where it would be predicted. Let us know what you find. I doubt I am going to look for it, I am no Arabian scholar.
Darren10 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 2 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Let me try one last time. Is it hard to find NHM in a region that has more than 10 thousand inscriptions? That same region is westward of "bountiful". The coincidence is that "bountiful" is westward from that region that is rich in ancient inscriptions. Please see my example below. Why 1830 maps? It very clear that Joseph Smith didn't use a map! Very very clear. But since you mention Texas I will look in Texas. In San Antonio, Texas there is a place called "Jerusalem". Now if you go "South-southeast direction" (1 Ne 16:13) from Jerusalem there is a city named Nordheim, TX (almost fits NHM if it wasn't for "rd"). Go "eastward (1 Ne 17) you end up in a Bountiful-like place, a forest next to the sea. It's called San Bernard National Wildlife. It only took me less than 10 minutes for this! It's not hard at all to find similarities. Now remember, NHM inscription refers to a tribe, not a cemetery. Honestly, this map is better, that is perfectly "southeast" and "eastward". I can do the same thing in any region of the world, just name it! but I don't have the time so I probably won't. Here is a satellite image "Let me try one last time. Is it hard to find NHM in a region that has more than 10 thousand inscriptions? " Robert F. Smith said there are three. Yes, it is impressive to suceed in a 3/10,000 chance scenario. What do you think?
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, PeterPear said: Seriously, Robert F. Smith. Did Ishmael wait to die until they arrived in the land called Nahom? just like Cinemasins
Marmonboy Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 Wait, you are no Arabian scholar, but you have cleared up the whole NHM debate for us with a Google map? Now THAT'S some serious scholarship! 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, PeterPear said: How convenient! How convenient for Ishmael to not die until Lehi's group arrived at the Land of NHM - "within whose territory there was an extensive cemetery in Yemen, 100 miles east of Luhaiya and 25 miles south of Sanˁa..." Hey Daddy! We know you're old and tired and you've been suffering in the Wilderness for lo these many months. But please don't die yet! See down there in the Wadi-NHM? Yep, right over there, under the third star to the left. There's a large extensive cemetery just waiting for you to die in. So, please don't die until we get there. It's only about 3500 kilometers-cubits or a half-day journey. And when we get there there will be people with food and water to help revive you, but please die anyway because it will make it really convenient for some LDS Apologists in the year 2017 AD - who don't use logic - to believe there has to be a place in the Arabia Peninsula with a large extensive cemetery for you to be conveniently buried in. Because you can't been buried in the desert because there are no cemeteries in the wilderness and no one can dig a grave where there's a desert full of dirt - especially when you're in the desert on a horse with no name, cause in the desert there ain't no one to give you no name. La la LA, la la-la-la! Ok Daddy? Seriously, Robert F. Smith. Did Ishmael wait to die until they arrived in the land called Nahom? Hi Pete. Despite your sarcasm, it is really immaterial to me whether Ishmael died at Nahom or at any other place during their trek. What should catch our attention is the Hebrew wordplay which Nephi uses in describing the event. Only someone who knows Hebrew could do that, or become aware of it, and Joseph Smith did not know Hebrew. One sees this sort of thing (paranomasia) in the Bible all the time, but it is not always apparent to the reader unless he knows Hebrew. The Book of Mormon frequently does the same thing. 2
Darren10 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) Can VideoGame or anyone else point to me where the fertile places are in the Arabian Penninsula? How did Joseph Smith know where it was? How did Joseph Smith know the Fankincense trail? Why do the Frankincense Trail and Lehi's Trail, according to the modern-day, non-impressive, 3/10,000 chance to be plausible match so neatly? (Weird format, eh? ) Edited February 21, 2017 by Darren10
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 14 minutes ago, Marmonboy said: Wait, you are no Arabian scholar, but you have cleared up the whole NHM debate for us with a Google map? Now THAT'S some serious scholarship! I don't have to be a scholar to understand math, probability, and cognitive biases. 11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: What should catch our attention is the Hebrew wordplay which Nephi uses in describing the event. It's just speculation, the Book of Mormon never claims Nahom means "to mourn". Is Nahom a city? tribe? an empire? cemetery? Book of Mormon never clarifies that! All you are doing is speculation.
