Nephi's Son -- Did He Really Exist?

[Uncle Dale]

Was the "son of Nephi" a fictional character?

If I recall correctly, it was in early 1990 that the late Vernal Holley
called my attention to a "remarkable experience" he had in the BYU
Lee Library a short time before. In his own words, he had "seen the
original Nephi," in a display case there.

Vern's "experience" didn't register on my thoughts very heavily at the
time. At his insistence I added a note to an old Swedenborgian Periodical
which he'd given me to share on-line:




There I repeated Vern's communication to me:

>"Daniel Guilford Wait's 1823 'Jewish, Classical, and Oriental Antiquities,'
>states on page 277: The Book of Ibn-Nephi has the following verse:
>'And God appointed him [Enoch] a prophet, and caused to descend to
>him thirty books; and he inherited the books of Seth, and the Ark of Adam...
>Ibn Nephi writes, 'But Adris [Enoch], who is Hermes (peace be unto him!)
>was the first after Seth who wrote with a pen, and Adris was deeply imbued
>with piety and religion from his youth upwards... And God appointed him to
>be a prophet and delivered to him thirty books. He inherited also the books
>which Seth composed and the Tebet [ark] of Adam..."

What I didn't repeat in that footnote, was what Vern told me verbally" That
in the Lee Library, he'd seen an old book opened to a page upon which
BOTH Nephi and Enoch were mentioned, 200 years before the publication
of the Book of Mormon. Since he did not know the name of the author, nor
the title of the book, it seemed rather pointless to mention that experience
in the Swedenborgian article's footnote.

Recently, however, I came across the 1989 "Friends of the Brigham Young
University Newsletter" no. 33, and belatedly realized what book Vern had
seen. The purported ancient "Nephi" was actually "ibn Nephi," an Arabic
term for a "son of Nephi." And the book was Athanasius Kircher's 1652-65
"Oedipus Aegyptiacus."

 

But who was this reported Babylonian rabbi, the son of Nephi? Kircher and
his contempories refer to him as ibn Nephi, Aben Nephi, Abbenephi, ibn Nefi,
Abenephii, Abenephius and/or Barachias Nephi, etc. Did he really exist? And
how did his purported writings end up in a mid-17th century book on Egypt?
And who was this Kircher, who seems to have been the ONLY scholar who
ever had direct access to the Babylonian rabbi's manuscripts?


In Dr. Hugh Nibley's 1968 "Prolegomena to Any Study of the Book of Abraham," he wrote:

>...the most remarkable of these [early scholarly writers] was the learned Jesuit Athanasius Kircher (1601-1680)
>who deserves mention because his name has often been mentioned in studies of Joseph Smith. Indeed when some
>of the Egyptologists who condemned the prophet in 1912 later talked things over among themselves in Chicago,
>they came to the conclusion that Smith could best be explained as another Athanasius Kircher and some Egyptologists,
>notably E. A. W. Budge, even maintained that Joseph Smith actually got his ideas in the Book of Abraham from Kircher.
>But if Joseph Smith ever saw one of Kircher's books on Egypt, which is doubtful since even in his day those books
>had become exceedingly rare collectors items...


A non-Mormon had a somewhat different opinion, however.

Clyde R. Forsberg, in his 2010 "Esotericism and the Coded Word," compared Joseph
Smith with Athanasius Kircher, by referring to some parallels he found in Erik Hornung's
2001 "The Secret Lore of Egypt." -- In Forsberg's opinion, "Kircher, like Smith, filled in
the blanks, restoring 'missing portions of obelisks and the like,' and even drafting 'new
hieroglyphic inscriptions... and others of his own devising.'"


On the other hand, Kerry Muhlestein, writing about "European Views of Egyptian Magic
and Mystery," for the fall 2004 issue of "BYU Studies," remarked:

>Kircher... was considered one of the greatest scholars of his time... [but] He came to
>believe, incorrectly, that he could decipher hieroglyphs and that they concealed the
>philosophical lore of ancient Egypt. He reconciled these beliefs with his Jesuit views by
>finding a godly character in Egyptian lore: he interpreted Hermes Trismegistus, a
>Grecified and transmogrified version of the Egyptian god Thoth, as a prophet who had
>invented hieroglyphs... Kircher was following the work of earlier writers such as the
>antique work Asclepius, which notes that Trismegistus prophesied of Christ...

