Facts About Mormons That Will Positively Fascinate You

[teddyaware]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Well now, we cannot help to perceive what our bodies allow us to see, and that is what I believe is the true meaning of "through a glass (ie: a mirror darkly";  we look out at the world but only see ourselves in the sense of only seeing what our body-limited perceptions allow ourselves to see.  We only hear and see certain frequencies for example.

But "then, face to face", we will see God in all his glory without human limitations.

That's gotta make a difference.

 

But I need to clarify that being born with a fallen nature does not necessarily doom one to spiritual blindness until the limitations of the mortal body are shed at the time of death. As we both know, there are great prophets and seers who, in significant measure, overcame the limitations of the fallen nature by becoming new creatures of the Holy Ghost through their great faith in the redemptive power of Christ. For example…

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and cans’t not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. (Ether 3)

and…

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him. (Ether 3)

Do you believe the brother of Jared was still largely in spiritual darkness in spite of what is said about him in the above verses? And remember, before answering it needs to be said that this great seer is no one less that the profoundly inspired author of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon.

P.S. I’m only asking this because I get the strong impression you believe the limitations of human perception prevent clear and godlike clarity in the perception of eternal truth.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

Deleted, being edited

Edited October 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

On 10/22/2022 at 2:44 PM, mfbukowski said:

I have not followed this discussion carefully so I might be totally wrong, or have missed crucial points of how it has evolved, BUT..... I believe that such a think will have little to do with "agency" but that the choice wil become so obvious that everyone will simply literally SEE the truth in front of them.

It might be like being confined to a cave for lifetimes and then suddenly the veil will be lifted and there before you stands a Being brighter than the sun speaking "words" that radiate love to such a degree that one who is a genuine seeker for God will simply surrender.  It will be so obvious that it almost cannot be resisted- yet technically it CAN be resisted.

I use the idea of "self-determination" a lot.

One's freedom is restricted by the 10 commandments, for example, but one might also see the benefits of everyone following them.  Like traffic laws- we need them to just drive down the street, though of course we are (in the USA) technically FREE to drive on the LEFT side of the road, but that of course would result in chaos!   And so we voluntarily "determine ourselves" and "restrict our freedom" to accept a higher level of peace by sticking to the rules so we can drive down the road without having to dodge oncoming traffic every 10 seconds.

THAT is self determination, and at the moment we experience God's actual presence in his glory, we will simply surrender.

It will be so obviously the best choice, that it would be absurd to choose something else

There will no doubt be an undeniable eye-opening as we pass back through the vail that will cause literally every knee to bow a knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ.  What we are talking about, however, is baptism.  The gospel is being preached just like it is here on earth to those who have passed on by representatives of Christ.  And just like here, there will be some (but not as many) who reject the gospel.    While all will acknowledge the Christ, Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow have all stated that not all will accept repentance and baptism. 

Quote

 

“A wonderful work is being accomplished in our temples in favor of the spirits in prison. I believe, strongly too, that when the Gospel is preached to the spirits in prison, the success attending that preaching will be far greater than that attending the preaching of our Elders in this life. I believe there will be very few indeed of those spirits who will not gladly receive the Gospel when it is carried to them. The circumstances there will be a thousand times more favorable” (Millennial Star, Jan. 22, 1894, 50).  Lorenzo Snow

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/introduction-to-family-history-student-manual/chapter-9?lang=eng

 

While there may be an enhanced knowledge of the Christ, and more favorable conditions, we will in all other ways have the same spirit/pride/enmity/anger/unapologetic nature in the next life that still needs to be overcome.  We are taught that not all will overcome it despite the favorable conditions.   It is actually scriptural that not all will repent for this reason:

Quote

Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful ^acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth ^bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become ^asubjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth ^bseal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

It seems clear that while teddy wants to so arrogantly assert some holier-than-thou special knowledge that the rest of the us spiritually immature church members deny in "cognitive dissonance" that all will repent in the next life, Alma 34 teaches us plainly that he simply "cannot say this".   To this day the correlated curriculum overseen and approved by the brethren of the church teaches that there are some who will still chose not to repent and be baptized.  Those will inherit the telestial kingdom. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

The fact is, nobody really knows for sure, it is a matter of interpretation.  I was just bothered by how arrogant and demeaning Teddy was towards his fellow members, setting himself up as some holy gnostic of special knowledge or something. 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

There will no doubt be an undeniable eye-opening as we pass back through the vail that will cause literally every knee to bow a knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ.  What we are talking about, however, is baptism.  The gospel is being preached just like it is here on earth to those who have passed on by representatives of Christ.  And just like here, there will be some (but not as many) who reject the gospel.    While all will acknowledge the Christ, Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow have all stated that not all will accept repentance and baptism. 

