Jaredites and their animal cargo, elephants, etc?

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, the issue of the New Jerusalem is also a serious problem for that hypothetical scenario.

Not really, since it will be someplace and expand outward from a center point. There could be multiple, as in many promised lands, places to gather, etc. There are other sheep all over the world, each remnant visited by the Lord, having their own books and presumably given the same set of promises. Just throwing it out there. Articles of Faith 10 certainly places it (or one of them at least) on the American continent.

I'd be interested in hearing how the Gentiles / mother Gentiles / no kings upon the land / kings of the Gentiles being nursing fathers all play out in parallel histories of the isles of the sea and the USA, or at least in the history of Thailand.

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

No way! I thought he came through Ellis Island.  You learn something new every day.

Where was the land Joseph Smith described in such detail to his family while being tutored by Moroni?

Apparently this will have to be rewritten:

 

I think that much of what is taught in the manuals about America could also be taught about other locales having parallel histories. The unique thing about America is Joseph Smith and the events of the Restoration, and taking the message to the rest of the world from there. But the dynamic between the Gentiles and the remnants of Israel and their gathering(s) in the last days could theoretically be repeated or replicated in various places across the globe.

Something else to consider is that the Book of Mormon events might have very reasonably taken place in areas much smaller than Mesoamerica, the Heartland or Thailand.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Where was the land Joseph Smith described in such detail to his family while being tutored by Moroni?

As John Clark said in his Revisiting A Key for Evaluating Nephite Geographies:

"It has been my experience that most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, when confronted with a Book of Mormon geography, worry about the wrong things. Almost invariably the first question that arise is whether the geography fits the archaeology of the proposed area. This should be our second question, the first being whether the geography fits the facts of the Book of Mormon—a question we all can answer without being versed in American archaeology. Only after a given geography reconciles all of the significant geographic details given in the Book of Mormon does the question of archaeological and historical detail merit attention. The Book of Mormon must be the final and most important arbiter in deciding the correctness of a given geography; otherwise we will be forever hostage to the shifting sands of expert opinion."

With that I request that our discussion stick to the text of the Book of Mormon only, putting aside all other questions (like "how did the Gold Plates get to Joseph Smith in NY?" or "what about the New Jerusalem in Missour?" or "where was the land Joseph Smith described in such detail to his family while being tutored by Moroni?") aside until the model has been tested against the text of the Book of Mormon itself. Its really difficult to test a BOM geogrpahy model against things that were said by 3rd party observers years, decades or even centuries after the Book of Mormon was published.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'd be interested in hearing how the Gentiles / mother Gentiles / no kings upon the land / kings of the Gentiles being nursing fathers all play out in parallel histories of the isles of the sea and the USA, or at least in the history of Thailand.

This question is what first sparked my interest in the region. I was working in the Mae La refugee camps along the Myanmar border where I met a Christian group that claimed they were descendants of a family of seven brothers. As their father was dying he called his sons together to give them his final blessings. The oldest son was given a "book of gold" containing their spiritual history but due to negligence, he lost it. The youngest brother however had a copy of the book and carried it west, to America. Ever sense, these stateless refugees have rejected kings and governments as they wait for the return of their Book of Gold from America. They believe it will be returned to them by their younger brothers from the West wearing white and black clothes, and they believe that once they have their book, they will prosper.

These Christian refugees have been sheltered by foreign governments, particularly America, for decades and are presently the largest group of refugees to be granted amnesty in the USA. The No. 1 group of modern refugees in America is neither Syrian nor Iraqi nor Muslim nor Arab. They’re Christians from Myanmar. As far as nursing mothers and fathers go, here's a few paragraphs from a PRI article: 

Quote

 

Kaw Hser was raised in these camps. Along with tens of thousands of others, he lived in a world where American aid helped provide clean water, vaccines and basic schooling. His afternoons were spent watching bootlegged Hollywood action movies. In these camps, there are still flimsy wooden outhouses decked out with the stars and stripes — and the message: “FUNDING PROVIDED BY THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.”

“For years, America has supported us. Not just physically but spiritually, too,” says Pastor Winner. He’s a 40-year-old preacher in Mae La, one of Asia’s largest refugee camps. Located on the Thai-Myanmar border, the camp is filled with Christians from the long-persecuted Karen ethnic group.

“America and the Karen, we are brothers,” he says. “This goes back to the 1830s when American missionaries came and converted us. Even before that, in Karen history, we believed white brothers would come to bring this ‘good news’ to the Karen people.”

 

These people are waiting for us to bring back their Gold Book.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

I have often thought about that. Mustering thousands of soldiers from across a continent in just a few months would be a difficult task for any military leader. 

