Mark Alan Wright Book Of Mormon/Mesoamerica Fireside On Sunday

[Hashbaz]

The illustrious* Dr. Mark Alan Wright (Visiting Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU; PhD, Mesoamerican Archaeology, UC Riverside, 2011) will be giving a presentation about archaeology and the Book of Mormon at the Long Beach East Stake Center (4142 Cerritos Ave, Los Alamitos, CA 90720) at 7pm on August 21st. I'm not sure if the fireside is supposed to be geared only towards YSA or not, but I know many older married folks will be there as well. It's virtually the same presentation I've given here in Utah a couple of times, so no need to book flights if you've already seen it. As it happens, I address many of the issues Coe raised in his recent podcast, but it will not be a direct response or a point-by-point rebuttal in any way. If any of you are able to attend, please come and introduce yourself!

*according to my wife

[Brant Gardner]

So you don't give me any more forewarning than that?! How am I supposed to mount any kind of rebuttal by then!

Wish I could be there.

[Hashbaz]

So you don't give me any more forewarning than that?! How am I supposed to mount any kind of rebuttal by then!

Wish I could be there.

If you were there I'd probably just hand the mic to you and let you give the fireside!

[Brant Gardner]

If you were there I'd probably just hand the mic to you and let you give the fireside!

Well, that would disappoint a lot of people, including me.

[mfbukowski]

The illustrious* Dr. Mark Alan Wright (Visiting Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU; PhD, Mesoamerican Archaeology, UC Riverside, 2011) will be giving a presentation about archaeology and the Book of Mormon at the Long Beach East Stake Center (4142 Cerritos Ave, Los Alamitos, CA 90720) at 7pm on August 21st. I'm not sure if the fireside is supposed to be geared only towards YSA or not, but I know many older married folks will be there as well. It's virtually the same presentation I've given here in Utah a couple of times, so no need to book flights if you've already seen it. As it happens, I address many of the issues Coe raised in his recent podcast, but it will not be a direct response or a point-by-point rebuttal in any way. If any of you are able to attend, please come and introduce yourself!

*according to my wife

I live in a neighboring stake and will make sure it gets publicized- I wouldn't miss it. Unfortunately, all it shows on our stake calendar is "YSA Fireside LBE Stake Center" and the address.

[Kenngo1969]

The illustrious* Dr. Mark Alan Wright (Visiting Professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU; PhD, Mesoamerican Archaeology, UC Riverside, 2011) will be giving a presentation about archaeology and the Book of Mormon at the Long Beach East Stake Center (4142 Cerritos Ave, Los Alamitos, CA 90720) at 7pm on August 21st. I'm not sure if the fireside is supposed to be geared only towards YSA or not, but I know many older married folks will be there as well. It's virtually the same presentation I've given here in Utah a couple of times, so no need to book flights if you've already seen it. As it happens, I address many of the issues Coe raised in his recent podcast, but it will not be a direct response or a point-by-point rebuttal in any way. If any of you are able to attend, please come and introduce yourself!

*according to my wife

Where have you presented in Utah, and why wasn't I invited?! (Hope you'll post the announcement here the next time you present in Utah ...)

P.S.: I'm sure your wife is absolutely right!

[Hashbaz]

Where have you presented in Utah, and why wasn't I invited?! (Hope you'll post the announcement here the next time you present in Utah ...)

P.S.: I'm sure your wife is absolutely right!

They've mostly been ward or stake firesides at or around BYU, but I've done them up in Ogden and down in St. George as well. I'm happy to speak as often as I'm invited and when my schedule permits.

[Joseph Antley]

I met Mark today, super nice guy. Wish I could go to California!

[Chris Smith]

I enjoyed meeting you at the symposium, Mark. Sorry I'll be missing your fireside, it sounds interesting!

[Hashbaz]

Chris and Joseph, nice meeting both of you. And Chris, I really enjoyed your presentation; well done!

[Daniel Peterson]

Break a leg, Hashbaz!

Or something like that, or not like that.

[Bill Hamblin]

Break a leg, Hashbaz!

Or something like that, or not like that.

I take it you want him to break both of his legs?

Or is this a FARMS-style offer you can't refuse?

[Daniel Peterson]

Stop the comparisons of FARMS to the Mafia. They're too true.

You'll make some of the critics nervous, and that renders them harder to catch.

[Olavarria]

How did it go?

[Chris Smith]

oops, wrong thread

Edited August 22, 2011 by Chris Smith

[mfbukowski]

It was a wonderful fireside, enough to actually get this old linguistic constructivist interested in actual evidence for the BOM which I had no clue existed. I felt that "evidence" was irrelevant, so I never personally invested any time in seeking it out- but Mark definitely has a genius for noticing and documenting Mayan iconographic evidence with Book of Mormon parallels.