What Muhlestein left out of that report, was that Kircher compared the biblical Enoch
to the Egyptian inventor of hieroglyphs -- calling upon his fictional "ibn Nephi" to supply
the fact (?) that although Enoch inherited divine writings from Adam and Seth, it was
Enoch himself who first wrote holy scripture, long before the Hebrew Torah was composed.
Kircher also used his fictional rabbi "ibn Nephi," to introduce a fragment of the (then) "lost"
Greek "Book of Enoch." The text thus supplied elucidated the heirarchy of angels and the
pretension that some angels could mate with human beings, giving rise to gigantic offspring,
the "Nephilim." In fact, it is evident that Kircher borrowed a version of the singular form
of that word to fabricate his rabbi "ibn Nephi" -- the ONLY such Nephi reported to have
existed in Near Eastern antiquity.

In the 1989 "Friends of the Library" publication entitled "Athanasius Kircher... An
Exhibition of his Works in the Harold B. Lee Library...," it says on pages 22-23:

>"Oedipus Aegyptiacus," Kircher's largest and most astounding work...
>In the remainder of part 1, Kircher expounds [Egyptian] mysteries and
>their affinities with the writings of Hermes Trismegistus, Zoroaster, Orpheus,
>Proclus, Plato, Psellus, the Alexandrian Fathers, the Greek myths, the Book
>of Enoch, and the Chaldean Oracles.

Although this is a fair summary, it does not cover Kircher's incorporation of Muslim
theological lore concerning Enoch (called Idris or Edris in the Koran) and his role
in the supposed invention of writing. Had Kircher cared to provide additional details
he might well have identified Enoch as the prophetic head of one of the seven
divine religious dispensations, commencing with Adam and ending with Mohammed.
Strangely enough, this parallel with LDS theology is rarely mentioned, even by those
writers familiar with Muslim and Mormon dispensationalism.

In more recent times historians have generally reached the conclusion that Kircher's
"son of Nephi" was his own invention. Kircher created the mysterious Babylonian
rabbi in order to lend support and authority to his own speculative ideas regarding
history, languages, religion, etc.

If anybody is familiar enough with Arabic texts, to help me translate Kiecher's
"son of Nephi" excerpt into English, I'd appreciate the help.

UD

[Tacenda]

I'm not at all familiar with Arabic texts, but your post is an interesting subject. That this was looked at by stalwart members and no shaken faith came about. Why when I read it, I think Joseph used this and completed the books. Didn't he study the Koran and Kabbalism?

[Duncan]

he does exist, I hung out with him last week, heck of a bowler too

[Robert F. Smith]

Was the "son of Nephi" a fictional character?

If I recall correctly, it was in early 1990 that the late Vernal Holley

called my attention to a "remarkable experience" he had in the BYU

Lee Library a short time before. In his own words, he had "seen the

original Nephi," in a display case there.

.....................................................................................  

There I repeated Vern's communication to me:

>"Daniel Guilford Wait's 1823 'Jewish, Classical, and Oriental Antiquities,'

>states on page 277: The Book of Ibn-Nephi has the following verse:

>'And God appointed him [Enoch] a prophet, and caused to descend to

>him thirty books; and he inherited the books of Seth, and the Ark of Adam...

>Ibn Nephi writes, 'But Adris [Enoch], who is Hermes (peace be unto him!)

>was the first after Seth who wrote with a pen, and Adris was deeply imbued

>with piety and religion from his youth upwards... And God appointed him to

>be a prophet and delivered to him thirty books. He inherited also the books

>which Seth composed and the Tebet [ark] of Adam..."

I remember reading and analyzing Vernal Holley's work on Book of Mormon geography around 40 years ago.  It was slapdash and slipshod to the Nth degree, with nothing at all to recommend it.  Old habits die hard.

