Come follow me

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 12/12/2018 at 12:59 AM, SouthernMo said:

What do you mean mean that this will be a brass serpent?  What will happen to those who do not study the Come Follow Me manual?

Quite simply, they will not receive any of the blessings that flow from studying Come, Follow Me. And in most cases, they won't even realise it.

I've mentioned several times before on this forum that a clear division is occurring in my ward. Those who are engaged have never been stronger or more spiritually alive. They come to church each Sunday radiant with the light of Christ and fairly bursting to share some of what they've experienced during the previous week. When men are invited to share ministering experiences at the beginning of elders quorum each week, their hands go in the air. Families speak warmly of being guided by revelation. When I'm asked to teach youth Sunday school (which has happened about four times in the the past two months), the young people in these families also have things to share.

And then we have everyone else. Half of them seem too asleep (or distracted) to even notice what's happening around them. Some of the others appear confused; I can't really say what's going on in their heads.

The goal, of course, is to help the disengaged join the engaged. As Elder Bednar told us in our training meeting with him nearly five years ago now, it is only the engaged who will have sufficient (and mounting!) evidence to maintain a living faith.

[SouthernMo]

32 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Quite simply, they will not receive any of the blessings that flow from studying Come, Follow Me. And in most cases, they won't even realise it.

I've mentioned several times before on this forum that a clear division is occurring in my ward. Those who are engaged have never been stronger or more spiritually alive. They come to church each Sunday radiant with the light of Christ and fairly bursting to share some of what they've experienced during the previous week. When men are invited to share ministering experiences at the beginning of elders quorum each week, their hands go in the air. Families speak warmly of being guided by revelation. When I'm asked to teach youth Sunday school (which has happened about four times in the the past two months), the young people in these families also have things to share.

And then we have everyone else. Half of them seem too asleep (or distracted) to even notice what's happening around them. Some of the others appear confused; I can't really say what's going on in their heads.

The goal, of course, is to help the disengaged join the engaged. As Elder Bednar told us in our training meeting with him nearly five years ago now, it is only the engaged who will have sufficient (and mounting!) evidence to maintain a living faith.

Didn’t the people who did not look to the brass serpent die?  Death seems quite different that disengaged.

Maybe you were just using hyperbole to make the point that you believe it’s better to study the manual than not to study it?

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Didn’t the people who did not look to the brass serpent die?  Death seems quite different that disengaged.

Are you aware of any scriptures that teach that the disengaged will live?

In answer to a question posed by an elders quorum president who asked what he should tell the men in his quorum who claimed they were too busy to do their (then named) home teaching, Elder Bednar in our training meeting said, 'You are obligated to be honest with them. Tell them that, whether it takes two years or 20, they are making the choice to lose their faith and eventually leave the Church'.

In my experience, knowledge of eternal truths always depends upon our actions/engagement. Faith without works is dead in large part because faith without works dies. One can only believe something without evidence for so long.

The alternative is an accumulation of evidence that becomes overwhelming to the point of surety and then just keeps growing. The choice is ours, but as Elder Bednar knew, too often those who choose otherwise don't even realise what they're choosing.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you aware of any scriptures that teach that the disengaged will live?

In answer to a question posed by an elders quorum president who asked what he should tell the men in his quorum who claimed they were too busy to do their (then named) home teaching, Elder Bednar in our training meeting said, 'You are obligated to be honest with them. Tell them that, whether it takes two years or 20, they are making the choice to lose their faith and eventually leave the Church'.

You made the comparison to the brass serpent. I don’t need to find scriptures to support my position. I have none on this issue!  I’m asking about your position, which requires no “proof.”

These scare tactics about death and leaving the church are not effective on me. Maybe the fear of death has motivated you to study your manual? I’m motivated differently.

Elder Bednar warns that those who do not do their home teaching will leave the church?  Again - why all this focus on church?  I’m far more concerned about my relationship with Christ.

If I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to do/say here, please tell me. Because right now it seems like you’re asking me to prove some point I’m not trying to make, and then using apostle-quotes to scare me into doing my ministering - which has nothing to do with the new manual or my question to you to clarify what you meant.

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Maybe the fear of death has motivated you to study your manual?

Not at all. I'm motivated by my love of the Lord and all things that He provides us. He came that we might have life, and that we might have it more abundantly. I've made plenty of choices in my life that have left me feeling spiritually dead and lacking the companionship of the Holy Ghost. I still make those choices for some stupid reason, but overwhelmingly I prefer the alternative.

Quote

If I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to do/say here, please tell me.

At this point, I genuinely don't know how to express myself in a way that you won't misunderstand/misread. I'm sorry.

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Because right now it seems like you’re asking me to prove some point I’m not trying to make, and then using apostle-quotes to scare me into doing my ministering ...

Mate, I was just simply trying to answer your question. I think in future it might be better for both of us if I don't? 

[SouthernMo]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, I was just simply trying to answer your question. I think in future it might be better for both of us if I don't? 

It’s your call whether you answer or not. It’s not better for me - I am seeking understanding and accept that it is sometimes a challenge to get there. If it’s hard on you to answer me, then you have to do what you need to do.