I don't know how he does that. It would be like memorizing two different jigsaw puzzles- one is Mayan culture and the other is the BOM- and he sees how the pieces fit somehow. recalling apparently irrelevant details from each and putting them together in an elaborate picture.

As he says, the argument is "death by a thousand cuts"- each little parallel might be interesting independently, but when the totality of it is put together, it all becomes quite a convincing case.

He also gave some hints at some tantalizing articles he is planning. It really was a pretty remarkable fireside, with a long Q&A session at the end.

Excellent stuff

Edited August 22, 2011 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Oh-

And he says Bokovoy does killer barbecue.

[Hashbaz]

It was a wonderful fireside, enough to actually get this old linguistic constructivist interested in actual evidence for the BOM which I had no clue existed. I felt that "evidence" was irrelevant, so I never personally invested any time in seeking it out- but Mark definitely has a genius for noticing and documenting Mayan iconographic evidence with Book of Mormon parallels.

I don't know how he does that. It would be like memorizing two different jigsaw puzzles- one is Mayan culture and the other is the BOM- and he sees how the pieces fit somehow. recalling apparently irrelevant details from each and putting them together in an elaborate picture.

As he says, the argument is "death by a thousand cuts"- each little parallel might be interesting independently, but when the totality of it is put together, it all becomes quite a convincing case.

He also gave some hints at some tantalizing articles he is planning. It really was a pretty remarkable fireside, with a long Q&A session at the end.

Excellent stuff

It was great meeting you! Glad you could make it.

[mfbukowski]

It was great meeting you! Glad you could make it.

It really did change my perspective on the BOM considerably- so as I understand you, you see the Nephites as perhaps a culture integrated into the larger sphere of Mayan culture perhaps almost as we LDS are integrated into our respective international cultures- the "Lamanites" being those we might see as "in the world"- kind of an "us v.s. them" perspective?

Did I get that part close to right?

Edited August 22, 2011 by mfbukowski

[cinepro]

He also gave some hints at some tantalizing articles he is planning. It really was a pretty remarkable fireside, with a long Q&A session at the end.

Sadly, I was compelled to attend a Seminary fireside and couldn't attend. It sounds like it was very interesting.

So, did any "heartlanders" make an appearance during the Q&A?

[Hashbaz]

It really did change my perspective on the BOM considerably- so as I understand you, you see the Nephites as perhaps a culture integrated into the larger sphere of Mayan culture perhaps almost as we LDS are integrated into our respective international cultures- the "Lamanites" being those we might see as "in the world"- kind of an "us v.s. them" perspective?

Did I get that part close to right?

Yep, that's a pretty good summary of how I see it.

[Hashbaz]

So, did any "heartlanders" make an appearance during the Q&A?

I had a couple of questions about the moundbuilders and I had to burst one guy's bubble about the Bat Creek stone, but as far as I could tell there were no hard-core heartlanders in the crowd.

[Olavarria]

Can we(east coast people) get a basic outline of what you generally share in firesides?

[coolrok7]

I also attended the lecture but with a different conclusion than a Mormon would come to as I believe the Mormonism of Joseph Smith is heretical/not really Christian at its core over the years I’ve been investigating his claims.

I was there mainly to listen and wasn’t making any attempt to engage in conversation except to say hi to the few that had greeted me.

In my perspective it’s not about being “holier than thou” or putting anyone down (those that I have strong disagreement with Biblically speaking) for their beliefs but a concern for the truth of the word of God and how it applies to not only me but others along my path).

Bottom line for me is that the totality of the story of Mormonism (this would go for all belief systems that are Biblically flawed in the context of what they say they have to offer) is inconsistent with the Jesus Christ of Biblical Revelation at critical points that is not necessarily observable to the uninformed (due to ignorance and or deception) as a lot of the same terms are used but with a different meaning behind them.

We can agree on a lot of things but it boils down to where we are in disagreement (the BofM being one of them as a primary instrument or tool used to distort Biblical teaching, I believe one of the many spiritual deceptions of the “god of this world”).

I think I might have seen you mfBukowski. In our past phone conversation several months ago you didn’t seem to really want to continue with me so I didn’t approach you or who at least the one I thought could have been you (the person I was looking at seemed to be looking my way often as well or at least that was my perception).

A Mesoamerican Archaeologist’s Perspective was the title of the slide show. He subtitled his talk as “It’s never too late”. He also remarked that, “we don’t know where Zarahemla is” among other times just saying this is not really proof for the BofM or something to that affect.

I really don’t give credence to the claim of having golden plates (the story of having to give the plates back is unconvincing that there were physical plates involved and rather convenient). Joseph was already telling stories before he even had the plates according to the story told by his mother:

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them.