 

......................................................

Recently, however, I came across the 1989 "Friends of the Brigham Young

University Newsletter" no. 33, and belatedly realized what book Vern had

seen. The purported ancient "Nephi" was actually "ibn Nephi," an Arabic

term for a "son of Nephi." And the book was Athanasius Kircher's 1652-65

"Oedipus Aegyptiacus."

 

........................................................................

But who was this reported Babylonian rabbi, the son of Nephi? Kircher and

his contempories refer to him as ibn Nephi, Aben Nephi, Abbenephi, ibn Nefi,

Abenephii, Abenephius and/or Barachias Nephi, etc. Did he really exist? And

how did his purported writings end up in a mid-17th century book on Egypt?

And who was this Kircher, who seems to have been the ONLY scholar who

ever had direct access to the Babylonian rabbi's manuscripts?

In Dr. Hugh Nibley's 1968 "Prolegomena to Any Study of the Book of Abraham," he wrote:

>...the most remarkable of these [early scholarly writers] was the learned Jesuit Athanasius Kircher (1601-1680)

>who deserves mention because his name has often been mentioned in studies of Joseph Smith. Indeed when some

>of the Egyptologists who condemned the prophet in 1912 later talked things over among themselves in Chicago,

>they came to the conclusion that Smith could best be explained as another Athanasius Kircher and some Egyptologists,

>notably E. A. W. Budge, even maintained that Joseph Smith actually got his ideas in the Book of Abraham from Kircher.

>But if Joseph Smith ever saw one of Kircher's books on Egypt, which is doubtful since even in his day those books

>had become exceedingly rare collectors items...

A non-Mormon had a somewhat different opinion, however.

Clyde R. Forsberg, in his 2010 "Esotericism and the Coded Word," compared Joseph

Smith with Athanasius Kircher, by referring to some parallels he found in Erik Hornung's

2001 "The Secret Lore of Egypt." -- In Forsberg's opinion, "Kircher, like Smith, filled in

the blanks, restoring 'missing portions of obelisks and the like,' and even drafting 'new

hieroglyphic inscriptions... and others of his own devising.'"

On the other hand, Kerry Muhlestein, writing about "European Views of Egyptian Magic

and Mystery," for the fall 2004 issue of "BYU Studies," remarked:

>Kircher... was considered one of the greatest scholars of his time... [but] He came to

>believe, incorrectly, that he could decipher hieroglyphs and that they concealed the

>philosophical lore of ancient Egypt. He reconciled these beliefs with his Jesuit views by

>finding a godly character in Egyptian lore: he interpreted Hermes Trismegistus, a

>Grecified and transmogrified version of the Egyptian god Thoth, as a prophet who had

>invented hieroglyphs... Kircher was following the work of earlier writers such as the

>antique work Asclepius, which notes that Trismegistus prophesied of Christ...

What Muhlestein left out of that report, was that Kircher compared the biblical Enoch

to the Egyptian inventor of hieroglyphs -- calling upon his fictional "ibn Nephi" to supply

the fact (?) that although Enoch inherited divine writings from Adam and Seth, it was

Enoch himself who first wrote holy scripture, long before the Hebrew Torah was composed.

Kircher also used his fictional rabbi "ibn Nephi," to introduce a fragment of the (then) "lost"

Greek "Book of Enoch." The text thus supplied elucidated the heirarchy of angels and the

pretension that some angels could mate with human beings, giving rise to gigantic offspring,

the "Nephilim." In fact, it is evident that Kircher borrowed a version of the singular form

of that word to fabricate his rabbi "ibn Nephi" -- the ONLY such Nephi reported to have

existed in Near Eastern antiquity.

----------------------------------------------------------

Father Kircher did no such thing.  Hebrew Nephilim (Gen 6:4, Num 13:33) is not the plural of Nephi.  They are completely unrelated words, and Nephi is not even Hebrew.

