How to Answer Questions about Church History

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

An interesting podcast discussion where they spend a couple hours analyzing and discussing this interview with Dr. Harper was just released, in case anyone is interested.  

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/08/how-to-not-answer-questions-on-church-history-with-steven-harper-part-1/

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2018/08/how-to-not-answer-questions-on-church-history-with-steven-harper-part-2/

 

I have listened to both podcasts.  Both were produced well, and they bring up some very good points.

[hope_for_things]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

You have had spiritual experiences and have made a decision to interpret them as valuable, but not necessarily evidence of truth. 

I have had many spiritual experiences about Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon and the prophet Joseph Smith.  I interpret them as evidence that those things are true. With that faith, I read the scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, and act on what they teach.  That obedience results in further experiences that prove to me that those spiritual experiences testify of truth.  They are foundational in the joy of my overall life experience.  My interpretation of those experiences gives me a framework for a philosophically tidy and deeply meaningful life.  Regarding historical accuracy, I believe a lot of it, probably most is true.  But I also believe the ancient prophets were people like me who sometimes remember inaccurately, or misunderstand what has happened in a given incident.  But those incidents are so minor as to have no impact on my interpretation of spiritual experiences.  I accept their value to me independent of historical accuracy.  That does not discount their historical accuracy to me.

What I'm trying to get people to think about is the idea that they can learn facts about history through religious experience.  I separate the two things completely, because I have no evidence that people can actually learn facts about history through prayer and religious feelings.  Would you think you could learn whether or not George Washington really chopped down an apple tree through prayer?  What about whether or not Christopher Columbus really discovered America?  I think most people would say no to those questions.  Would you expect God to tell you which stock to buy so that you could make a lot of money?  Or which lottery ticket you should purchase?  I still think most would say no.  

So something changes in Mormonism when people start praying about other questions.  If people don't believe God will tell them whether certain historical myths about America are true (Columbus & Washington), why do they think God will tell them if Nephi and Moroni existed as historical figures in ancient America?   If prayer can be used to accurately assess history, why not the present as well, why not other unknown information that we could use to financially benefit the members of the church or the church as an institution?   

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

It's accurate enough in so many ways that have been confirmed to me, I accept it as factual and generally historical, as I do the other scriptures.  The way I have described here proves it to my satisfaction.   When I don't see the accuracy of a scripture, I wait for the flash of inspiration or other evidence to clarify any confusion.  It usually comes.  Where it doesn't, I wait with faith the answer will be revealed eventually.  That's where faith comes in, the evidence of things not seen-- apparently unsupported belief sustained by spiritual experiences.

I would answer that your personal experience doesn't tell you anything about Joseph's first vision experience itself.  Not one thing.  But it does tell you how you relate to the narrative you were told about.  It tells you a lot about your personal sense of certainty and how you feel about that thing (these things are important for religious meaning), but it doesn't give you any factual information about what Joseph experienced.  

[RevTestament]

51 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I would answer that your personal experience doesn't tell you anything about Joseph's first vision experience itself.  Not one thing.  But it does tell you how you relate to the narrative you were told about.  It tells you a lot about your personal sense of certainty and how you feel about that thing (these things are important for religious meaning), but it doesn't give you any factual information about what Joseph experienced.  

My oldest son was considering not going on a mission. He just didn't have a testimony. However, he went to seminary classes. On one occasion his assignment included giving an oral report on the First Vision. When he began to give this report, he says he felt the spirit come over him "like a freight train." With that witness to him, he came to believe the truthfulness of the facts of the first vision as he was relating them. It had a profound effect upon him, and he then worked to save money to go on a mission - on which he had many more experiences of the Spirit witnessing to him and through him to others. Is the Spirit a more trustworthy witness to the accuracy of historical facts than your own judgment? You apparently think not. Despite the many, many posts about the faults of determining historical "facts" you still don't get it. You approach history as if it were science - like you can determine "factual information about what Joseph experienced." You cannot. All you can do is evaluate what Joseph himself related about it, and others with whom he came in contact. It was a personal experience - not a scientific experiment.