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 1 minute ago, Darren10 said: How did Joseph Smith know where it was? You know I am done! Please read about cognitive biases and a book called "The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives" by Leonard Mlodinow https://www.amazon.com/Drunkards-Walk-Randomness-Rules-Lives/dp/0375424040/ref=pd_sim_14_2/157-1617607-2140819?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=68HKZ5VRFT67H590X553
Darren10 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) VideoGame; Quote Honestly, this map is better, that is perfectly "southeast" and "eastward". I can do the same thing in any region of the world, just name it! but I don't have the time so I probably won't. Upstate New York. That's perhaps the only real "map" Joseph Smith was familiar with until after the translation of the Book of Mormon. When you're done, try the far East. Somewhere in China please. Thanks. Edited February 21, 2017 by Darren10
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 27 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: . I have examined the sources carefully through the years and have never found a legitimate claim against it. I recommend The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives by Pantheon Books https://www.amazon.com/Drunkards-Walk-Randomness-Rules-Lives/dp/0375424040/ref=pd_sim_14_2/157-1617607-2140819?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=68HKZ5VRFT67H590X553
Darren10 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, MormonVideoGame said: You know I am done! Please read about cognitive biases and a book called "The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives" by Leonard Mlodinow https://www.amazon.com/Drunkards-Walk-Randomness-Rules-Lives/dp/0375424040/ref=pd_sim_14_2/157-1617607-2140819?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=68HKZ5VRFT67H590X553 Ummmmm, no. I'm a terribly slow reader and I want to read Gardner's new book looooooooooooooooong before I even consider the Drunkard's book.
Darren10 Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 The way of the drunkard is perhaps not as reliable as VideoGame may think. Here's internet proof...
PeterPear Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Hi Pete. Despite your sarcasm, it is really immaterial to me whether Ishmael died at Nahom or at any other place during their trek. What should catch our attention is the Hebrew wordplay which Nephi uses in describing the event. Only someone who knows Hebrew could do that, or become aware of it, and Joseph Smith did not know Hebrew. One sees this sort of thing (paranomasia) in the Bible all the time, but it is not always apparent to the reader unless he knows Hebrew. The Book of Mormon frequently does the same thing. Most people who know of Joseph Smith's story and testimony are very well aware he did not know Hebrew when hewas a young man who had no formal education while translating the Book of Mormon. LDS Apologists - as I'm quite aware - are educated with a formal education - with a purpose to defend the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church. But to claim the land with inscriptions of NHM found in it, is the "land called Nahom" in the Book of Mormon - because it has "extensive cemeteries" because Ishmael died in Nahom - is a fallacy that LDS Apologists with formal educations should not be using. Would you agree? And what would be the name of the fallacy? "The cart before the horse?" "Falling over one's feet in excitement?" "Putting one foot in the grave and another in your mouth?" Didn't Dr. Hugh Nibley opine they traveled without fire to help them avoid desert mauraders and thieves? And NOW NHM is the Land called Nahom because NHM was located with a lot of people who would have given them food and water and a cemetery plot? Can't the Land called Nahom just be a lonely unknown spot in the Arabian desert where Ishmael became sick and died with no inhabitants - because the Book of Mormon never mentions Lehi's group ever met anyone? And thus no wordplay is not even required? Or must LDS Apologists promote a fallacy because they're more educated formally than Joseph Smith Jr. ever was?
