Jeff Robinson on the LGBT issue at FairMormon

[kllindley]

1 minute ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

Well, I don't have 25 years of therapy experience, but I can show him a case I know of today, if he likes. 

I actually would love that information. I have still yet to hear such an experience aside from general rumors and claims that it happens all the time. 

Take for example, a recently viral story about a young high school student who received thousands of dollars of scholarship after publicly stating that his parents kicked him out for being gay. He later admitted in an interview that his parents had been more than happy to have him in their home for several years, knowing he was gay. They asked that he still follow family Rules, including attending their church on Sunday. What he was no longer willing to do this, he moved it with a friend. I don't consider this being kicked out for being gay.

[rockpond]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

What is Prince's scientific background?

Never mind, I found it...pathology and infectious disease.  Medical model.

Yep... for others wondering:

Prince has a PhD in pathology with his most significant accomplishment in that field being his discoveries that led to the creation of a vaccine for RSV.

 

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, kllindley said:

What makes me laugh so much about this post is how much epigenetics is identified as a primary component of language aquisition and language development. In other words, the analogy to language IS an appeal to epigenetics. 

Wouldn't epigenetics be a primary component of the ability to acquire/develop language but NOT be relevant to WHICH language?  I thought that was solely impacted by the language(s) you were exposed to from birth onward.

[california boy]

10 minutes ago, Rock_N_Roll said:

Well, I don't have 25 years of therapy experience, but I can show him a case I know of today, if he likes. 

Or worse

Woman pleads guilty of murdering of son, 8, thought to be gay

Father Shot Son, 14, Because He thought He Was Gay

 

[kllindley]

8 minutes ago, rockpond said:

For the vast majority of gay people their sexual orientation is "a non-negotiable need" (immutable). 

So this is a belief you hold despite research suggesting otherwise? I can't fault you for that. I also hold those kinds of beliefs, like the historicity of the Book of Mormon. 

But I think it is very important to clarify that "non-negotiable need" =/= immutability. That's not what we're talking about. 

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, california boy said:

Or worse

Woman pleads guilty of murdering of son, 8, thought to be gay

Father Shot Son, 14, Because He thought He Was Gay

 

I don't see where those articles state that these are LDS parents.  Is that information you got elsewhere?

[Kevin Christensen]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I'm wondering if I am reading/interpreting you wrong:  I don't believe that there are "choices about how we treat one another".  Christ taught one way to treat one another.

For me it is simple -- For the vast majority of gay people their sexual orientation is "a non-negotiable need" (immutable).  And, since my understanding of God's plan for His children is that he wants us in loving familial relationships (not celibacy) in THIS life, I support marriage for our LGBT brothers and sisters to the person they attracted to.  All else makes for interesting discussion but is not relevant to the core issue.

If you did not read the essay I linked you are clearly not reading me, not seeing the options I have not only seen but have personally experienced as real, and not just as an opinion in a journal, and therefore you miss the point I am attempting to make.

I have occasionally mentioned that one reason my essay has not generated much comment is because acknowledging it disrupts the defining myths of the dominant ideology.  It's best not to even think about addiction as a contributing factor in behavior. That creates options and even responsibility  the many prefer not to even imagine, let alone discuss.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited August 10, 2018 by Kevin Christensen

[kllindley]

7 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Wouldn't epigenetics be a primary component of the ability to acquire/develop language but NOT be relevant to WHICH language?  I thought that was solely impacted by the language(s) you were exposed to from birth onward.

So you're saying that the only place to be exposed to language would be in the family?  

Again, I'm not going to try to defend an argument I haven't made and neither has Robinson.  No one is saying that sexual orientation is in all aspects exactly identical to language. It is a useful analogy that in key elements is generally consistent with what we know about both. 

[ALarson]

16 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I actually would love that information. I have still yet to hear such an experience aside from general rumors and claims that it happens all the time. 

Take for example, a recently viral story about a young high school student who received thousands of dollars of scholarship after publicly stating that his parents kicked him out for being gay. He later admitted in an interview that his parents had been more than happy to have him in their home for several years, knowing he was gay. They asked that he still follow family Rules, including attending their church on Sunday. What he was no longer willing to do this, he moved it with a friend. I don't consider this being kicked out for being gay.

I personally know of several instances over the years where parents asked their kid to leave if they were going to even date the same sex.  But are you referring to just kicking them out when they came out as being gay?  I only know of one that fits that criteria and the parents were over the top staunch, letter of the law, LDS.

[kllindley]

14 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Wouldn't epigenetics be a primary component of the ability to acquire/develop language but NOT be relevant to WHICH language?  I thought that was solely impacted by the language(s) you were exposed to from birth onward.

Further, epigenetics is explicitly about what environmental stimuli a person is exposed to throughout their lives. 

[rockpond]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

So you're saying that the only place to be exposed to language would be in the family?  

Again, I'm not going to try to defend an argument I haven't made and neither has Robinson.  No one is saying that sexual orientation is in all aspects exactly identical to language. It is a useful analogy that in key elements is generally consistent with what we know about both. 

No... family is not the only place that be exposed to language.

[rockpond]

@kllindley

For some reason I get an error each time I try to respond to this post of yours but I didn't want to leave it unanswered, so here is my reply:

 

Immutability of sexual orientation for the majority?  Yes, I hold to that belief and have yet to encounter compelling evidence (scientific or otherwise) to the contrary.