Edited August 21, 2018 by RevTestament

[hope_for_things]

55 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

My oldest son was considering not going on a mission. He just didn't have a testimony. However, he went to seminary classes. On one occasion his assignment included giving an oral report on the First Vision. When he began to give this report, he says he felt the spirit come over him "like a freight train." With that witness to him, he came to believe the truthfulness of the facts of the first vision as he was relating them. It had a profound effect upon him, and he then worked to save money to go on a mission - on which he had many more experiences of the Spirit witnessing to him and through him to others. Is the Spirit a more trustworthy witness to the accuracy of historical facts than your own judgment? You apparently think not. Despite the many, many posts about the faults of determining historical "facts" you still don't get it. You approach history as if it were science - like you can determine "factual information about what Joseph experienced." You cannot. All you can do is evaluate what Joseph himself related about it, and others with whom he came in contact. It was a personal experience - not a scientific experiment.

People all over the world have these kinds of experiences, they aren't unique to Mormonism, but they can be very powerful experiences.  My point is not to say that your son or others don't experience amazing spiritual things.  I'm trying to say that its your interpretation of what this experience means, that is making you think it confirms historical facts.  The experience is one thing, and the meaning that you take from that experience is another.  Its this meaning and the narrative that you construct around the meaning that are what makes you think it confirms facts about history.  

History isn't considered a hard science, but it does have a scholarly approach and methodology that is studied at the academy and modern historical methods to be as objective as possible and when reviewing source materials and methodically reconstructing the past and stating assumptions and attempting to avoid unnecessary bias.  Its certainly not a perfect reconstruction, and there will be many different elements and viewpoints to consider.  

I never said we could determine factual information about what Joseph experienced in his first vision.  I've said quite the contrary, I've stated that we can never know what exactly he experienced, and that Joseph's experience was a personal subjective religious experience and it isn't even accessible for evaluation.  We can evaluate different accounts and the historical descriptions and data surrounding those accounts, but no person will ever know what or how Joseph experienced what he did.  How would that even be possible?  

[USU78]

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

[W]e can never know what exactly he experienced, and that Joseph's experience was a personal subjective religious experience and it isn't even accessible for evaluation.  We can evaluate different accounts and the historical descriptions and data surrounding those accounts, but no person will ever know what or how Joseph experienced what he did.  How would that even be possible?  

On this you and I, and Church leadership, are quite in agreement.  Indeed, the following is attributed to St Francis, and has been cited numerous times in Conference addresses:

Quote

Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

The only way to access JSJr's experiences in the Grove, in the Temple, in Liberty Jail, or anywhere else is by seeking communication with that Source from Whom JSJr received his own experiences:

D&C 8:2; 9:7-8; 6:15-16, et seq.

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

On this you and I, and Church leadership, are quite in agreement.  Indeed, the following is attributed to St Francis, and has been cited numerous times in Conference addresses:

Quote

Preach the gospel, and if necessary, use words.

I definitely agree with this.  

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

The only way to access JSJr's experiences in the Grove, in the Temple, in Liberty Jail, or anywhere else is by seeking communication with that Source from Whom JSJr received his own experiences:

D&C 8:2; 9:7-8; 6:15-16, et seq.

I don't agree with this though.  You can't learn about the experiences of others through prayer.  You can only learn about yourself and your own experience and relationship with God.  The subjective experience of another person isn't accessible to you.  

[Meerkat]

10 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Would you think you could learn whether or not George Washington really chopped down an apple tree through prayer?  What about whether or not Christopher Columbus really discovered America?  I think most people would say no to those questions.  Would you expect God to tell you which stock to buy so that you could make a lot of money?  Or which lottery ticket you should purchase? 

Absolutely not.  None of those things have anything to do with my eternal progress or salvation.  God has promised that He will answer my sincere prayers, if I ask not amiss.  And He does it frequently.  

10 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I would answer that your personal experience doesn't tell you anything about Joseph's first vision experience itself.  Not one thing.  But it does tell you how you relate to the narrative you were told about.  It tells you a lot about your personal sense of certainty and how you feel about that thing (these things are important for religious meaning), but it doesn't give you any factual information about what Joseph experienced.  

I disagree.  My spiritual experience of answered prayer confirms to my satisfaction that the Book of Mormon is true.  The eleven witnesses confirm to my satisfaction that Joseph Smith had the gold plates, and is therefore a prophet of God.  Those two items give credence to me that the prophet Joseph experienced what he said he did.  And my life experience from the past 45 years and the fruits of my life add immeasurably to that testimony.  Three of our five children have experienced that testimony.  Two brothers and their families also believe it because they, like I, put in the hard work, patience, hope, study and faith and were rewarded with our testimonies.  My wife, children, brothers and their families can all relate to each other out of a common revelatory experience.  That's how it works.  It is hard to obtain a testimony from a skeptical point of view.  In my opinion, a person would need to postpone their skepticism until they approached the project with sincerity, real intent, hope, faith in Christ, patience and a willingness to work hard to find out if it is true.  That may take a person as far as fasting, praying, studying, pleading, repenting, wrestling with God for an answer.  My testimony is that the answer will come.  But there is work a person needs to do for themselves.

It seems to me you are asking me to do the hard work, then present it to you as a gift-- the perfect phrase, the "aha" explanation.  It doesn't happen that way for most people, if any.  To the question "What does salt taste like?," I wouldn't know how to answer a person with no taste buds or had never tasted salt.  But someone who had tasted it would understand immediately. We would speak with a common vocabulary.  Of course, a testimony is deeper than even that.  It needs to be nurtured.  The Gospel needs to be lived because it is also easy to lose a testimony.  I have a testimony of Jesus Christ, a testimony that I joyfully stake my life on.  I have the same depth of testimony for the Book of Mormon as a testament of Jesus Christ, and love the Prophet Joseph Smith who translated it.  This knowledge is precious to me.   This knowledge can be yours, but not without putting in the time, effort, hope, faith, patience, prayer.  Nourish the seed and watch it grow.

"But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for it's nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.  Now this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.  And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life."  From Alma 32

Edited August 22, 2018 by Meerkat

[hope_for_things]

16 hours ago, Meerkat said:

On 8/21/2018 at 9:03 AM, hope_for_things said:

Would you think you could learn whether or not George Washington really chopped down an apple tree through prayer?  What about whether or not Christopher Columbus really discovered America?  I think most people would say no to those questions.  Would you expect God to tell you which stock to buy so that you could make a lot of money?  Or which lottery ticket you should purchase? 

Absolutely not.  None of those things have anything to do with my eternal progress or salvation.  God has promised that He will answer my sincere prayers, if I ask not amiss.  And He does it frequently.  

Just a follow up question on this.  How do you know which questions are of eternal significance or not?  For instance, many people all over the earth and throughout history have a variety of different religious beliefs.  Do you think it would be important to know if all these different cultures and their religious beliefs are true or not?  Also, how can you distinguish between a proposition that is eternally significant and one that isn't?

16 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I disagree.  My spiritual experience of answered prayer confirms to my satisfaction that the Book of Mormon is true.  The eleven witnesses confirm to my satisfaction that Joseph Smith had the gold plates, and is therefore a prophet of God.  Those two items give credence to me that the prophet Joseph experienced what he said he did. 

Well, the question of whether the BoM is true in the sense that you're saying is different than what I've been talking about on this thread.  I was basically saying that we can't know anything about historical facts through prayer, that is not the purpose of or within the realm of possibility when it comes to answers you can get through prayer.  True in the sense you're talking about is all about goodness and trust and a sense of reliability.  It's more like trying to describe the love you have for someone close to you.  That love is true and your relationship is true.  But that truth doesn't tell you anything about the facts of history about that family member.  It doesn't tell you where they were born or what they ate for breakfast or whether they've visited Jerusalem in their life, none of those kinds of data points are answered when you feel like your loved one is true.  