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 8 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I agree! but both of you don't seem to understand probability and cognitive biases. Again, in that right place and time there are thousands of inscriptions, so finding NHM is not impressive. That place with a lot of inscriptions happens to be "nearly westward" from "Bountiful". Clan Lehi left Jerusalem in 597 B.C. Eight years later they arrived at Bountiful, after meandering slowly down the coast and then crossing the Yemen. Very few inscriptions predate that time, and the large corpus of later inscriptions (until 6th century A.D.) is irrelevant. Perhaps both of you don't really "understand probability and cognitive bias." 8 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: I bet there is a decent chance to find the word "LDS" in Hebrew from that same area. http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=42&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0 http://dasi.humnet.unipi.it/index.php?id=86&prjId=1&corId=0&colId=0&navId=0 I don't know what you mean by "decent chance," but I suppose that one could come up with a lot of meaningless three-letter Hebrew roots by scanning the Appendix to Strong's Concordance. However, in the event, there is no such LDS Hebew root. Problem with "probability and cognitive bias" again? It might be better to simply take a name from an actual text and do the proper linguistic research on it. That is how scholars proceed. 8 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said: Anyways, turning "nearly eastward" to Bountiful is not specific at all, see my example above . I agree, it was just an example of confirmation bias. Of course it is not specific enough for you, because you immediately remove it from its context, ignoring the place Nahom at which they made that turn, and ignoring the destination "Bountiful." That is the inevitable destination, since (unbeknownst to Joseph) the south Arabian coast looks just like Bountiful. Indeed, the most likely area along that coast is Khor Kharfot “Kharfot Inlet” (at the mouth of Wadi Sayq in Oman), Kherfut being an archaic Mahri term meaning something like "Abundant," which is a synonym for Bountiful. See Warren P. Aston, “Arabia’s Hidden Valley: A Unique Habitat in Dhofar Captures Arabia’s Past,” Wildlife Middle East News (WME), 6/4 (March 2013):2-4, online at http://www.wmenews.com/newsletters/1366812925wmenews _V6_I4_eng.pdf . By the way, Warren Aston will be speaking this March 18 at the Book of Mormon Conference being held at the Utah Valley Convention Center in Provo. https://bookofmormoncentral.org/content/bmaf-2017 . See you there? 2
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: I don't have to be a scholar to understand math, probability, and cognitive biases. It's just speculation, the Book of Mormon never claims Nahom means "to mourn". Is Nahom a city? tribe? an empire? cemetery? Book of Mormon never clarifies that! All you are doing is speculation. Among scholars paranomasia is considered learned speculation, and it is done all the time by biblical scholars. Why? Because that is the nature of biblical literature. We should expect it occasionally. If it were not present, we should even become suspicious. Sometimes it is explicit, as in naming conventions to suit the occasion. In others it is less obvious. In the Book of Mormon we have, for example, names like Rabbanah and Rameumptom which are defined in the text, and which just happen to mean the actual definitions provided. What are the odds of that happening by coincidence? In other cases, a place-name like Jershon can be readily understood by any Hebraist as "Inheritance," and several instances of obvious wordplay confirm that supposition. You can't see it, because you have an apriori bias against anything not already known to you. This results in automatic rejection of scholarship. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, PeterPear said: Most people who know of Joseph Smith's story and testimony are very well aware he did not know Hebrew when hewas a young man who had no formal education while translating the Book of Mormon. LDS Apologists - as I'm quite aware - are educated with a formal education - with a purpose to defend the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church. But to claim the land with inscriptions of NHM found in it, is the "land called Nahom" in the Book of Mormon - because it has "extensive cemeteries" because Ishmael died in Nahom - is a fallacy that LDS Apologists with formal educations should not be using. Would you agree? And what would be the name of the fallacy? "The cart before the horse?" "Falling over one's feet in excitement?" "Putting one foot in the grave and another in your mouth?" Didn't Dr. Hugh Nibley opine they traveled without fire to help them avoid desert mauraders and thieves? And NOW NHM is the Land called Nahom because NHM was located with a lot of people who would have given them food and water and a cemetery plot? Can't the Land called Nahom just be a lonely unknown spot in the Arabian desert where Ishmael became sick and died with no inhabitants - because the Book of Mormon never mentions Lehi's group ever met anyone? And thus no wordplay is not even required? Or must LDS Apologists promote a fallacy because they're more educated formally than Joseph Smith Jr. ever was? You revel in the apriori fallacy here, Pete, along with your obvious hatred for anyone who doesn't share your apriori views. One does not need to be a scholar to look at a text inductively and logically. Above, for example, you misquote the text. There is no "land called Nahom." The proper quote is "the place which was called Nahom." Note the passive voice. You are so hasty to find fault that you can't even get the quotation correct. Try reading calmly and without apriori notions, and please try avoiding the introduction of extraneous factors -- just for the sake of sarcasm. You extreme hatred is sadly coloring all your comments.