While there may be an enhanced knowledge of the Christ, and more favorable conditions, we will in all other ways have the same spirit/pride/enmity/anger/unapologetic nature in the next life that still needs to be overcome.  We are taught that not all will overcome it despite the favorable conditions.   It is actually scriptural that not all will repent for this reason:

It seems clear that while teddy wants to so arrogantly assert some holier-than-thou special knowledge that the rest of the us spiritually immature church members deny in "cognitive dissonance" that all will repent in the next life, Alma 34 teaches us plainly that he simply "cannot say this".   To this day the correlated curriculum overseen and approved by the brethren of the church teaches that there are some who will still chose not to repent and be baptized.  Those will inherit the telestial kingdom. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

The fact is, nobody really knows for sure, it is a matter of interpretation.  I was just bothered by how arrogant and demeaning Teddy was towards his fellow members, setting himself up as some holy gnostic of special knowledge or something. 

 

I have not followed the thread, nor did I know that someone stated that all will end up in the highest Kingdom.  I certainly did not say that.

Everyone will accept Jesus, but that does not imply exaltation 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I have not followed the thread, nor did I know that someone stated that all will end up in the highest Kingdom.  I certainly did not say that.

Everyone will accept Jesus, but that does not imply exaltation 

No worries.  

So, teddy is not claiming that all will be exalted.  His claim is that all will be required to repent and be baptized before they can receive any degree of glory, even in the lowest telestial kingdom.  

I agree that all will acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, but baptism is not required for the telestial kingdom.  

I really don't think it is a big deal for him to hold that interpretation, even though it is one that I (and the correlation department of the church) disagree with, it was his presentation that he is undeniably and absolutely correct and the rest of the church is living in cognitive dissonance as we reject what teddy has "revealed" to us. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by pogi

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

There will no doubt be an undeniable eye-opening as we pass back through the vail that will cause literally every knee to bow a knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ.  What we are talking about, however, is baptism.  The gospel is being preached just like it is here on earth to those who have passed on by representatives of Christ.  And just like here, there will be some (but not as many) who reject the gospel.    While all will acknowledge the Christ, Joseph Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow have all stated that not all will accept repentance and baptism. 

While there may be an enhanced knowledge of the Christ, and more favorable conditions, we will in all other ways have the same spirit/pride/enmity/anger/unapologetic nature in the next life that still needs to be overcome.  We are taught that not all will overcome it despite the favorable conditions.   It is actually scriptural that not all will repent for this reason:

It seems clear that while teddy wants to so arrogantly assert some holier-than-thou special knowledge that the rest of the us spiritually immature church members deny in "cognitive dissonance" that all will repent in the next life, Alma 34 teaches us plainly that he simply "cannot say this".   To this day the correlated curriculum overseen and approved by the brethren of the church teaches that there are some who will still chose not to repent and be baptized.  Those will inherit the telestial kingdom. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng

 

The fact is, nobody really knows for sure, it is a matter of interpretation.  I was just bothered by how arrogant and demeaning Teddy was towards his fellow members, setting himself up as some holy gnostic of special knowledge or something. 

To start, I want to make it clear (in case there’s any misunderstanding on the point) that I am not one who believes everyone will inherit the celestial kingdom of glory at the time of the resurrection. I believe in the three degrees of glory paradigm clearly set forth in Doctrine and Covenants 76. I say this because although it’s true that all men will ultimately accept Christ and be saved (with the notable exception of the sons of perdition) nevertheless precisely how men and women will be saved is a different story, the reason being that who inherits what kingdom is a matter of degrees of faith in Christ and degrees in valiance in the testimony of Jesus.

On the extreme ends, the inheritors of the highest degree of glory will proactively live lives of exemplary valiance in the testimony of Jesus, while, conversely, the inheritors of the lowest kingdom of glory will only believe after they have been rendered humble by being made to suffer for their own sins for an extended period of time, and thereafter having the truth of the gospel (the only means of their rescue from an endless hell) staring them straight in the face with almost undeniable power and glory (I say almost undeniable because the sons of perdition will reject the truth of the gospel of Christ, which denial of truth is likened unto denying the reality of the intense light that radiates from the sun on a clear summer day at midday.)