I’m trying to understand your use of a symbol associated with life and death and how it applies to studying the new manual.  I’m not seeing the same magnitude you are between the consequences of not looking to the serpent and not reading that book.  Maybe one day I’ll see the death associated with non-study of this manual that you do...

[Avatar4321]

43 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

You made the comparison to the brass serpent. I don’t need to find scriptures to support my position. I have none on this issue!  I’m asking about your position, which requires no “proof.”

These scare tactics about death and leaving the church are not effective on me. Maybe the fear of death has motivated you to study your manual? I’m motivated differently.

Elder Bednar warns that those who do not do their home teaching will leave the church?  Again - why all this focus on church?  I’m far more concerned about my relationship with Christ.

If I’m misunderstanding what you’re trying to do/say here, please tell me. Because right now it seems like you’re asking me to prove some point I’m not trying to make, and then using apostle-quotes to scare me into doing my ministering - which has nothing to do with the new manual or my question to you to clarify what you meant.

Scare tactics? By speaking the truth?

the Lord has spoken clearly that follow Him leads to life Eternal and that rejection His counsel leads to spiritual death.

Do you think it’s a scare tactic to honestly discuss consequences of poor choices?

[SouthernMo]

16 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Scare tactics? By speaking the truth?

the Lord has spoken clearly that follow Him leads to life Eternal and that rejection His counsel leads to spiritual death.

Do you think it’s a scare tactic to honestly discuss consequences of poor choices?

I’m not advocating avoiding the truth. Never.

But, @Hamba Tuhan drew a comparison between studying the come follow me manual and looking to the brass serpent. Those who didn’t look to the brass serpent died!

I’m not sure those who don’t study the new manual will die. I don’t see truth in that comparison.  So, it seems like a scare tactic to connotate that those who don’t study the manual wil die.

Im sure people will miss out!  But I don’t think anyone will die physically or spiritually just because they don’t read that publication.

[Avatar4321]

5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m not advocating avoiding the truth. Never.

But, @Hamba Tuhan drew a comparison between studying the come follow me manual and looking to the brass serpent. Those who didn’t look to the brass serpent died!

I’m not sure those who don’t study the new manual will die. I don’t see truth in that comparison.  So, it seems like a scare tactic to connotate that those who don’t study the manual wil die.

Im sure people will miss out!  But I don’t think anyone will die physically or spiritually just because they don’t read that publication.

The Israelites didnt think not looking would lead to death either

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I’m trying to understand your use of a symbol associated with life and death and how it applies to studying the new manual.

You see life and death for some reason (quite literally, it would appear). I see healing. Those who looked at the serpent were healed. Now, I half expect you to ask me how many of the Saints are suffering from snakebite, so maybe I should point out here that this is all metaphor and not about reptile venom?

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I’m not seeing the same magnitude you are between the consequences of not looking to the serpent and not reading that book.

Ah, but that's the whole point, right? As the Book of Mormon clearly teaches, merely looking at a brass serpent seemed of little magnitude, so people didn't do it and therefore missed out on the healing that could have been theirs. We see something quite similar in the prophet's advice to Naaman to wash in the River Jordan, which initially was rejected (and quite angrily so) because it seemed like such a small, base and therefore ineffective fix to his leprosy.

[SouthernMo]

8 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

The Israelites didnt think not looking would lead to death either

But it did. I don’t have the faith to believe that people will die from not reading the manual. We’ll see if I’m proven wrong.

[Avatar4321]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You see life and death for some reason (quite literally, it would appear). I see healing. Those who looked at the serpent were healed. Now, I half expect you to ask me how many of the Saints are suffering from snakebite, so maybe I should point out here that this is all metaphor and not about reptile venom?

Ah, but that's the whole point, right? As the Book of Mormon clearly teaches, merely looking at a brass serpent seemed of little magnitude, so people didn't do it and therefore missed out on the healing that could have been theirs. We see something quite similar in the prophet's advice to Naaman to wash in the River Jordan, which initially was rejected (and quite angrily so) because it seemed like such a small, base and therefore ineffective fix to his leprosy.

Side note:

its amazing that you mention Naaman. I was just thinking of him in relation to this discussion

[Avatar4321]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

But it did. I don’t have the faith to believe that people will die from not reading the manual. We’ll see if I’m proven wrong.

But do you have faith to believe people will be healed by following the counsel?

do you have faith that you can be?

also, this home centered approach is much more than just the come follow me manual

[SouthernMo]

10 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

But do you have faith to believe people will be healed by following the counsel?

do you have faith that you can be?

also, this home centered approach is much more than just the come follow me manual

People could be healed, but I don’t know of any promise related to healing and the manual or this home-centered approach.

I only know of Hamba’s warning. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

I only know of Hamba’s warning. 

My 'warning' consisted entirely of the following: 'I strongly suspect this will prove to be one more brass serpent for modern Israel. I fully expect many more'.

I stand by my suspicion. As I noted above, I can observe firsthand in my ward what's happening in the lives of members who are seriously striving to follow current prophetic teachings and guidance. My housemate and I have already begun setting aside one evening per week to study from the preparatory material in Come, Follow Me. It has had a sanctifying effect on our home, and we haven't even got into the proper study yet.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan