mfbukowski Posted November 4, 2018 Posted November 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, Duncan said: So, we are taught that the HSOP validates ordinances in Heaven but I don't recall having any kind of confirmation that it was done for me, so how do I know any ordinance i've ever participated in is good or validated in Heaven? am I to experience this at some point or what? Then we are taught that we need Sealing keys to also validate in Heaven an ordinance like being sealed in the Temple, my question is why do we need two validations for an ordinance? When I was baptized my brother didn't hold the Sealing keys to perform the ordinance, the Bishop held the key to allow it to happen but not to seal it in heaven, so that ordinance we are taught would be validated by the HSOP but if someone is sealed in the Temple, they are sealed by someone with the keys to do that and hopefully validated in Heaven and I am asking what's the difference between the HSOP and the Sealing keys if they do the same thing and why is marriage something you need for the sealing keys but not for an ordinance like say baptism? on a related note, when I talk about experience I grew up in the Church, nursery to now and growing up I heard all these RMs talk about when they were released from their mission they had this experience of physically feeling the "mantle" leave them, like something physically left them almost and it was a moment that they felt one way before and now they felt different after this mantle left them. When I was sitting in the Stake President's office and he told me to take my tag off, I was expecting to physically feel this sensation of something leaving me but I felt nothing. I concluded either I never had anything to begin with or it never left me which I am curious as to what was going on. Is the HSOP like that kind of thing? and what of the Sealing keys, why are their two kinds of validation in Heaven and is it to be experienced? Ok let's take it a sentence or two at a time Quote So, we are taught that the HSOP validates ordinances in Heaven but I don't recall having any kind of confirmation that it was done for me, so how do I know any ordinance i've ever participated in is good or validated in Heaven? am I to experience this at some point or what? The only possible way you can know what the Holy Spirit has done is through testimony. You can ask God to confirm you are "ok" if you want. That is the only way to know anything like this. One could have a testimony that you are "OK with God" and that your ordinances are "good to go" I suppose- though I have never thought about it. If you have done the ordinance you have done all you can do- and we are saved by grace "after all we can do". So you are worried that the person who did the ordinance did not have the authority? Frankly we make mistakes all the time in the temple in performing ordinances- some are caught and I am sure many are not! But we are taught that in such cases the Lord will not hold it against us- because we have done "all we can do". We have been taught that the "atonement covers" ordinances done in faith even if not perfect. After all this is a loving Father here, these are not magic incantations performed to change us into a newt- or a Harry Potter movie where the spell doesn't work because a word was left out. In short, I have no reason personally to think that this is a problem at all, and have been taught that it doesn't matter. That's good enough for me. Quote Then we are taught that we need Sealing keys to also validate in Heaven an ordinance like being sealed in the Temple, my question is why do we need two validations for an ordinance? Sealing keys are only necessary for..... SEALINGS!. If you are sealed by a "sealer" by definition he has the keys. Where are the two validations? The sealer has the keys - we take that on faith. We don't ask him if he is worthy or to show his certificate that he is a sealer- we know that- per question 1 above- that if we act in good faith, Father will not hold us accountable for someone else's mistake or transgression that the sealer might have done last night. Same for Priests blessing the sacrament. Who knows what they were doing on Saturday night? Yet God does not hold us accountable for what others do. Quote When I was baptized my brother didn't hold the Sealing keys to perform the ordinance, the Bishop held the key to allow it to happen but not to seal it in heaven, so that ordinance we are taught would be validated by the HSOP but if someone is sealed in the Temple, they are sealed by someone with the keys to do that and hopefully validated in Heaven and I am asking what's the difference between the HSOP and the Sealing keys if they do the same thing and why is marriage something you need for the sealing keys but not for an ordinance like say baptism? OK to me this is another issue entirely. They do NOT "do the same thing"!! The keys to do the ordinance are one thing- the Holy Spirit's job in validating it is something else entirely that we know very little about. I think that might be the distinction you are missing here- we do the best we can and the Holy Spirit somehow, we are taught, "certifies" that all we can do has been done- and so we have a Promise that the ordinance was valid or made so by the atonement if in good faith some error was made Baptism does not require sealing keys- it is not a sealing. Yet the HSOP will verify or "seal" that the ordinance was valid- or so we are taught. I personally think that some day we may understand that this kind of "sealing" is just using the word to describe something totally different. "Sealing" has two different meanings which I think are getting confused here. Quote seal1 /ˈsē(ə)l/ noun 1. a device or substance that is used to join two things together so as to prevent them from coming apart or to prevent anything from passing between them. "blue smoke from the exhaust suggests worn valve seals" synonyms:sealant, sealer, adhesive, caulk, caulking "the seal around the bathtub" 2. a piece of wax, lead, or other material with an individual design stamped into it, attached to a document to show that it has come from the person who claims to have issued it. synonyms:emblem, symbol, insignia, device, badge, crest, coat of arms, mark, monogram, stamp "the king put his seal on the letter" verb So I think the two senses of "seal" is the problem here. Baptism does not make "two things one" and so sealing keys are not required. However in a marriage the very nature of it is to make two things one. But baptism- and all ordinances -require that the HSOP certifies that they happened. One kind of sealing is to make two things into one, as one does in a marriage. The other kind of sealing is to verify or validate the authenticity of a document or in this case an ordinance. A "Sealer" in the temple makes two individuals into one "flesh" The HSOP 's job is to validate ordinances- TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! There are NOT "two validations" Quote on a related note, when I talk about experience I grew up in the Church, nursery to now and growing up I heard all these RMs talk about when they were released from their mission they had this experience of physically feeling the "mantle" leave them, like something physically left them almost and it was a moment that they felt one way before and now they felt different after this mantle left them. When I was sitting in the Stake President's office and he told me to take my tag off, I was expecting to physically feel this sensation of something leaving me but I felt nothing. I concluded either I never had anything to begin with or it never left me which I am curious as to what was going on. Is the HSOP like that kind of thing? and what of the Sealing keys, why are their two kinds of validation in Heaven and is it to be experienced? Each of us have different kinds of spiritual experiences and one should never judge one's own experiences by those of others. If you have a testimony of the atonement and that the church works in your life to bring you closer to God, then all the other smaller issues are taken care of, at least in my opinion. Don't sweat the little stuff. For what it's worth I know the Bishop has a mantel but it took me months to realize it. Hope that helps a little. 2
CV75 Posted November 5, 2018 Posted November 5, 2018 Hi @Duncan, @mfbukowski answered this well enough, but I'll add one or two cents’ worth. People do get in-person confirmations by heavenly (including the Holy Ghost) or earthly beings with the authority to do so that their ordinances are valid and that they have kept them sufficiently to have their calling and election made sure. But most often, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating,” in other words, we try it out to know it is good. We do that by receiving and keeping the ordinance, but also by performing it for others whenever possible. If one is good, for example baptism (essential) or the sacrament (not essential), we can sense that all the other ordinances are good. Great revelations can come by way of partaking the sacrament in this attitude. The sealing keys allow God’s representatives to perform the exalting ordinances of marriage (spouses) and family (children to parents) for the living, and to perform all proxy ordinances from baptism onward for the dead who await and receive them in heaven. Perhaps the “two validations” you are referring to might be the Holy Spirit of Promise validating the ordinances performed by valid authority, which might get to the difference between the two. Yet a third sense of sealing is to "set in place" as making the elements of the earth to align with and bring about heaven’s purposes (we don’t seem to witness this too often), and as setting in place one’s exaltation as mentioned above. 1
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