A question about 3 Nephi 20:27-28

[GoCeltics]

“And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel. And they shall be a scourge unto the people of this land. Nevertheless, when they shall have received the fulness of my gospel, then if they shall harden their hearts against me I will return their iniquities upon their own heads, saith the Father”.

Upon which Gentiles was the Holy Ghost poured upon to scatter God’s people?

Is this a unique occurrence or does it apply to other instances of scatterings?

[Pyreaux]

The Babylonian Conquest of Judah (Jeremiah 25:8–9):

“Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words, I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations.’”

God called on Nebuchadnezzar as an instrument of divine judgment. All acts of Babylon were portrayed as the fulfillment of prophetic warnings from Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc.

Assyrian Conquest of Israel (2 Kings 17:12; Isaiah 10:5–6):

Israel was conquered by Assyria for sins against the Lord by worshiping other gods of Assyria (2 Kings 17:12)

“Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath! I send him against a godless nation…”

These aren't the only times. Deuteronomy 32:21 implies that just as Israel provoked God with foreign gods, He will provoke them by sending foreign nations as a kind of poetic justice.

If that is wild, what might really cook you brain is if you study the Old Testament language and imagery you'll see neighboring deities were involved in God's judgment on Israel. 

The Council of gods (Psalm 82:1; Exodus 15:11) are national deities, sometimes rebellious, sometimes aligned. Like Daniel 10:13, where the celestial “Prince of Persia” was able to oppose the Lord God of Israel (the unnamed guardian angel of Israel), who is forced to call upon Michael for aid. These "watchers", "holy ones", "the gods" under the "Most High" God make decrees for Babylon (Daniel 4:17).

Ezekiel occasionally uses language of cosmic judgments involving princes, cherubs, and ancient gods (in Ezekiel 28 and 31–32). These chapters conflate powerful nations as spiritual or mythic beings, suggesting that behind the nations and these gods are forces under God’s control... when not rebelling.

Edited May 18, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

“And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel. And they shall be a scourge unto the people of this land. Nevertheless, when they shall have received the fulness of my gospel, then if they shall harden their hearts against me I will return their iniquities upon their own heads, saith the Father”.

Upon which Gentiles was the Holy Ghost poured upon to scatter God’s people?

Is this a unique occurrence or does it apply to other instances of scatterings?

The chosen people have been scattered repeatedly, always for disobedience.  It has been very hard on the chosen people, but a blessing to the nations (gentiles), and every exile ends with a gathering.  When the times of the gentiles have been fu1filled this time around, the chosen people return once more, never to be exiled again (Romans 11).  It's called the Latter-days.

[GoCeltics]

On 5/17/2025 at 2:29 PM, Pyreaux said:

“Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words, I will summon all the peoples of the north and my servant Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations.’”

Did someone lay hands on Nebuchadnezzar to receive the Holy Ghost or did the pouring upon him come directly from God?

[GoCeltics]

On 5/17/2025 at 2:29 PM, Pyreaux said:

Like Daniel 10:13, where the celestial “Prince of Persia” was able to oppose the Lord God of Israel (the unnamed guardian angel of Israel), who is forced to call upon Michael for aid

Where do you see a guardian angel in Daniel 10:13 and him being forced to call upon Michael for help?

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Where do you see a guardian angel in Daniel 10:13 and him being forced to call upon Michael for help?

Daniel sees a "man" (in the apocalyptic code: a divine being) dressed in linen, in 10:1-9, many Christian commentators, especially the early church, identified this being as the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, the Lord. Other scholars just refer to him as 'the unnamed angel of Israel' protecting it, who speaks in 10:10-14, and it has been hindered by the devilish "prince of Persia" and summons Michael the Archangel for assistance. He possesses so much glory, Daniel gets overwhelmed and falls into a deep sleep before the angel reveals "what is inscribed in the book of truth." Like in other Apocalyptic books, is an angel whose name has largely been withheld, and in apocalypses, that is taken to means it's the ineffable name of the Lord. The same single, solitary angel that stood in the burning bush, the one sent before Israel who bears the ineffable name (Exodus 23).

