Calm Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, Fether said: Have you ever heard Wilcox explain what “Salvation” means in this section? What do both of you think this implies? Quote In the past I had a picture in my mind of what the final judgment would be like, and it went something like this: Jesus standing there with a clipboard and Brad standing on the other side of the room nervously looking at Jesus. Jesus checks His clipboard and says, “Oh, shoot, Brad. You missed it by two points.” Brad begs Jesus, “Please, check the essay question one more time! There have to be two points you can squeeze out of that essay.” That’s how I always saw it. But the older I get, and the more I understand this wonderful plan of redemption, the more I realize that in the final judgment it will not be the unrepentant sinner begging Jesus, “Let me stay.” No, he will probably be saying, “Get me out of here!” Knowing Christ’s character, I believe that if anyone is going to be begging on that occasion, it would probably be Jesus begging the unrepentant sinner, “Please, choose to stay. Please, use my Atonement—not just to be cleansed but to be changed so that you want to stay.” https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox/his-grace-is-sufficient/ Also: Quote Elder Bruce C. Hafen has written, “The Savior’s gift of grace to us is not necessarily limited in time to ‘after’ all we can do. We may receive his grace before, during and after the time when we expend our own efforts” (The Broken Heart [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1989], 155). So grace is not a booster engine that kicks in once our fuel supply is exhausted. Rather, it is our constant energy source. It is not the light at the end of the tunnel but the light that moves us through the tunnel. Grace is not achieved somewhere down the road. It is received right here and right now. It is not a finishing touch; it is the Finisher’s touch (see Hebrews 12:2). And: Quote The Book of Mormon teaches us to rely solely on “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8). As we do, we do not discover—as some Christians believe—that Christ requires nothing of us. Rather, we discover the reason He requires so much and the strength to do all He asks (see Philippians 4:13). Grace is not the absence of God’s high expectations. Grace is the presence of God’s power (see Luke 1:37). Edited April 11, 2022 by Calm
Fether Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 2 hours ago, Calm said: What do both of you think this implies? https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox/his-grace-is-sufficient/ Also: And: To me it seems clear he is referring to exaltation. I can’t picture him speaking about salvation from death in any of these instances
Calm Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Fether said: To me it seems clear he is referring to exaltation. I can’t picture him speaking about salvation from death in any of these instances Interesting. Did you just read the quotes or in context through the link? He imo makes the point in a couple of places that Christ will give us as much as we want, up to exaltation no doubt, but it isn’t an all or nothing type of gift…as in if we accept, we not only get a “get out of jail” card, but get all the monopolies as well (through sharing them with God). Quote I said, “No. The truth is, there is no line. Jesus filled the whole space. He paid our debt in full. He didn’t pay it all except for a few coins. He paid it all. It is finished. She said, “Right! Like I don’t have to do anything?” “Oh no,” I said, “you have plenty to do, but it is not to fill that gap. We will all be resurrected. We will all go back to God’s presence. What is left to be determined by our obedience is what kind of body we plan on being resurrected with and how comfortable we plan to be in God’s presence and how long we plan to stay there.” “We will all be resurrected” is salvation from death. That is the given based on Christ’s action. We accepted that part of the gift when we chose him as our Redeemer. What follows that depends on how much else we accept of his gift (though obedience and preparing ourselves to receive what we desire of his gift). And that may be Telestial to Celestial to exaltation. Edited April 11, 2022 by Calm
Fether Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 9 minutes ago, Calm said: Interesting. Did you just read the quotes or in context through the link? He imo makes the point in a couple of places that Christ will give us as much as we want, up to exaltation no doubt, but it isn’t an all or nothing type of gift. And iirc, he does speak of saving from death, but doesn’t use the term “salvation”, but I see that as equivalent (I accept that others may not, including Bro Wilcox). I read the talk before and has been the one that has been on my mind throughout this conversation. As already brought up, we dont REALLY know what Brad was intending, but this is the way I see it. In a church focused on getting people to exaltation and nothing short of that (I challenge anyone who disagrees to find a talk or statement trying to help people get to the terrestial kingdom). Why Brad dedicate an entire talk about grace only to be talking about salvation from death? The goal for everyone in the church is exaltation. A couple points: - The analogy of the score card is an analogy of falling 2 points short of celestial glory and exaltation. Why would it be anything but that? - the analogically made cry of “get me out of here!” Is coming from someone who doesn’t want to experience the full glory of Christ (ie celestial glory and exaltation) It would be a waste of a talk if Brad was using “salvation” in its broadest sense. The ultimate purpose of grace is to get us to exaltation.