 

Moreover, Nephi, Nefi, Nafi, etc., is a common Arabic name, and there have been plenty of Nephis in antiquity.  Even today, there is an Al Qaida terrorist group in Tunisia called the "Uqba ibn Nafi Brigade," named for the famous Arab General from Mecca who conquered North Africa in the 7th century A.D. (Uqba son of Nafi bin Abd Al Qays, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckxU15PRAqI).  I covered an Arabic meaning for Nefy on page 147 of my “Book of Mormon Event Structure: Ancient Near East,” FARMS Preliminary Report/Study Aid, SMI-84 (Provo: FARMS, 1985/1986), published in JBMS, 5/2 (1996):98-147.  Online at http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=5&num=2&id=126 .  Cf. Encyclopedia Britannica, 2006, 403, Nāfiʼ; Lisle M. Phillipps, In the Desert (London: Edward Arnold, 1905), 230, “Okba ibn Nefi.”  There is also a photo on Facebook of Nefy Bin Abdul Basheer at  https://m.facebook.com/mohammed.nafeel.988 .  Plenty more on the internet, and not hard to find.

 

The Arabic pages you provided do not contain the name of ibn Nefi, although I did find Idris, Satan, and Allah.

[mfbukowski]

How did they get him into the display case ?

[Robert F. Smith]

How did they get him into the display case ?

I'll ask my mummy.  

[mfbukowski]

I'll ask my mummy.  

LOL. Oh gosh, painful!

[Hillel2]

I'm not at all familiar with Arabic texts, but your post is an interesting subject. That this was looked at by stalwart members and no shaken faith came about. Why when I read it, I think Joseph used this and completed the books. Didn't he study the Koran and Kabbalism?

Very interesting! I believe a copy of the Qur'an in English was available at the library that Joseph Smith frequented as a young man. However, I do not recall anywhere (and i could be wrong) a mention of a "nephi" (or anything that could be construed as a variation on that name) popping up in the Qur'an.

 

As for Qabbalah, i had thought that Joseph Smith's exposure to (really bits and pieces of) the tradition came after the publication of the BOM?

 

The most interesting postulation i've heard on the word "nephi" is that it might be a variation of the Egyptian word "nefr" meaning "good" or "beautiful," hence,"I Nephi, being of goodly parents" (?) would be something of a pun.

[Uncle Dale]

Very interesting! I believe a copy of the Qur'an in English was available at the library that Joseph Smith frequented as a young man. However, I do not recall anywhere (and i could be wrong) a mention of a "nephi" (or anything that could be construed as a variation on that name) popping up in the Qur'an.

 

As for Qabbalah, i had thought that Joseph Smith's exposure to (really bits and pieces of) the tradition came after the publication of the BOM?

 

The most interesting postulation i've heard on the word "nephi" is that it might be a variation of the Egyptian word "nefr" meaning "good" or "beautiful," hence,"I Nephi, being of goodly parents" (?) would be something of a pun.

 

 

Joseph Smith's next door neighbor in Manchester later recalled

that young Joe had read the Koran and knew something about

religious polygamy at a young age.

 

Dr. John Stafford was the neighbor, and had a close association

with the Smith family. His cousin, Gadius Stafford, was reported

to have been a follower of Joseph even before the publication

of the Book of Mormon. I see no reason to assume that John was

telling a lie, in recalling Smith's familiarity with an English version

of the Muslim holy book.

 

But there is nothing in the Koran itself, nor in any English Preface,

or Introduction then available, which would have included anything

relating to Kircher's "ibn Nephi."

 

Kircher was at least familiar enough with Arab tradition and language

(in its similarity to Hebrew, which he knew) in order to assign the

word "ibn" to his fictional creation -- a "bar Nephi" or a "ben Nephi,"

would have been a Hebrew/Aramaic impossibility.

 

If there really were Arabs of the remote past named Nafi or Naffi, I'd

have to ask what that meant, as a description. Arabian names usually

had a traditional meaning -- parents did not name their kids "air," or

"water," or "fan," or "sieve," or some such meaningless descriptor.

