Are we agents or objects?

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I love the positive topic thread and great examples. It's good to see a topic other than the same 5 people with the same 5 gripes about the church for a change.

 

I agree that life is about using our agency for the accentuating positive. I love reading the New Testament because I feel that Jesus did exactly this. He was overall positive and full of love. I like to think that he found a little humor in his witty responses such as "render to Caesar" and 'He without sin cast the first stone" as much as I find humor in them and they make me smile.

He did make the best of difficult situations. When others tried to ensnare him with words he was able to turn the tables and teach them or call them to repentance. Several Book of Mormon prophets had this ability also.

[Bernard Gui]

15 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I submit that our oneness with the universe makes us closer kin with smaller groupings of matter and energy than we think.

In the sandbox of the cosmos, we all came from the same dust, and to that dust we’ll all return.

Some things in the sandbox universe don’t play nice.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

16 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

@changed - I find it more than a little ironic that the above was your response to these questions:

>What can we do to utilize our agency and avoid the complacent victimization of objectifying our existence? 
>Does happiness depend on our circumstance or rather on how we use our agency to deal with those circumstances, even when they are difficult or unpleasant?

I am not sure what happened to you that you have such anger against the Church of Jesus Christ, but I can tell it had a deep impact. 

I know you don't know me, but I highly recommend reading Christ's words of peace in the New Testament and pondering the questions that were posed above for how they can apply to your life (specifically your life - not other's lives like Warren Jeffs or those who exclude family members)

There were victims of the Holocaust who were able to survive the horror by using their will and agency to find ways to be positive, to ovecome unimaginable adversity, and even to create opportunities for service....refusing to be objectified but choosing to act even while being grotesquely acted upon. When I try to imagine how I would behave in that situation (or a similar scenario such as the persecution of the early Saints in Rome, the Nephites, or the Mormon pioneers) I wonder if I would have the of strength of character to be an agent and not an object. Sobering thoughts.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

On 5/5/2019 at 2:51 PM, Bernard Gui said:

He stated that man is the only one of God's creations that  is an agent, ie., something that has volition and can choose its path, as opposed to the objects of creation that can only react to the natural stimuli around them

I would recommend some kind of mindfulness meditation. There are many varieties and even apps that will help you with this. The key is learning to be able to observe your own internal states, and NOTICE what upsets you and how you have a tendency to react to the stimuli. If there is someone for example who always gets under your skin, you can train yourself to notice that reaction when it starts happening. 

After that the key is to not REACT but to RESPOND- in a measured way, understanding exactly what is happening.

When we react, the other person or the situation is in control and we lose our agent status.

When we rationally respond we are in control, and are responding as an agent instead of being controlled by the other person or situation.

I have found that meditation helps me control that because I am able to observe my own internal states and monitor my own "buttons" as they are being "pushed" by the person or situation. 

It helps a lot! It helps me control my emotions and I and I'm learning how to respond better without reacting.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

He did make the best of difficult situations. When others tried to ensnare him with words he was able to turn the tables and teach them or call them to repentance. Several Book of Mormon prophets had this ability also.

Yes indeed and in these situations he was the model of how we should be able to respond.

But it seems to me that the key is that he was able to notice what the opposition was trying to do and immediately saw it in the right light and was able to respond instead of reacting.

Noticing your own internal States as they are happening I think is the key.

But for me that is not at all easy and has to be learned.

[Anonymous Mormon]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There were victims of the Holocaust who were able to survive the horror by using their will and agency to find ways to be positive, to ovecome unimaginable adversity, and even to create opportunities for service....refusing to be objectified but choosing to act even while being grotesquely acted upon. When I try to imagine how I would behave in that situation (or a similar scenario such as the persecution of the early Saints in Rome, the Nephites, or the Mormon pioneers) I wonder if I would have the of strength of character to be an agent and not an object. Sobering thoughts.

When I read books such as Man's Search For Meaning or Unbroken I wonder this same thing - how would I have reacted in these situations?

Similarly, when I read the Sermon on the Mount or Christ's teachings on Love I think of these kinds of situations and wonder if I would have enough love and faith to live Christ-like principles in these horrible situations. I don't think I'd fair as well as I like to think, since I struggle to live Christ's love as perfectly as I would like within real-world irritating family situations.

I hope that I am learning to be an agent unto myself, and to act with love and kindness instead of just being acted upon and responding. I certainly see where I still fall short. 

I really like the attitude you expressed in your OP - you looked forward to the times when you could apply the principles. Maybe I need to look forward to the time with my family member where I can turn the other cheek or give my coat & cloak.

[Bernard Gui]

35 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

When I read books such as Man's Search For Meaning or Unbroken I wonder this same thing - how would I have reacted in these situations?

Similarly, when I read the Sermon on the Mount or Christ's teachings on Love I think of these kinds of situations and wonder if I would have enough love and faith to live Christ-like principles in these horrible situations. I don't think I'd fair as well as I like to think, since I struggle to live Christ's love as perfectly as I would like within real-world irritating family situations.

I hope that I am learning to be an agent unto myself, and to act with love and kindness instead of just being acted upon and responding. I certainly see where I still fall short. 

I really like the attitude you expressed in your OP - you looked forward to the times when you could apply the principles. Maybe I need to look forward to the time with my family member where I can turn the other cheek or give my coat & cloak.

That’s my wish too!

 

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes indeed and in these situations he was the model of how we should be able to respond.

But it seems to me that the key is that he was able to notice what the opposition was trying to do and immediately saw it in the right light and was able to respond instead of reacting.

Noticing your own internal States as they are happening I think is the key.

But for me that is not at all easy and has to be learned.....

I would recommend some kind of mindfulness meditation. There are many varieties and even apps that will help you with this. The key is learning to be able to observe your own internal states, and NOTICE what upsets you and how you have a tendency to react to the stimuli. If there is someone for example who always gets under your skin, you can train yourself to notice that reaction when it starts happening. 

After that the key is to not REACT but to RESPOND- in a measured way, understanding exactly what is happening.

 When we react, the other person or the situation is in control and we lose our agent status.

When we rationally respond we are in control, and are responding as an agent instead of being controlled by the other person or situation.

 I have found that meditation helps me control that because I am able to observe my own internal states and monitor my own "buttons" as they are being "pushed" by the person or situation. 

 It helps a lot! It helps me control my emotions and I and I'm learning how to respond better without reacting.

Yes. I always think of the right thing to say or do long after the appropriate time to have said or done it has passed. How do we learn this kind of immediate self-awareness? Through the Spirit....?

I used to think I would have this great store of wisdom when I grew old, garnered from years of hard experience and serious reflection. Instead, I’m becoming more and more like Sergeant Schultz: “I know nothink, I know nothink!”

As Groucho said, 

Quote

Age is not a particularly interesting subject. Anyone can get old. All you have to do is live long enough.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes. I always think of the right thing to say or do long after the appropriate time to have said or done it has passed. How do we learn this kind of immediate self-awareness? Through the Spirit....?

I used to think I would have this great store of wisdom when I grew old, garnered from years of hard experience and serious reflection. Instead, I’m becoming more and more like Sergeant Schultz: “I know nothink, I know nothink!”

As Groucho said, 

 

You crack me up, mi amigo!! 😁 

I have the same problem but I have found that when I am mentally in the right place, it just flows.

I think that's where the Savior was all the time.

You have to see the individual as a child, but a child of God. You can see that individual that way without being condescending if you are seeing him as God sees him.

So you see it as sort of a calm correction mode where you can lovingly correct someone without being rude or condescending, just as the Savior did on multiple occasions.

But that is not easy.

It might even be destructive to have something pre-planned because then you are not responding you are looking for notes, or to pick just the right response. 

It's hard because one has to BE the response.

The person I am learning this from would say that until you get to that point the best strategy might be to say nothing and simply let it run off.

Mentally you have to become an impregnable military tank lumbering through the Battle zone while the local natives throw rocks at you. Your defenses have to become absolute. The incoming shots bounce off and do not get to the soft core inside.

You only lose your agency when you lose control and let the attacker cause you to react. That switches you mentally into defense mode and therefore the attacker wins that round. 

You see it here. The really wise can take insults and stupid comments without responding.

So like a tree in a storm you just stand there and take it and maybe lose a few branches, but overall you remain unmoved. Your core is untouched which is what is important. They can take you over if you react. Then you are an object and not an agent.

Sometimes you see this in minority cultures who are constantly under attack. You see the youth play games that might include calling "Yo mama" names. The game is really about coming up with a better insult than was given but I think the way the game actually functions that helps one to take insults without losing it.  Ultimately that strengthens the individual to turn the comment into humor just shrugging it off which becomes a great strategy in dealing with insults.

But I think the real goal is to learn to become like the savior in becoming a tree which is unshakable in the wind.

I think the key is to know that once you react they have you, you have become they're plaything and you have lost your agency.