 

13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

As John Clark said in his Revisiting A Key for Evaluating Nephite Geographies:

"It has been my experience that most members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, when confronted with a Book of Mormon geography, worry about the wrong things. Almost invariably the first question that arise is whether the geography fits the archaeology of the proposed area. This should be our second question, the first being whether the geography fits the facts of the Book of Mormon—a question we all can answer without being versed in American archaeology. Only after a given geography reconciles all of the significant geographic details given in the Book of Mormon does the question of archaeological and historical detail merit attention. The Book of Mormon must be the final and most important arbiter in deciding the correctness of a given geography; otherwise we will be forever hostage to the shifting sands of expert opinion."

With that I request that our discussion stick to the text of the Book of Mormon only, putting aside all other questions (like "how did the Gold Plates get to Joseph Smith in NY?" or "what about the New Jerusalem in Missour?" or "where was the land Joseph Smith described in such detail to his family while being tutored by Moroni?") aside until the model has been tested against the text of the Book of Mormon itself. Its really difficult to test a BOM geogrpahy model against things that were said by 3rd party observers years, decades or even centuries after the Book of Mormon

It truly  does appear you think the Church has had it all wrong from the start. Joseph and Lucy were hardly third party observers. Lucy made it up or remembered it incorrectly? I don’t understand how you can dismiss them so cavalierly, but give more credence to the legends of someone you happened to meet. How Ido you think the legend of the gold book survived the annihilation of the Nephites? Have there been mass conversions among them? It would be good to let them know we have their book.

Your story sounds somewhat like those we heard from the Cuna Indians on the San Blas Islands in Panama. BTW, they were on the mainland, not the islands, during BoM times, but they did not have a gold book.

I wish you well in your explorations and with those good people. We have a wonderful friend who is a political refugee from Myanmar. Her family was in the military there before the bad guys took over and they had to flee. Her son was in my school orchestra and best friends with one of my sons.  She converted to Christianity a couple of years ago and is now trying to establish the YMCA in her homeland.

Good luck with all that testing. It’s a big world.

In truth, I believe there are only two tests that really matter as far as the BoM and its purpose are concerned...Alma’s and Moroni’s. Passing those tests fires up  testimonies and motivates the hearts and souls of men to do extraordinary things in ways finding the River Sidon cannot, but that’s another discussion altogether.

Who knows what may come of this? Best wishes.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

It truly does appear you think the Church has had it all wrong from the start.

Again, I don’t know. I’m confident it all fits together in some way that we haven’t yet seen. 

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Lucy made it up or remembered it incorrectly?

According to Brigham Young, yes. But again I’m looking at Book of Mormon text exclusively. Everything else is commentary.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

How do you think the legend of the gold book survived the annihilation of the Nephites?

The legend is told from the perspective of the older brothers that lost the book yet remained in the land, ie the Lamanites. The younger brother (Moroni) carried it West after the annihilation of the Nephites.

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Who knows what may come of this? Best wishes.

Not sure if anything will (it’s probably too controversial), but thanks for discussing.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

This question is what first sparked my interest in the region. I was working in the Mae La refugee camps along the Myanmar border where I met a Christian group that claimed they were descendants of a family of seven brothers. As their father was dying he called his sons together to give them his final blessings. The oldest son was given a "book of gold" containing their spiritual history but due to negligence, he lost it. The youngest brother however had a copy of the book and carried it west, to America. Ever sense, these stateless refugees have rejected kings and governments as they wait for the return of their Book of Gold from America. They believe it will be returned to them by their younger brothers from the West wearing white and black clothes, and they believe that once they have their book, they will prosper.

These Christian refugees have been sheltered by foreign governments, particularly America, for decades and are presently the largest group of refugees to be granted amnesty in the USA. The No. 1 group of modern refugees in America is neither Syrian nor Iraqi nor Muslim nor Arab. They’re Christians from Myanmar. As far as nursing mothers and fathers go, here's a few paragraphs from a PRI article: 

These people are waiting for us to bring back their Gold Book.

I think this speaks to similar stories across the globe, where the descendants of a once divinely favored people await the return of “white” (is that figurative?)  messengers to renew lost knowledge, blessings, prosperity, etc.

In my limited research, some of these oral histories and ancient practices come across as having been passed down within the “remnant” group; assimilated or appropriated from an originating “remnant” group; syncretized with Christianity upon direct or second-hand exposure to the earliest colonizers and missionaries; or introduced by unscrupulous foreigners. This is how the Karen, for example, might come to worship “Y’wa” or how it can take a single generation for parents to teach their children, or a regime / resistor imposing a reimagined history (religion is a most powerful tool).

Please do not take any of this as a refutation of what you have observed of the Karen; scholarship is very profitable.