 

At any rate, Nephi certainly isn't a Hebrew name, nor even a Hebrew

word. According to an authority on Hebrew and Aramaic names:

 

>...the root NPY is not attested in Biblical Hebrew. In post-Biblical Hebrew,

>NPY exists only in a causative form, and means to sift or fan...

>napa is a sieve or fan. Otherwise, the form is nowhere attested.

>This same word exists in post-Biblical Aramaic, with the same meanings,

>but the root does not exist in Syriac Aramaic nor ancient Arabic.

>So linguistically, Nephi is not a personal name

 

Perhaps there were Arabian Nafis or Naffis in antiquity. Or, perhaps

Kircher was merely familiar with a similar-sounding near eastern

name from his own era. At any rate, in order to make "ibn Nephi"

sound at all authentic, Kircher had to make that fictional Jewish

historian an Arab. There are (were?) of course, Arab Jews. My

wife's ancestors lived among them in 18th century Yemen. But

I doubt very, very much, that there was ever a Jewish Nephi,

either in 600 BCE or in Kircher's purported Babylon of 600 CE.

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

“Okba ibn Nefi.” There is also a photo on Facebook of Nefy Bin Abdul Basheer at https://m.facebook.c...mmed.nafeel.988 .

Plenty more on the internet, and not hard to find.

The Arabic pages you provided do not contain the name of ibn Nefi, although I did find Idris, Satan, and Allah.

Interesting, Robert. If this early ibn Nefi was in Egypt (and if

he had any Jewish ancestry or relatives) -- then he might have

stuck in Kircher's mind, when trying to come up with a fictional

authority on the meaning of Egyptian writing.

What is the Arabic root for this ibn Nephi's given name?

Thanks for the info.

UD

ps - oh, and by the way, do you know anybody who can

render a reliable English translation of those two Kircher

pages' purportedly quoting Abbenephi?

[Uncle Dale]

ps - oh, and by the way, do you know anybody who can

render a reliable English translation of those two Kircher

pages' purportedly quoting Abbenephi?

 

Actually, I'd be happy to to obtain a transliteration into 

Roman letters, so that I could run the text through an

on-line translation service.

 

I'm curious to know whether the Arabic truly represents

c. 600 writings, or, if the language is a modern attempt

at mimicking ancient Arabic. Kircher spoke several 

languages, but he never traveled to the Near East  and

never studied Semitic languages under a native speaker

who was an expert on their ancient forms. So, I suspect

the Kircher's "Abbenephi" excerpt will betray its origin.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

.............................................................................   

The most interesting postulation i've heard on the word "nephi" is that it might be a variation of the Egyptian word "nefr" meaning "good" or "beautiful," hence,"I Nephi, being of goodly parents" (?) would be something of a pun.

It is true that Nfr "Beautiful, Good," is a common ancient Egyptian proper name and name-element, and the word-play opportunities are there (just as you say), and you can read the arguments for that in John Gee, JBMS, 1/1 (1992):189-190, and n. 11, citing Ranke, Ägyptische Personennamen, I:194.  Based on Aramaic and Hebrew forms of the name of the ancient Egyptian capital city, one might even suggest (pure speculation) that Nephi was a "Memphite," perhaps so named since he may have been born there.  As Egyptologist Donald Redord (Toronto) points out:

 

“With the Egyptian Empire of the New Kingdom, Memphis had become the seat of a Canaanite community of merchants and mercenaries centered upon the temples of Baˁal and Astarte (Helck 1966).  During the final days of Judah, Memphis received exiles fleeing the advance of the Babylonians (Jer 44:1),” in D. N. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, IV:690; cf. Y. Muchiki, Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in NW Semitic, 231.  

 

However, I personally prefer ancient Egyptian Nfy "Captain," a known name-element.  For, not only does Nephi build and captain his ship under divine guidance, but he is constantly referred to as a Aruler@ (1 Nephi 2:22, 3:29, 16:37-38, 18:10, 2 Nephi 5:19, Jacob 1:9), as well as Aking@ (1 Nephi 16:38, 2 Nephi 5:18), his name becoming, in fact, a title accorded each successive king (Jacob 1:11), and the Achief city@ of the land of Nephi being called ANephi@ (Alma 47:20).  Nor should we miss the remarkable opportunities for paronomasia, when, as Askipper,@ Nephi alone can successfully Aguide the ship@ (1 Nephi 18:22; cf. 1 Nephi 18:12, 2 Nephi 1:24), and when he is bound and the ship is driven helplessly before the wind (Egyptian nf, nfw Awind@ = Coptic nife; and Egyptian nfw, nfy, nfi Ablow; breathe; fan@), only his prayers can bring safety (1 Nephi 18:8-10,12,21-22; cf. 2 Nephi 1:25,27).

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................

. At any rate, in order to make "ibn Nephi"

sound at all authentic, Kircher had to make that fictional Jewish

historian an Arab. There are (were?) of course, Arab Jews.

Great Jewish scholars living in Arabia spoke Arabic and used ibn regularly, just as American Jews speak English and take on English names.

 

Today, most Israeli Jews are descended from ancestors who lived in Islamic lands.  They are called Sephardic Jews.

 

My wife's ancestors lived among them in 18th century Yemen. But

I doubt very, very much, that there was ever a Jewish Nephi,

either in 600 BCE or in Kircher's purported Babylon of 600 CE.

.......................................................

There is no rational reason why either option might not be the case, except as an apriori judgment.

[Robert F. Smith]

Interesting, Robert. If this early ibn Nefi was in Egypt (and if

he had any Jewish ancestry or relatives) -- then he might have

stuck in Kircher's mind, when trying to come up with a fictional

authority on the meaning of Egyptian writing.

...................................................

As it happens, the Classical Arabic period was one of great Muslim scholarship, including the decipherment of ancient Egyptian by Arab scholars -- something lost to time, and not available in Champollion's day.  So Kircher may have been on to something, but just couldn't bring it to fruition.

[Uncle Dale]

As it happens, the Classical Arabic period was one of great Muslim scholarship, including the decipherment of ancient Egyptian by Arab scholars -- something lost to time, and not available in Champollion's day.  So Kircher may have been on to something, but just couldn't bring it to fruition.

 

 

What little scholarship I've consulted on the fellow, gives

me the impression that he was a self-centered egotist,

who enjoyed "showing off" more so than producing

genuine, useful linguistic and historical studies.

 

That much said, he was obviously a genius and a capable

learner. At one point a Cardinal who had been chief librarian

in the Vatican helped Kircher gain access to otherwise

unavailable ancient texts, inscriptions, etc. Who know what

that sort of research might have come across?

 

Still, his invention of "the son of Nephi" was an unforgivable

lapse of judgment -- such sophistry calls into question the

guy's entire body of work.

 

I'd really like to get a transliteration (better yet, a translation)

of the excerpts Kircher attributed to "ibn Nephi" in both his

Coptic study and his Oedipus-in-Egypt study. If you are not

friends with anybody who could help out, at least keep my

request in mind -- in case you come across a translator.

 

I'm particularly interested in chasing down Kircher's sources

on the Patriarch Enoch and the invention of writing. John Dee,

in England, a little earlier, was saying similar things -- and, of

course, the Freemasons embellished the whole topic greatly

in the development of Royal Arch degrees.

 

I'm curious to find of if Kircher ever attributed the oversight of

a "dispensation" to Enoch, or if he hinted in that direction, in

regard to Idris/Edris/Adris.

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

Today, most Israeli Jews are descended from ancestors who lived in Islamic lands.  They are called Sephardic Jews...

 

.

Still, I  suppose that an actual tribal Arab, practicing the Jewish religion,

was a rarity. For one thing, it meant disowning Ishmael as the inheritor

of Abraham's blessings (and the land of Palestine, of course). I'm told

that the Arab claim to the land pre-dates Mohammed (though he may

have popularized the idea that Isaac and Jacob "stole" the land from

the rightful heirs).