Robert F. Smith Posted February 21, 2017 Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, MormonVideoGame said: I recommend The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives by Pantheon Books https://www.amazon.com/Drunkards-Walk-Randomness-Rules-Lives/dp/0375424040/ref=pd_sim_14_2/157-1617607-2140819?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=68HKZ5VRFT67H590X553 I recommend that you stay on point: The claim by Johnnie was that the Nahom issue was effectively debunked in the past. I haven't seen it. Have you? If it is so easily debunked, why haven't you been able to come up with any substantive argument against it? 1
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Clan Lehi left Jerusalem in 597 B.C... Very few inscriptions predate that time CFR It took me seconds to find Corpus of Ḥaḍramitic Inscriptions "includes about 900 inscriptions which date from between the 7th century BC and the end of the 3rd century AD" Just one example. Bythway, any non-Mormon sources that NHM inscription really dates to 600 BC? 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: You can't see it, because you have an apriori bias against anything not already known to you. This results in automatic rejection of scholarship. what you talking about? I do want eternal families and live forever. but just because I want all that doesn't mean it's going to happen. 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: However, in the event, there is no such LDS Hebew root. Problem with "probability and cognitive bias" again? It might be better to simply take a name from an actual text and do the proper linguistic research on it. That is how scholars proceed. Is Nahom a city? a farm? an empire? a cemetary? a village? a tribe? Do you agree the Book of Mormon never clarifies that? Please show me unbiased studies that prove NHM is related to Nahom. Do you agree NHM is a tribe? Why would a tribe call itself "to mourn"? 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: In other cases, a place-name like Jershon can be readily understood by any Hebraist as "Inheritance," and several instances of obvious wordplay confirm that supposition. You seem to be cherry-picking your cases. The Book of Mormon contains 337 proper names and 21 gentilics. Hebraism doesn't seem to be hard to find Hebraism in Solomon Spalding's manuscript "clothed themselves in cloth" (p. 21) "colored with different colors" (p. 21) "by the hand of Lobaska" (p. 43) "our meat and our fish" (p. 12) "The King and his chiefs and many of his principal subjects" (p. 19) "their armies routed & their warriors bleeding under our swords -- their helpless women and children expiring by thousands & their country in flames" (p. 77) "a defence which will extend to our wives and our children . . . . We must either submit to behold our property torn from us, our houses in flames -- & our dearest friends expiring" (p. 86) "My father . . . and my only brother . . . . my father and my brother . . . . my father and my brother (p. 88) "finish with your spears and your swords" (p. 90) effaced by the ravages of time" (p.1) "united by the solemn covenant of marriage" (p. 58) "blinded by the sordid advice of a menial junto of Councilors & priests" (p. 65) "surprise occasioned by the story of the flight" (p. 65) "Undaunted by the cruel demand & haughty menace of the Sciotan government" (p. 72) "beloved by the subjects of the empire of Kentuck" (p. 92) "exhausted by the fatigues of a most bloody contest" (p. 94) "prevented by the arrival of Hamboon" (p. 101) "encircled by the walls of a fort" (p. 102) "destroyed by the cruel sword of Sambal" (p. 112) Hebrew Evidence in Ancient American Records http://www.strangite.org/Chiasmus.htm Anyways, it's just a change of goal post. My original point: It is not impressive to find NHM in a area that is rich of ancient inscriptions. Edited February 21, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
MormonVideoGame Posted February 21, 2017 Author Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: In other cases, a place-name like Jershon can be readily understood by any Hebraist as "Inheritance," and several instances of obvious wordplay confirm that supposition. Alma 27:22 And it came to pass that the voice of the people came, saying: Behold, we will give up the land of Jershon, which is on the east by the sea, which joins the land Bountiful, which is on the south of the land Bountiful; and this land Jershon is the land which we will give unto our brethren for an inheritance. Really? I was expecting more than that. The word Jershon appears 20 times in the Book of Mormon, but only one verse (verse 22) mentions inheritance. 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: In others it is less obvious. In the Book of Mormon we have, for example, names like Rabbanah and Rameumptom which are defined in the text, and which just happen to mean the actual definitions provided. CFR that Rabbanah means "powerful or great king" and Rameumptom means "the holy stand" Please show me evidence published in academic papers that Nahom means "to mourn". Edited February 21, 2017 by MormonVideoGame
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