I just looked at various online versions of the Karen prophecy from Christian and presumably LDS member-sponsored bloggers and websites, respectively interpreting the gold book to be the Bible or the Book of Mormon. I even noticed some scholarship involving the motif among at least one Buddhist sect.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Again, I don’t know. I’m confident it all fits together in some way that we haven’t yet seen. 

According to Brigham Young, yes. But again I’m looking at Book of Mormon text exclusively. Everything else is commentary.

The legend is told from the perspective of the older brothers that lost the book yet remained in the land, ie the Lamanites. The younger brother (Moroni) carried it West after the annihilation of the Nephites.

Not sure if anything will (it’s probably too controversial), but thanks for discussing.

In some versions, "brother" is used figuratively for "people" or "tribe" i.e. seven "peoples" and "oldest/youngest" being figurative for merchants/farmers, prosperous/poor, early/later ruling party, dynasty, or tribe, etc.

[Bernard Gui]

19 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

23 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Lucy made it up or remembered it incorrectly?

According to Brigham Young, yes. But again I’m looking at Book of Mormon text exclusively. Everything else is commentary.

I have to comment on this. It may be somewhat misleading. 

I don’t believe this particular story was questioned by Brother Brigham and his associates nor the more recent scholars who have who studied and revised her book. This from the Proctors...https://latterdaysaintmag.com/did-brigham-young-reject-lucy-mack-smiths-book-on-joseph/

Quote

In a journal entry, Wilford Woodruff detailed what President Young’s intent was: “He said he wished us to take up that work and revise it, correct it; that it belonged to the Historian to attend to it; that there was many false statements made in it, and he wished them to be left out, and all other statements which we did not know to be true, and give the reason why they are left out.” Though it is not entirely clear what “false statements” leaped out at Brigham Young, many of his concerns clearly came from doubting Lucy’s capacity at her advanced age and given her health to get the story straight.

Time and scholarship would show that this assessment was refutable. Those who visited Lucy in Nauvoo during the last years of her life often reported her to be alert and mentally acute. Artist Frederick H. Piercy, who drew scenes of the Mormon trail still in use today, stopped by the Mansion House, and carefully observed Lucy. “I could not fail to regard the old lady with great interest. Considering her age and afflictions, she, at that time, retained her faculties to a remarkable degree. She spoke very freely of her sons, and with tears in her eyes, and every other symptom of earnestness, vindicated their reputations for virtue and truth.” 

Enoch Bartlett Tripp, visiting her in November 1855 in one of the last months of her life, also commented on her memory: “I called upon the Prophet’s Mother and found her in a lonely room in the eastern part of the house in her bed and very feeble. Upon approaching her bedside and informing her who I was, she arose in her bed and placing her arms around my neck kissed me exclaiming, ‘I can now die in peace since I have beheld your face from the valleys of the mountains.’ She made many inquiries after the Saints and remarked that she took much comfort in riding out with me and my wife in the days that I taught school here.” 

Far more significant than the anecdotal reports, however, are the modern studies conducted by Richard Lloyd Anderson on Mother Smith’s history. Checking other journals, newspaper accounts, non-Mormon church records, vital records, and independent recollections for verification, he found that the great majority of what Lucy states tests very well.

He noted: “The preliminary and finished manuscripts give about 200 names. With the exception of a small percentage of indefinite names, nearly all can be verified, including some spectacular memories clear from her New England childhood. Her percentage on dates is not as good, probably reflecting her interest in people more than calendar years-yet when mistaken, she is typically within a year or two of the precise time.

“Obviously an event itself was more vivid to her mind than the exact point of its occurrence. So Lucy’s history is reliable but not an infallible source. How to tell? To reiterate a critical point, she will be a prime source when speaking from personal observation and only secondary when relaying what others have told her.” 

We also cannot discount Joseph’s and Moroni’s words.

Quote

He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

Anyway, it’s all very interesting.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have to comment on this. It may be somewhat misleading. 

I don’t believe this particular story was questioned by Brother Brigham and his associates and scholars who have who studied and revised her book. This from the Proctors...https://latterdaysaintmag.com/did-brigham-young-reject-lucy-mack-smiths-book-on-joseph/

I also cannot discount Joseph’s own words.

Anyway, it’s all very interesting.

I've sometimes thought that Lehi's group had to have stopped along the way, and perhaps shared their religion with the locals (cultural and language barriers aside); even that some of the passengers disembarked for good or went AWOL along the way; the brass plates may have become gold in the histories that were passed down.

[Bernard Gui]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

I've sometimes thought that Lehi's group had to have stopped along the way, and perhaps shared their religion with the locals (cultural and language barriers aside); even that some of the passengers disembarked for good or went AWOL along the way; the brass plates may have become gold in the histories that were passed down.

Perhaps they did. Sounds reasonable.

Since Nephi was a metallurgist, perhaps he was also adept at alchemy.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Bernard Gui