Very interesting physics theory I am trying to wrap my head around….

[JVW]

On 5/2/2025 at 2:30 PM, The Nehor said:

They did consider it. Since it has no explanatory power and its predictions fail it is useless. There is no value in considering it. Hard science like physics doesn’t operate on vibes or whether the model is appealing or a favorite. It matters whether it works.

The math works for physics, idk if the model works. I know about as much about the model of General Relativity as I do the model of EU. I think the EU is flourishing in the spaces where the math and the model of General Relativity don't fit together, but don't quote me on that.

On 5/2/2025 at 2:30 PM, The Nehor said:

They would be shut down unless they could show that there is a better explanation of how measles works. Postulating that something else is involved is useless. You have to show it.

Postulating is, in another word, hypothesizing. You know... the first step of the scientific method?

On 5/2/2025 at 2:30 PM, The Nehor said:

Electricity does do things in the Universe. That is another myth of the whole electric universe theory. That scientists are somehow ignoring electricity. This theory is pushed by people making videos and using the internet which is all powered by electricity. Stars have electromagnetic fields (though more magnetic than electro). They cause solar storms and sunspots. Planets have magnetic fields. The idea that electricity is being ignored is silly.

I'll take you at your word here.

On 5/2/2025 at 2:30 PM, The Nehor said:

The science is settled on the Electric Universe theory. It is false. It is conspiracy theory nonsense that “mainstream science” is somehow heavily invested in teaching a false theory while suppressing the truth since it is all, you know, testable.

You're funny. I can't believe you said that the science is settled. What a joke.

There is a difference between people going against mainstream science with conspiracy theory tendencies because they fundamentally have a problem with authority and those who are genuinely interested in advancing science. I view EU in the latter category. I think the people who are currently researching and supporting that theory are genuinely scientifically minded, and your video dude even said as much. I view a theory like flat earth in the former category. I think people latch onto that when they skew too far anti-authoritarian.

There is a TON of science that is casually dismissed by the scientific elites of our day. It is all branded the same, as conspiracy nonsense, and paired with the phrase "the science is settled". If someone dismisses disagreement with condescending attitude and viewing the dissent as dangerous, then I have concerns about that person. Truth stands resolute and has nothing to fear. If someone is deceived they should be viewed with sincere pity and an anxious desire to help them shift their perspective to the truth. Not as if they are the dumbest person on the planet with no value to add to society.

On 5/2/2025 at 2:30 PM, The Nehor said:

Yeah, I would need to see evidence instead of vague anecdotal accounts that are usually coopted by the Electric Universe theory people as if it is evidence for their theory that explains nothing and doesn’t work. Science doesn’t operate on “it smelled weird”. That might provoke some inquiry but an anecdote alone is evidence for nothing.

I just said I thought it was cool that outer space had a scent. I learned it from that video from the EU people, and it blew my mind. That's all.

[Benjamin McGuire]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Dark Matter hypothesized because a lot of the math in General Relativity Theory falls apart without it? Same thing with the Higgs Boson particle? I'm probably way off base here.

Generally yes.

And I would say that the problems are even similar - except for a couple of things. The Higgs Boson was predicted half a century ago. It was a necessary particle for General Relativity. It was demonstrated mathematically long before we had the technology to test for it. And when we managed to develop the technology so that the test could be performed, the tests provided evidence that the Higgs Boson existed. That we could predict this mathematically - decades before it could be tested and then to have those tests confirm the theory provides a very strong confirmation of the theory as a whole (even if it is incomplete).

So we have a mathematical necessity for Dark Matter under the broadly accepted current model. This isn't the only possible explanation - it's a necessary component of the the big bang theory that we currently have. But, suppose that we modify the big bang, and instead of a single singularity exploding once into the universe as we know it, we have a series of explosions. If we make the beginning a bit more "wobbly," perhaps we don't need dark matter at all.

But in any case, Dark Matter isn't simply hypothesized. We have things that suggest evidence for the theory - if we can't observe it directly, we can observe its impact on things we can observe (like light, which appears to move when it hits the curvature of space-time believed to be caused by dark matter).

Which brings us back to the question of the Electric Universe. In the Electric Universe model, bodies of mass in the solar system were argued to have been ejected by the sun due to the polarized electrical charge of these objects. These objects are supposed to maintain that polarized charge, and it is this electrical charge (and not gravity) that keeps these objects in their respective orbits in the solar system. This was why, when the probes to comets were announced, the leading figures of the EU model suggested that you could never land on one with a probe - the contact would generate an arc of electricity that would destroy the probe. This didn't happen. (At least one of the videos discussed here mentions this). The problem with the EU is that it hasn't generated any empirical evidence in part because there is no real mathematical model behind it. The claims have never reached that level - in part because some of them seem so absurd - especially in light of the things that we do know with some certainty about physics. So we can't really compare Dark Matter with something like the EU. We certainly can't compare the EU with the Higgs Boson. If the EU could come up with some predictions that were proven right - and if their theories could be put into discrete theories and mathematical equations that would allow us to make predictions and test them, then we could move forward. But until then, it largely remains in the realm of pseudo-science.

Despite the fact that there seems to be an effort to embrace our better telescopes, the hopes of those who favor the electric universe model have not been borne out by these technological developments. Better telescopes have only increased evidence for gravitational lensing. They have only improved our Cosmic Microwave Background measurements. Both of these things are inherently contradictory to the Electric Universe model. And our ability to see back into the past has only increased our belief and understanding of fusion as the energy driver of stars - not some sort of massive cosmic electrical pathway.