He's also very similar to the angel of revelation – the angel who throws the golden censer of the seven archangels, who prepare to sound their seven trumpets. He is the "angel” who John worships twice. When John sees the transfigured glory of a "man" (Jesus) in the heavenly temple, he passed out, falls down "as dead". Jesus is the scribe of the Book of Life, "the man child" (apocalyptic code: the divine child), identified as Jesus, was in danger from a sea dragon, Michael came to his aid (Rev 12), the Word who possesses a secret name (Rev 19:12).

The Lord-Jesus, Lord himself, is often identified as the Angel of the Lord. In the Book of Judges, the term “angel of the Lord” is almost always “the Lord”. Judges says it was the “angel of the Lord” that slew the firstborn of Egypt (Judges 2:2), while the Mosaic accounts make it clear it was the Lord himself, and no one else (Exodus 12:12; Deuteronomy 32:35).

Manoah's wife sees a “man”, who turned out to be an “angel” whose name was a “secret”. Manoah offered the man food, but the man requested a burnt offering to the Lord. (Judges 13:16). When the man ascended into heaven, signaled to them the unnamed angel was Lord himself, they say, “we shall surely die, because we have seen God” (Judges 13:22). 

Edited May 19, 2025 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Did someone lay hands on Nebuchadnezzar to receive the Holy Ghost or did the pouring upon him come directly from God?

Well, I subscribe to a sort of broad royal-priesthood, a sacred-kingship ideology. A concept by which many if not all these rulers are anointed by a spirit and seen as an incarnation, manifestation, mediator, or agent of a sacred or holy being, such as a nation deity (Bel: the lord of Babylon) who is the subject of the King of the gods, Yhwh, the Lord of Israel. And that all these nation religions were totally connected with other kingdoms and in varying degrees connected with religious powers or religious institutions. In those times, there could be no kingdom that was not in some sense sacral. And their king was regarded and revered as a god or semi-god, under a god run kingdom. Thus, in Israel, they believe the anointing oil poured on these kings, is the essence of the Holy Spirit, to become a messiah ("anointed one"), which designates the kings and the priests, and even foreign kings (I Kings 19:15). It's not very explicit but implied that Nebuchadnezzar was a servant of God and was gifted with the power or inspiration, likely from the Holy Spirit, to defeat Judah. Like he did to other kings (Jeremiah 51:11-14).

Edited May 19, 2025 by Pyreaux

[halconero]

On 5/17/2025 at 7:30 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The chosen people have been scattered repeatedly, always for disobedience.  It has been very hard on the chosen people, but a blessing to the nations (gentiles), and every exile ends with a gathering.  When the times of the gentiles have been fu1filled this time around, the chosen people return once more, never to be exiled again (Romans 11).  It's called the Latter-days.

What's interesting to me is how those scattered for sin are not always the ones who are themselves sinning. I think it's reasonable to infer from the writings of Jeremiah and Ezekiel both that those taken into the first captivity (which occurred prior to the destruction of the first temple) were actually among the more righteous in the Kingdom of Judah. We can likewise see this in Lehi and his family, who were themselves scattered away from the covenant people and land to another one.

[Stargazer]

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[Robert F. Smith]

On 6/17/2025 at 10:54 AM, halconero said:

What's interesting to me is how those scattered for sin are not always the ones who are themselves sinning. I think it's reasonable to infer from the writings of Jeremiah and Ezekiel both that those taken into the first captivity (which occurred prior to the destruction of the first temple) were actually among the more righteous in the Kingdom of Judah. We can likewise see this in Lehi and his family, who were themselves scattered away from the covenant people and land to another one.

Yep.  It's complicated.  However, the rabbis have long told their own people that the reason for the Exile has been their own disobedience.  It is a communal, not individual thing.