Also, I possess no special gift when it comes to understanding these things. If I possess any gift at all, it’s an ability to understand what’s plainly written in black and white in Doctrine and Covenants sections 76, 88 and 138. For example, Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly testifies that after suffering in hell for their sins, for as long as is necessary, the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will eventually bow the knee in humility before God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ. The fact that you apparently can’t see the clear implications of this profound statement isn’t my fault.

Finally, the verse you quote from Alma 34 doesn’t mean what you think it means. The verse is speaking of the state of the unrepentant wicked after the resurrection of the body, it’s not at all talking about the opportunities for salvation in the spirit world prior to the resurrection. Alma is saying it’s only everlastingly too late after the death of the mortal body, which only occurs in the eyes of God in the moments immediately prior the resurrection. Or have you forgotten that the gospel is preached to the dead so that they can be judged as if they are still living in the flesh while living according to the commandments of God in the spirit world. In the eyes of God, insofar as his plan of salvation is concerned, the mortal body isn’t officially dead in his eyes until the vicarious ordinance work of the temples is no longer being done. Till that time all men, except for the sons of perdition who have placed themselves beyond God’s saving grace, are treated by God as if they are still alive in the flesh. If not so, we may as well throw Doctrine and Covenants 138 out the window.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your BODY in that eternal world. (Alma 34)

The expression “this life” in the above verse would render all the vicarious temple work performed null and void if it is only referring to the life while in the mortal body and does not include the great program of salvation that will continue until the final day in the spirit world.

Edited October 24, 2022 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

On 10/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, teddyaware said:

But I need to clarify that being born with a fallen nature does not necessarily doom one to spiritual blindness until the limitations of the mortal body are shed at the time of death. As we both know, there are great prophets and seers who, in significant measure, overcame the limitations of the fallen nature by becoming new creatures of the Holy Ghost through their great faith in the redemptive power of Christ. For example…

11 And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak?

12 And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and cans’t not lie.

13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. (Ether 3)

and…

19 And because of the knowledge of this man he could not be kept from beholding within the veil; and he saw the finger of Jesus, which, when he saw, he fell with fear; for he knew that it was the finger of the Lord; and he had faith no longer, for he knew, nothing doubting.

20 Wherefore, having this perfect knowledge of God, he could not be kept from within the veil; therefore he saw Jesus; and he did minister unto him. (Ether 3)

Do you believe the brother of Jared was still largely in spiritual darkness in spite of what is said about him in the above verses? And remember, before answering it needs to be said that this great seer is no one less that the profoundly inspired author of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon.

P.S. I’m only asking this because I get the strong impression you believe the limitations of human perception prevent clear and godlike clarity in the perception of eternal truth.

 

No; misunderstanding. Again, NOW through a glass darkly, THEN face to face. Spiritual experience can cut through the experience of NOW to THEN anytime God wants to reveal something from the smallest wisp of still small voice to full theophany.

He just hits the volume button.

Reality imo, is direct experience, give through the 5 senses or the "sixth" 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Also, I possess no special gift when it comes to understanding these things

I agree.  Yet you seem to place yourself above "nearly all Latter-day Saints" in your ability to interpret section 76 properly.  Why is that if you don't view yourself as special?  

You suggest that "nearly all Latter-day Saints" are more content in their cognitive dissonance because it is too hard for us to accept what you so "plainly reveal" unto us???  Seriously?  You make yourself sound pretty special to me.  

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

If I possess any gift at all, it’s an ability to understand what’s plainly written in black and white in Doctrine and Covenants sections 76, 88 and 138.

So, you know better than the correlation department of the church how to interpret these passages?  That sounds pretty special. Almost prophet like in how you "reveal" it unto us. 

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

For example, Doctrine and Covenants 76 clearly testifies that after suffering in hell for their sins, for as long as is necessary, the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will eventually bow the knee in humility before God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ. The fact that you apparently can’t see the clear implications of this profound statement isn’t my fault.

For having such a gift of understanding what is so plainly written in black and white, it is surprising to me that you think it is "apparent" that I didn't acknowledge that all will confess that Jesus is the Christ.  In fact, I very plainly acknowledge the opposite.  The question isn't about who will confess that Jesus is the Christ, the question is about repentance and baptism as a prerequisite for even telestial glory.  

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Finally, the verse you quote from Alma 34 doesn’t mean what you think it means. The verse is speaking of the state of the unrepentant wicked after the resurrection of the body, it’s not at all talking about the opportunities for salvation in the spirit world prior to the resurrection.