On the twenty-second of September, 1824, Joseph again visited the place where he found the plates the year previous; and supposing at this time that the only thing required, in order to possess them until the time for their translation, was able to keep the commandments of God—and he firmly believed he could keep every commandment which had been given him—he fully expected to carry them home with him. (History of Joseph Smith, By His Mother, Lucy Mack Smith, 1958, p.83)

The witness’s testimony to me is not credible (in certain elements) of the story being told in which parts of their personal belief on the surface is contradictory to certain Biblical teaching.

In a court of law (during discovery before the case is tried), testimony is gathered from the eyewitnesses to the events/information in question. Documentation is also collected/screened.

The trial then begins and eventually a judgment is rendered based on the evidence collected/presented. I screen what I read/hear through the Bible which to me is the final arbiter

While the slide show was interesting from a cultural historical perspective, I still don’t see where it is much different from any other culture in history when it comes to religious belief/practice and how it relates to the society/culture at large.

Spiritually speaking, I can see how it would influence the faith of a Mormon in their belief in the BofM but as he said there is really no direct tie into the proving of the area that he supposed are BofM lands purported to be in Mesoamerica although he tends to believe it is.

I had also attended a lecture on BofM “evidence” by Dr. Peterson back in 1988 (Earlier in the day I attended a local area conference in which Dallin Oaks of the “Twelve Apostles” was present at the Pond in Anaheim) over off the 605 freeway at a Ward on Pioneer Blvd.

Not persuasive to me based on what I already knew as a Christian believer (nothing against Dr. Peterson as a person as he is very likeable person except for the Mormonism part of his testimony).

I would think that the tower of Babel is the Biblical explanation in the similarities of the ancient cultures and its religious practices which doesn’t surprise me at all but still interesting nonetheless. The fall of man was universal and affected even the Mayans and other cultures of our historical past.

Before the lecture, I was there somewhat early and overheard the different conversations which said a lot to me about earlier observations at other wards over the years of attending either on my own or by invitation.

It reflected to me that Mormons, like any other groups of religious belief, have their way of getting their digs in at others they would be in disagreement with on their own turf that most don’t hear. I’ve heard plenty since I’ve been attending Mormon chapels since 1979 which tend to confirm my suspicions.

Mark Alan had made a comment about how neat it was to get paid for doing something he loves and going home and getting a paycheck for a few hours work. His actual comment in part was, “it smacks of priest craft, honestly”.

It’s not Biblically wrong getting paid (what I think Mormons have in mind by the idea of “priest craft) for working in a pastoral context of Ephesians 4 (as Mark Alan made his comment for getting paid to do church related work) it does seem to be a bit hypocritical in what I’ve heard over the years from Mormons themselves in the conversations I’ve heard or have taken part in:

Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. (1 Corinthians 9:13-14)

Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. (1 Timothy5:17-18)

Back in the 90’s I worked with a lady, she worked in the print room (she was Irish and had been catholic until she married a Mormon man and became one). She of course invited me to attend her Ward as a lot of Mormons do.

I asked her if she had been to the temple and she said she was eventually planning on going but hadn’t as of that time (Some time later I attended her funeral (they didn’t have the body there) at her Ward in Newport Beach, a company invite was extended). I don’t think she ever got her temple recommend or at least that I knew of.

I arrived that particular Sunday after being invited and must have had the times mixed up as her and her husband were getting ready to leave. I stuck around a little while as the next chapel was about to begin.

The music director led the choir in an opening song. After the song he made a comment in passing of how wonderful it was to have such beautiful singing without getting paid for it.

I believe in the context of how he said it, it was a dig at the Crystal cathedral (Schuler) as they, the performers of the Christmas/ Easter pageants they put on as some are paid for the performances (not all are I don’t think).

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of people in church choirs getting paid for singing as it is usually volunteer work as church members in which they gladly participate.

[Hashbaz]

Glad you could attend. Just a couple of points of clarification on some of the comments I made:

1. He subtitled his talk as “It’s never too late”

2. Mark Alan had made a comment about how neat it was to get paid for doing something he loves and going home and getting a paycheck for a few hours work. His actual comment in part was, “it smacks of priest craft, honestly”.

1. My presentation wasn't actually subtitled "It's never too late"; it was a YSA fireside, and at the beginning I felt inspired to share my own story of getting a little bit of a later start in marriage and education than others, and I encouraged anyone who felt they were struggling not to give up hope and not to fear taking chances in life. I hadn't planned on starting that way, and it was wholly unrelated to the rest of my presentation.

2. To be clear, I wasn't paid to give the fireside. I bought my own gas, slept on my brother's futon, and paid for my own food the whole trip. The comment about priestcraft was made in jest and was in direct reference to my employment as a professor in the Ancient Scripture dept at BYU, and the message I was trying to convey was that I love my job so much that I'm not doing it for the paycheck. I cracked a lot of jokes that night since I was surrounded by friends and family (it was in my old home stake center, hosted by my old singles ward).