Calm Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fether said: Why Brad dedicate an entire talk about grace only to be talking about salvation from death? I don’t think he was focusing on salvation from death, but rather Grace itself and that we need not worry about making it as that is a given (a gift we already accepted) if that is what we desire and we do not rebel. What we can think about and put our energy into instead is what comes next. Too many people start out believing they are failing. He wants to remove that attitude. Grace is sufficient. We are never failures. Edited April 11, 2022 by Calm
Fether Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 41 minutes ago, Calm said: I don’t think he was focusing on salvation from death, but rather Grace itself and that we need not worry about making it as that is a given (a gift we already accepted) if that is what we desire and we do not rebel. What we can think about and put our energy into instead is what comes next. Too many people start out believing they are failing. He wants to remove that attitude. Grace is sufficient. We are never failures. Failing from what though? No one is concerned about failing to get into the terrestial or telestial kingdom. It’s fear about not getting into the celestial kingdom. Which, again, goes back to the original topic. Latter-day Saint are normally referring to celestial glory and exaltation when they use the word “salvation”, not about salvation from death or any other lesser salvation
Calm Posted April 11, 2022 Posted April 11, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fether said: Failing from what though? No one is concerned about failing to get into the terrestial or telestial kingdom. It’s fear about not getting into the celestial kingdom. Which, again, goes back to the original topic. Latter-day Saint are normally referring to celestial glory and exaltation when they use the word “salvation”, not about salvation from death or any other lesser salvation I agree the vast majority of members out there are not afraid of failing to get into the Telestial, I don’t remember if those discussions I have had ever considered failing the Terrestrial. But I don’t see exaltation as equivalent to the Celestial Kingdom, so if you say it must be exaltation, I will likely debate you. Even if we typically use salvation in such a way, not everyone does plus I think it can be unhealthy to make life into an all or nothing scenario as too many assume it will be nothing for them. That is why I see Brother Wilcox’s talk as more useful if it is dealing with Grace and leaving the next part ambiguous, undetermined. I have seen some sure they would not get exaltation because they had married nonmembers, been divorced, or saw themselves as having made choices such that a faithful member would not wish to marry them in this life and because they saw themselves as responsible for this, they assumed there would be no chance after death and therefore they had forfeited their right to exaltation and some believed to Celestial glory. But there were those who believed there was no chance at temple marriage, yet they were still hoping and worrying about getting into the Celestial Kingdom as they wanted to be part of their parents’ family even if they were not to be part of a married couple themselves. I hope I remember this conversation so the next time I come across someone who expresses the fear of failing, I can ask them what they are afraid of. It is usually a fear of not being with their family in my experience and that implies at least the Celestial Kingdom and probably exaltation if they are married, but I have come across a few members fearing that they were going to be Sons of Perdition because they were having doubts or were inactive. I haven’t heard a woman express the fear of being a Son of Perdition, but they have believed they were headed to the Telestial. In addition to my usual “repentance doesn’t work that way, it’s not too late” discussion, I might ask them if they would be happy just to make it to the Terrestrial…but I doubt even if I remember, I will go there as I want to help them disconnect from the idea of being destined already for less than the best. Edited April 11, 2022 by Calm
marineland Posted April 11, 2022 Author Posted April 11, 2022 On 4/9/2022 at 4:21 PM, Calm said: Well, I was going to disagree with you but then found this in the 275 manual when I looked for references to 25:23 As a Latter-day Saint though, I think we jump to exaltation too often when the scripture speaks of salvation. After all, all three heavens are heavens of glory. @Fether Thank you both for your comments. I also found it mentioned in the True to the Faith book in the definition for Eternal Life on page 52. Remember that as you give your greatest effort and repent of your sins, the Atonement of Jesus Christ will compensate for your weakness and for the inequities, injuries, and pains you experience in this life: "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23).
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