My reference to "non-negotiable need" was because the post I was responding to had used that term.  I actually see that as being a very subjective term and not equivalent to immutability.  Though, as I write this I'd have to admit that even immutability is a subjective term and you and I may be interpreting it differently.

[kllindley]

35 minutes ago, california boy said:

When considering options, what different options does a gay person have that is any different than a straight person?

I took that to mean having accurate knowledge about the possibility and likely outcomes of those options. If LGBT youth are only told that a heterosexual marriage is doomed and will make everyone involved miserable, it's that really going to be an option for them? 

And I am just as strong to advocate for the opposite. If LGBT youth are only told that all gay relationships are promiscuous, involve drugs and AIDS, and are incapable of actual love, that is just as wrong and immoral. 

I took the value of this way of looking at sexual orientation is to leave a door open for those who want to stay in the Church and live according to the doctrine they have a testimony of. 

[rockpond]

8 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Further, epigenetics is explicitly about what environmental stimuli a person is exposed to throughout their lives. 

When it comes to language development, it seems pretty clear that one develops the language they are predominantly exposed to.  How many children are born into the environmental stimuli of an English speaking family but wind up speaking French instead?

This is why I think it's an odd analogy.  Every gay person I know had the rather constant environmental stimuli of heterosexual parents throughout their formative years.  I presume that Robinson is wise enough to have figured that out so he must be referring to something else, something more complex and nuanced.  I guess I'm curious what that is and how he explains it.

[kllindley]

11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

But are you referring to just kicking them out when they came out as being gay?  I only know of one that fits that criteria and the parents were over the top staunch, letter of the law, LDS.

Yeah, that's the claim Jeff Robinson made that was being contested. 

I believe that even one such instance is a terrible tragedy. Is that a public situation? Are this individual and their parents on record, or willing to be, about what happened?

[rockpond]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

If LGBT youth are only told that a heterosexual marriage is doomed and will make everyone involved miserable, it's that really going to be an option for them? 

Statistically that's true and ought to be understood by any church member or leader encouraging a gay or lesbian individual to consider a mixed-orientation marriage.

[kllindley]

Just now, rockpond said:

When it comes to language development, it seems pretty clear that one develops the language they are predominantly exposed to.  How many children are born into the environmental stimuli of an English speaking family but wind up speaking French instead?

This is why I think it's an odd analogy.  Every gay person I know had the rather constant environmental stimuli of heterosexual parents throughout their formative years.  I presume that Robinson is wise enough to have figured that out so he must be referring to something else, something more complex and nuanced.  I guess I'm curious what that is and how he explains it.

Fair enough. I also look forward to reading the full text. 

I believe the major difference is in how we are even talking about same-sex attraction (or refusing to talk about it) either as an experience or as an innate part of the identity. 

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Yeah, that's the claim Jeff Robinson made that was being contested. 

I believe that even one such instance is a terrible tragedy. Is that a public situation? Are this individual and their parents on record, or willing to be, about what happened?

They didn't go public at the time and as far as I know, they still haven't.  They're pretty private and were heart broken over the whole thing.  As far as I know, they are still estranged, but I'll try to reach out the them.  We were good friends at one time, but we've kind of lost touch. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by ALarson

[kllindley]

1 minute ago, rockpond said:

Statistically that's true and ought to be understood by any church member or leader encouraging a gay or lesbian individual to consider a mixed-orientation marriage.

It is only statistically true in a non-representative sample that did not control for factors like both spouses being informed, infidelity, etc. 

[kllindley]

6 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I presume that Robinson is wise enough to have figured that out so he must be referring to something else, something more complex and nuanced

Yes. I'm sorry I haven't been able to adequately articulate that nuance. 

[rockpond]

Just now, kllindley said:

Yes. I'm sorry I haven't been able to adequately articulate that nuance. 

Not your responsibility.

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

It is only statistically true in a non-representative sample that did not control for factors like both spouses being informed, infidelity, etc. 

When you have evidence that both spouses being informed about their mixed-orientation status makes the marriage more likely to succeed than fail, let me know.  Until then, I stand by my statement.

[kllindley]

Just now, rockpond said:

Not your responsibility.

Thanks. I guess I take that on because I've been willing to defend his analogy and the implications it has for LGBT members, because it resonates so profoundly and deeply with me and my LDS LGBT friends. 

[kllindley]

9 minutes ago, rockpond said:

When you have evidence that both spouses being informed about their mixed-orientation status makes the marriage more likely to succeed than fail, let me know.  Until then, I stand by my statement.

I look forward to some phenomenal work being done by the Reconciliation and Growth Project and their "4 Options" study. 

I will say that I know of over 30 individuals who did not complete Dehlin's study because of methodological bias and questions that only allowed for negative responses. Given the small numbers of successful marriages he has to draw on, that number would have substantially changed his data. 

Also the Straight Spouse Network has great data on mixed-orientation marriages. Roughly 30% last after the partner comes out. 30% end immediately after the partner comes out. And 30% try to make it work, but end within several years of the partner coming out.  If you remove the 30% that end immediately after coming out (they wouldn't get married if that happened before marriage), we now have a 50% divorce rate. That's not much higher than marriage in general, and a far cry from statistically doomed. Unleas you're willing to make that statement about every marriage. 

Edited August 10, 2018 by kllindley

[USU78]

12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In 25 years of therapy. he has never encountered a family which has rejected or thrown an SSA offspring out of their house.  The split has always come only when the child gave the parents an ultimatum, such as -- I want to have my gay lover live with me here.

Nice to see that destructive and nasty-spirited trope debunked.