 

That much said, one of my wife's father's grandfather's was an Arab --

an actual, born in the Negev, lived in a tent, Arab. Conversion to Judaism

was a rarity then (late 19th century) but now and then it happened -- in

his case, because he desired to marry a certain Jewish girl, I'm told.

 

Anyway, he had to flee for his life to Cyprus. The act was a capital crime,

both under Sharia and under Turkish military law (he was a private in

the Ottoman Army). Once settled among Jews in America, he was not

well accepted. His kids were considered "half-Jews" and only during the

generation of my wife's father, was the "blood taint" forgotten.

 

As I mentioned earlier, one branch of my wife's ancestors relocated

from hostile Spain to their ancestral homeland, back in Yemen. There

they lived among people who were ethnically Arab -- but whose ancestors

had never accepted Islam. I don't know their story, although I'm told that

it parallels that of the Sabians. -- But, now they seem to have died out.

 

UD

[Robert F. Smith]

.

Still, I  suppose that an actual tribal Arab, practicing the Jewish religion,

was a rarity. For one thing, it meant disowning Ishmael as the inheritor

of Abraham's blessings (and the land of Palestine, of course). I'm told

that the Arab claim to the land pre-dates Mohammed (though he may

have popularized the idea that Isaac and Jacob "stole" the land from

the rightful heirs).

................................................................

You are confused, Dale.

Many Jews have lived in Arab lands without being Arabs.  Many tribal Jews lived in South Arabia and the Yemen and lived similarly to the Muslims.  Indeed, many Jewish tribes lived in the neighborhood of Mecca and Medina in the days of Mohammed.  When Mohammed demanded that they all convert to Islam, they refused.  There was a war over the matter, the Jews lost and the Jewish men were all executed.  Their women and children were immediately taken over by the Muslim men and were never allowed to be Jewish thereafter.  This pattern was repeated during the great Muslim conquest, and many ethnic associations lost forever.

 

Frequently in Palestine, whole towns and tribes of Jews were forcibly converted to Islam, and became Arabic speakers.  After several centuries, such genealogies are largely forgotten.

 

Your concept of Ishmael is quite beside the point.

[Uncle Dale]

...

Your concept of Ishmael is quite beside the point.

Dunno.

My wife's ancestor was from the Negev, so possibly didn't

even claim descent from Ishmael -- maybe from Esau, or

Lot, Midian, or some such forgotten patriarch.

Evidently Moab and Edom were conquered by the

Macabees and the inhabitants converted to Judaism.

If so, my wife's "Arab" ancestor may have been called

that, primarily because he spoke Arabic and honored

Arab customs.

Can one be a proper Arab, without any descent from

Ishmael? Perhaps so.

UD

Edited April 30, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Robert F. Smith]

Dunno.

My wife's ancestor was from the Negev, so possibly didn't

even claim descent from Ishmael -- maybe from Esau, or

Lot, Midian, or some such forgotten patriarch.

Evidently Moab and Edom were conquered by the

Macabees and the inhabitants converted to Judaism.

If so, my wife's "Arab" ancestor may have been called

that, primarily because he spoke Arabic and honored

Arab customs.

Can one be a proper Arab, without any descent from

Ishmael? Perhaps so.

UD

That's the ticket.

[Uncle Dale]

That's the ticket.

When I lived on Saipan, the local (only) newspaper was edited

by a guy named Younis, who traveled on an Israeli passport.

He was an Arab Christian -- none of his near relatives had

ever been Muslims.

So, I don't suppose he have a rat's behind as to whether or not

God gave Palestine to Hagar's son -- he would never have a

permanent inheritance there, whether Jews or Muslims ran

the government.

Still, I wonder now whether or not his tribe (clan?) claimed

descent from Ishmael. Probably so -- even if cultural

anthropologists rely on other means of ethnic differentiation.

I once mentioned something to him about Independence,

and my ties to that place. I neglected to say that God had

given Jackson County (and Daviess County?) to Ephraim,

or even that my tribe was that son of Joseph's -- he probably

would have thought me crazy, to claim a hunk of Kansas City

as my birthright.

UD