strappinglad Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 As I have mentioned before, I am currently going through the Old Testament again and am in Psalms. The word ' sheol ' is seen often and I get the impression that the Israelite idea of the afterlife is different than the LDS version. The underworld is a place for the dead and it seems more like the concept of ' limbo ' , than a spiritual paradise . Spirit prison maybe. Can anyone here clarify the concept for me or point me to sources that will?
Mormons Talk Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: As I have mentioned before, I am currently going through the Old Testament again and am in Psalms. The word ' sheol ' is seen often and I get the impression that the Israelite idea of the afterlife is different than the LDS version. The underworld is a place for the dead and it seems more like the concept of ' limbo ' , than a spiritual paradise . Spirit prison maybe. Can anyone here clarify the concept for me or point me to sources that will? I highly recommend buying a multi-volume Bible Dictionary--particularly in electronic format such as you find on Logos or Olive Tree--if you're interested in these sorts of questions (e.g., the Anchor Bible Dictionary, the New Interpreter's, the Dictionary of the Old Testament, etc.). Here's an entry from the New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible: "Sheol sheeˊohl [שְׁאוֹלsheʾol, שְׁאֹל sheʾol; ᾅδης hadēs]. The underworld according to Israelite religion was named sheʾol. This term occurs sixty-six times (e.g., Gen 37:35; Num 16:30; Deut 32:22; 1 Sam 2:6; Job 7:9; Ps 6:5; Isa 5:14). Much ANE literature was concerned with the dead and their abode, as reflected, for instance, in the Egyptian Book of the Dead (among many other texts), and in Mesopotamia in the Gilgamesh epic, The Descent of Ishtar, and Nergal and Ereshkigal. The OT, by contrast, shows little interest in the underworld abode of the dead, with infrequent mention and minimal description. This suggests that it did not fascinate or intrigue the biblical writers as it did others, though it remains debated how authentically this lack of reference reflects Israelite religion." "Death is a frequent OT theme, with the root mwth (מות; muth [מוּת], “die”; maweth [מָוֵת], “dead, death”) occurring 1,000 times. However, while precision is difficult, there are only some 100 references to the underworld, a strikingly small number. Underworld references occur mostly in psalmodic, reflective, or prophetic literature. Thus it is a concept that involves some emotional engagement. There is minimal description of underworld conditions, though occasional glimpses suggest flaccid, somnolent existence (Isa 14:9-10) or a vast, subdivided burial chamber (Ezek 32:21-28). The underworld is sometimes mentioned as a cosmological extremity, in contrast to the heavens above, but mostly to indicate a human destiny that the wicked merit and the righteous seek to avoid. Since no alternative destiny is proposed, except tentatively in a few psalmic and proverbial expressions of hope." "The underworld’s inhabitants are sometimes called shades (refaʾim רְפָאִים). This term also occurs of a reputed ancient people (Deut 2:11), of Philistine giants (1 Chr 20:4), and of a valley near Jerusalem (Josh 15:8). The similar Ugaritic term rpum also apparently indicates both the living and the dead. The parallel is intriguing, but the complex relationship between the two meanings remains unclear. Further, the dead Israelite REPHAIM are never thought to interact with the living, unlike their Ugaritic counterparts. The dead are also twice called ʾelohim (אֱלֹהִים), “gods” (1 Sam 28:13; Isa 8:19), though in contexts of illicit consultation. The general paucity of such references shows official disapproval and/or disinterest." "The LXX normally translated sheʾol as hadēs. The concept of compartmentalization within Hades was developed (notably 1 En. 22), with the wicked consigned to GEHENNA. The term hadēs occurs in the NT with various connotations: as a place where the unrepentant will go at the judgment (Matt 11:23; Luke 10:15), as an opposing force to heaven (Matt 16:18), as a place of torment (Luke 16:23), and as a metaphor for death (Rev 1:18; 6:8). See ANCESTOR WORSHIP; DEAD, ABODE OF THE; DEATH, NT; DEATH, OT; NECROMANCY." Edited April 25, 2018 by Mormons Talk 3
Robert F. Smith Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) Here on this board, at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/70418-new-revelations-and-the-future/?page=19&tab=comments#comment-1209811392 , I recently said: On 4/16/2018 at 5:45 PM, clarkgoble said: .......................................... Yes, although one has to be careful too. I don't know much about Egyptian practice beyond what Nibley's written but I know many types of divinizations including those inspired by Egypt during the Roman heyday really don't bear much resemblance to Mormon conceptions. Oh, but they do: Book of Mormon First & Second Death, along with the Lake of Fire are specifically ancient Egyptian (not found in the OT, and only in Rev in the NT). We also only find the First Estate and Second Estate in ancient Egypt and in the Book of Abraham -- which also includes the very Egyptian notion of Creation from already extant material, and that stars are deities. The Egyptian and Mormon notion of apotheosis is exactly the opposite of dark She'ol. Edited April 25, 2018 by Robert F. Smith 3
strappinglad Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 Thanks. I wonder why the apparent reluctance to deal with the topic in any real depth. To me , the LDS view is much more ' hopeful ' , more focused on the paradise side than the spirit prison side. The OT seems to be more stick than carrot. Perhaps the Israelites were more stiffnecked than we are now.