16 hours ago, Meerkat said:

It seems to me you are asking me to do the hard work, then present it to you as a gift-- the perfect phrase, the "aha" explanation.  It doesn't happen that way for most people, if any.  To the question "What does salt taste like?," I wouldn't know how to answer a person with no taste buds or had never tasted salt.  But someone who had tasted it would understand immediately. We would speak with a common vocabulary.  Of course, a testimony is deeper than even that.  It needs to be nurtured.  The Gospel needs to be lived because it is also easy to lose a testimony.  I have a testimony of Jesus Christ, a testimony that I joyfully stake my life on.  I have the same depth of testimony for the Book of Mormon as a testament of Jesus Christ, and love the Prophet Joseph Smith who translated it.  This knowledge is precious to me.   This knowledge can be yours, but not without putting in the time, effort, hope, faith, patience, prayer.  Nourish the seed and watch it grow.

"But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for it's nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.  Now this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.  And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.

But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life."  From Alma 32

One thing I would ask is how you would apply these same principles to any other faith claims out there.  Couldn't your process also apply to Scientology just as easily as Mormonism?  People that participate in other religions find value in their religion they nourish the seed in their practice of these religions and it grows.   I don't have a problem with you or anyone else calling that a true experience.  But its a different kind of truth than factual truths about science and the world we live in.  Its a personal and subjective truth.  And that's really been my point.  

 

[Meerkat]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Just a follow up question on this.  How do you know which questions are of eternal significance or not?  For instance, many people all over the earth and throughout history have a variety of different religious beliefs.  Do you think it would be important to know if all these different cultures and their religious beliefs are true or not?  Also, how can you distinguish between a proposition that is eternally significant and one that isn't?

Subjective

Well, the question of whether the BoM is true in the sense that you're saying is different than what I've been talking about on this thread.  I was basically saying that we can't know anything about historical facts through prayer, that is not the purpose of or within the realm of possibility when it comes to answers you can get through prayer. 

You may be right on this specific point relating to the BoM.  It IS within the realm of possibility though.  Geographically, I needed to find a dear friend from Junior High School to clear up an offense I had made about 15 years prior.  After calling and unable to find the family or anyone who knew what had happened to them, we fasted and prayed as a family.  A few weeks later, we took a vacation to a spot out on the Olympic Peninsula.  Coming home, we stopped into a log cabin converted to a convenience store.  There, behind the register, was my friend. She and her husband owned the store out in the middle of nowhere.  I was able to apologize.  My geographic prayer was answered.  However, geography has no impact on my testimony of the BoM or salvation issues.  I have faith those issues will be resolved in due time.  

True in the sense you're talking about is all about goodness and trust and a sense of reliability.  It's more like trying to describe the love you have for someone close to you.  That love is true and your relationship is true.  But that truth doesn't tell you anything about the facts of history about that family member.  It doesn't tell you where they were born or what they ate for breakfast or whether they've visited Jerusalem in their life, none of those kinds of data points are answered when you feel like your loved one is true.  

That is true.  None of what you are referring to is relevant to my testimony or my salvation.  What is the point of this conversation?  You asked me earlier about praying for lottery ticket numbers.  Why would you or I care?  I care about the principles and values God has asked me to live by, and the attendant joy I receive for doing so.  Such answers would be subjective, but who cares?  No offense intended.

One thing I would ask is how you would apply these same principles to any other faith claims out there.  Couldn't your process also apply to Scientology just as easily as Mormonism?  People that participate in other religions find value in their religion they nourish the seed in their practice of these religions and it grows.   I don't have a problem with you or anyone else calling that a true experience.  But its a different kind of truth than factual truths about science and the world we live in.  Its a personal and subjective truth.  And that's really been my point.  

I agree!  It is subjective.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Meerkat