Your claim is that all will repent and accept baptism in the spirit world (pre-resurrections).  Are you suggesting that all will repent in the spirit world, but after resurrection (for some mysterious reason) they become more evil and hardened and suddenly wont repent?  That makes not sense.   The point of Alma 34 is to not delay the day of our repentance and hope that we can repent in the next life, because the same spirit will poses us.  Joseph Smith talked about this too.  He said that we will largely have the same aptitude, weakness, pride, denial, etc. that we posses in this life.  

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Alma is saying it’s only everlastingly too late after the death of the mortal body, which only occurs in the eyes of God in the moments immediately prior the resurrection. 

Again...WHAT?  The death of the mortal body only happens immediately prior to the resurrection?  So what happens to our mortal body when...you know...we die?  It keeps living???  CFR on that one. 

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Or have you forgotten that the gospel is preached to the dead so that they can be judged as if they are still living in the flesh while living according to the commandments of God in the spirit world.

This says nothing about all being baptized. 

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

In the eyes of God, insofar as his plan of salvation is concerned, the mortal body isn’t officially dead in his eyes until the vicarious ordinance work of the temples is no longer being done. Till that time all men, except for the sons of perdition who have placed themselves beyond God’s saving grace, are treated by God as if they are still alive in the flesh. If not so, we may as well throw Doctrine and Covenants 138 out the window.

I have no problem with the idea that they are "treated by God as if they are alive in the flesh", but that doesn't mean their mortal body isn't officially dead.  I was a hospice nurse.  I know a dead body when I see one.   The fact that their baptism is by proxy kind of proves the point that God considers their bodies as dead.  Again, none of this has anything to do with everyone repenting and accepting baptism.  

You have really out-there interpretations that no one really teaches.  I would be a little more humble in your confidence in your ability to interpret scripture - especially when it contradicts the words of multiple prophets and the correlation of the church. 

Quote

 

For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become ^asubjected to the spirit of the devil

 

"Until death" does not mean "just before resurrection", sorry.  The idea Alma was pressing is that we need to repent NOW, in the flesh, because if we procrastinate and delay beyond that, we will become more "subject to the spirit of the devil".  

Edited October 24, 2022 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The expression “this life” in the above verse would render all the vicarious temple work performed null and void if it is only referring to the life while in the mortal body and does not include the great program of salvation that will continue until the final day in the spirit world.

No it wouldn't render it null and void.   Many never had the opportunity to hear the gospel and repent...therefore they are not "delaying" or "procrastinating" their repentance (which is the subject of this passage - not repentance in general).  Many others actively repent and strive to do their best in this life but never hear or fully accept the gospel, those people are not procrastinating either.  This verse is about those who willfully sin with the hope to fix it all in the next life.  For them, repentance in not likely in the next life either...certainly NOT something they ALL will do (as you claim).  Otherwise that makes ALMA 34 "null and void".

Edited October 24, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

So, teddy is not claiming that all will be exalted.  His claim is that all will be required to repent and be baptized before they can receive any degree of glory, even in the lowest telestial kingdom.  

I agree that all will acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, but baptism is not required for the telestial kingdom.  

Oh, ok thanks.

At the moment no, I don't think baptism is necessary for that relatively low level Kingdom, imo it will include regular "non religious" folks including the billions who have never heard the name of Jesus, without baptism.

I also currently believe that God has  check list of do's and don'ts that are unchangeable, to me, someone who was exceptionally righteous but born in 3000 BC in China would want all the ordinances, and would then, it is said in the usual paradigm, receive them by proxy.

I think that all who want the ordinances will receive them not as a "magic spell" that must be passed through, but because they personally want the spiritual, teaching experience they cause.

Experience is reality, and we all need to learn everything by direct experience vs "book learning" 

You can't know a person you never met, nor will a book about Paris allow you to "know" Paris until you have experienced it.

There is a word in Hebrew I can't remember at the moment that expresses that difference; it is also used when one "knows" their spouse.

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh, ok thanks.

At the moment no, I don't think baptism is necessary for that relatively low level Kingdom, imo it will include regular "non religious" folks including the billions who have never heard the name of Jesus, without baptism.

Yes, we are on the same page.

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think that all who want the ordinances will receive them not as a "magic spell" that must be passed through, but because they personally want the spiritual, teaching experience they cause.

Experience is reality, and we all need to learn everything by direct experience vs "book learning" 

You can't know a person you never met, nor will a book about Paris allow you to "know" Paris until you have experienced it.

There is a word in Hebrew I can't remember at the moment that expresses that difference; it is also used when one "knows" their spouse.

Agreed.