2 hours ago, JVW said:

I have not been referring to it as a metaphor. Some dudes said that space smelled (not the stuff we put into space, but actual space). I thought that was really interesting. Some people in this thread said that was dumb, and I started debating with them about it. I don't have any metaphorical allusion things going on on my end.

I'll explain why I labeled it this way. First, we can't actually smell space because it's a vacuum. There is no mechanism for breathing it in - for moving the matter past our olfactory organs. We can only pretend like space is some sort of medium that we could breath in and see if there is enough density in the matter that is there to smell it. But, our anatomy doesn't work that way - and the theory here suggests that we could simply collect the density of matter and compare that with the matter that we can smell. Which brings us to the second point - Earth's atmosphere at sea level contains approximately 25 billion, billion (quintillion) molecules per cubic centimeter. Deep space typically has less than 1 atom on average per cubic centimeter. Somewhere in between is this 3-10 particles per cubic centimeter that the video mentions. If these particles are much larger than single molecules, they won't create odors in space locks when air is added back in. And if they are molecule sized, we are looking at a ratio of 3-10 parts per 25 quintillion? Even the most detectable smells that we know are nowhere near that level. Mercaptans have an olfactory threshold of 1-2 parts per billion. That solar wind at 3-10 parts per cubic centimeter would be so far below that threshold to be unnoticeable when introduced to us in breathable air. So the best that I can describe this as a metaphor. What would space smell like, if we took the materials that we detect and crank them up to smellable levels? And since that wouldn't be what space really smells like (even if we could smell in space), the whole thing is sort of a fantasy - and here it is a fantasy being used to promote the electric universe model - it is the click bait for the title. The whole thing reminds me of a line from the movie The Matrix, where Agent Smith tells Neo:

Quote

This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.

Of course, it's a digital reality in which everything is really simply a virtual impression made on the brain by induced electrical impulses. That smell (in the movie) is a metaphor. The strangeness for me is the videos attempt to assert that it isn't really a metaphor, its a reality and that it really means something for this bad theory.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, JVW said:

The math works for physics

I am not sure what you mean by this?

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, JVW said:

The math works for physics, idk if the model works. I know about as much about the model of General Relativity as I do the model of EU. I think the EU is flourishing in the spaces where the math and the model of General Relativity don't fit together, but don't quote me on that.

The Electric Universe can’t just ‘fill in the gaps’. It wants to take whole sections of physics out and replace them. It has to account for all the data. It doesn’t. Saying it works in the spaces we can’t see means it is meaningless.

9 hours ago, JVW said:

Postulating is, in another word, hypothesizing. You know... the first step of the scientific method?

This isn’t an elementary school science project. We already have the data to compare to the EU model. It doesn’t work.

9 hours ago, JVW said:

You're funny. I can't believe you said that the science is settled. What a joke.

It is settled for the Electric Universe theory. It doesn’t work. Pretending there is some ongoing tension as to which model will be shown to be right is ridiculous.

9 hours ago, JVW said:

There is a difference between people going against mainstream science with conspiracy theory tendencies because they fundamentally have a problem with authority and those who are genuinely interested in advancing science. I view EU in the latter category.

The Electric Universe has crossover with the Flat Earthers. It is conspiracy theory drivel. It suggests that the ‘hidebound mainstream science’ is hiding things. All of them. Across multiple nations, languages, and institutions. It is a big conspiracy in service to some nefarious purpose.

9 hours ago, JVW said:

I think the people who are currently researching and supporting that theory are genuinely scientifically minded, and your video dude even said as much. I view a theory like flat earth in the former category. I think people latch onto that when they skew too far anti-authoritarian.

They aren’t scientifically minded. They are theorycrafters. They don’t go to the data. They look for plausible sounding gobbledygook that sounds scientific. Yes, you have people with degrees that chime in but no one is publishing any of it because no one can make it work with the data. That is why you can’t get it published. However internet blogs and YouTube videos aren’t fact checked so you can say whatever you want.

9 hours ago, JVW said:

There is a TON of science that is casually dismissed by the scientific elites of our day. It is all branded the same, as conspiracy nonsense, and paired with the phrase "the science is settled". If someone dismisses disagreement with condescending attitude and viewing the dissent as dangerous, then I have concerns about that person. Truth stands resolute and has nothing to fear. If someone is deceived they should be viewed with sincere pity and an anxious desire to help them shift their perspective to the truth. Not as if they are the dumbest person on the planet with no value to add to society.

WHY? Why are these scientists conspiring? Why are they all so invested in the current model that they have all collectively agreed to dismiss the TRUTH?

And the appeal to pity. Why can’t they just be NICE and try to gently correct while not making people feel bad? They don’t because it doesn’t work. You don’t reason people out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Also believing in pseudoscience has real world consequences. See anti-vaxxers and climate change denial. With pseudoscience about repressed memories we got things like the satanic panic. A grand conspiracy theory of witches got a lot of people killed in the pre-modern period. Blood libel got Jews killed. Also pseudoscience undermines the credibility of experts so when we have situations where we need expert advice people start out poisoned against it. This gets people hurt and/or killed. It is not innocent.

And yeah, pseudoscience doesn’t add value to society. Those who distribute it are doing harm. It has to be fought against. If that hurts the feelings of the people doing the lying I won’t lose any sleep over it. Why do they do it? The thrill of being in on the secrets of reality? Burning resentment that they aren’t scientific luminaries? Just wanting to be contrarian? Probably a mix for most people. Not innocent motives. Yeah, sometimes someone gets taken in innocently but unless they live in a bubble they don’t innocently stay there.

9 hours ago, JVW said:

I just said I thought it was cool that outer space had a scent. I learned it from that video from the EU people, and it blew my mind. That's all.

It doesn’t though.