They will keep poking just to see how the little mouse squeaks this time. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You crack me up, mi amigo!! 😁 

I have the same problem but I have found that when I am mentally in the right place, it just flows.

I think that's where the Savior was all the time.

You have to see the individual as a child, but a child of God. You can see that individual that way without being condescending if you are seeing him as God sees him.

So you see it as sort of a calm correction mode where you can lovingly correct someone without being rude or condescending, just as the Savior did on multiple occasions.

But that is not easy.

It might even be destructive to have something pre-planned because then you are not responding you are looking for notes, or to pick just the right response. 

It's hard because one has to BE the response.

The person I am learning this from would say that until you get to that point the best strategy might be to say nothing and simply let it run off.

Mentally you have to become an impregnable military tank lumbering through the Battle zone while the local natives throw rocks at you. Your defenses have to become absolute. The incoming shots bounce off and do not get to the soft core inside.

You only lose your agency when you lose control and let the attacker cause you to react. That switches you mentally into defense mode and therefore the attacker wins that round. 

You see it here. The really wise can take insults and stupid comments without responding.

So like a tree in a storm you just stand there and take it and maybe lose a few branches, but overall you remain unmoved. Your core is untouched which is what is important. They can take you over if you react. Then you are an object and not an agent.

Sometimes you see this in minority cultures who are constantly under attack. You see the youth play games that might include calling "Yo mama" names. The game is really about coming up with a better insult than was given but I think the way the game actually functions that helps one to take insults without losing it.  Ultimately that strengthens the individual to turn the comment into humor just shrugging it off which becomes a great strategy in dealing with insults.

But I think the real goal is to learn to become like the savior in becoming a tree which is unshakable in the wind.

I think the key is to know that once you react they have you, you have become they're plaything and you have lost your agency.

They will keep poking just to see how the little mouse squeaks this time. 

Thank you for this thought-provoking reply. As I read, I was reminded of the several times the word immovable is used in the Book of Mormon to describe those who are secure in their faith. This is what we could aspire to. It is a good answer to the questions posed in the OP...,

3 Nephi 6

12 And the people began to be distinguished by ranks, according to their riches and their chances for learning; yea, some were ignorant because of their poverty, and others did receive great learning because of their riches.
13 Some were lifted up in pride, and others were exceedingly humble; some did return railing for railing, while others would receive railing and persecution and all manner of afflictions, and would not turn and revile again, but were humble and penitent before God.
14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.
15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world.
16 And thus Satan did lead away the hearts of the people to do all manner of iniquity; therefore they had enjoyed peace but a few years.

 

I hope we can enjoy peace for a few years. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Meerkat]

On 5/5/2019 at 8:13 PM, Wade Englund said:

Following one's own will instead of God's or His chosen leaders, is where agency becomes most meaningful.   

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Yes.  What a great comment about the value of disobedience.   What better teacher is there?  “And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.”  Moses 5:11 

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

15 Now the cause of this iniquity of the people was this—Satan had great power, unto the stirring up of the people to do all manner of iniquity, and to the puffing them up with pride, tempting them to seek for power, and authority, and riches, and the vain things of the world.
16 And thus Satan did lead away the hearts of the people to do all manner of iniquity; therefore they had enjoyed peace but a few years.

This is the challenge— to choose rightly when confronted with temptation.

The other day, I read about a school where eighty percent were the majority race, and twenty percent were in the minority.  

Music preference was along racial lines.  Choosing music for the senior prom, the students were asked what kind of music they preferred.  Although there was a sizable minority, the majority (in good conscience) was able to override the minority by popular vote. 

The result did not seem fair to the minority.  Indeed, they were not properly represented. Their freedom was a infringed upon by the thoughtless exercise of the majority’s free agency.  

There is much to learn of charity, mercy, patience and love IF we think about our choices and those impacted by the votes we cast and the decisions we make. 

 

 

 

[Anonymous Mormon]

20 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

...

Mentally you have to become an impregnable military tank lumbering through the Battle zone while the local natives throw rocks at you. Your defenses have to become absolute. The incoming shots bounce off and do not get to the soft core inside.

...

So like a tree in a storm you just stand there and take it and maybe lose a few branches, but overall you remain unmoved. Your core is untouched which is what is important. They can take you over if you react. Then you are an object and not an agent.

Wow, I like the imagery of both the tank and the tree. Great examples. Christ said the same thing in the following words:

"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

I struggle with this still since my pride gets in the way. But the good news is I see marked improvement from where I was 5 years ago and plan to continue to make improvements in the next 5 going forward.