mfbukowski Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Mormons Talk said: I highly recommend buying a multi-volume Bible Dictionary--particularly in electronic format such as you find on Logos or Olive Tree--if you're interested in these sorts of questions (e.g., the Anchor Bible Dictionary, the New Interpreter's, the Dictionary of the Old Testament, etc.). Here's an entry from the New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible: "Sheol sheeˊohl [שְׁאוֹלsheʾol, שְׁאֹל sheʾol; ᾅδης hadēs]. The underworld according to Israelite religion was named sheʾol. This term occurs sixty-six times (e.g., Gen 37:35; Num 16:30; Deut 32:22; 1 Sam 2:6; Job 7:9; Ps 6:5; Isa 5:14). Much ANE literature was concerned with the dead and their abode, as reflected, for instance, in the Egyptian Book of the Dead (among many other texts), and in Mesopotamia in the Gilgamesh epic, The Descent of Ishtar, and Nergal and Ereshkigal. The OT, by contrast, shows little interest in the underworld abode of the dead, with infrequent mention and minimal description. This suggests that it did not fascinate or intrigue the biblical writers as it did others, though it remains debated how authentically this lack of reference reflects Israelite religion." "Death is a frequent OT theme, with the root mwth (מות; muth [מוּת], “die”; maweth [מָוֵת], “dead, death”) occurring 1,000 times. However, while precision is difficult, there are only some 100 references to the underworld, a strikingly small number. Underworld references occur mostly in psalmodic, reflective, or prophetic literature. Thus it is a concept that involves some emotional engagement. There is minimal description of underworld conditions, though occasional glimpses suggest flaccid, somnolent existence (Isa 14:9-10) or a vast, subdivided burial chamber (Ezek 32:21-28). The underworld is sometimes mentioned as a cosmological extremity, in contrast to the heavens above, but mostly to indicate a human destiny that the wicked merit and the righteous seek to avoid. Since no alternative destiny is proposed, except tentatively in a few psalmic and proverbial expressions of hope." "The underworld’s inhabitants are sometimes called shades (refaʾim רְפָאִים). This term also occurs of a reputed ancient people (Deut 2:11), of Philistine giants (1 Chr 20:4), and of a valley near Jerusalem (Josh 15:8). The similar Ugaritic term rpum also apparently indicates both the living and the dead. The parallel is intriguing, but the complex relationship between the two meanings remains unclear. Further, the dead Israelite REPHAIM are never thought to interact with the living, unlike their Ugaritic counterparts. The dead are also twice called ʾelohim (אֱלֹהִים), “gods” (1 Sam 28:13; Isa 8:19), though in contexts of illicit consultation. The general paucity of such references shows official disapproval and/or disinterest." "The LXX normally translated sheʾol as hadēs. The concept of compartmentalization within Hades was developed (notably 1 En. 22), with the wicked consigned to GEHENNA. The term hadēs occurs in the NT with various connotations: as a place where the unrepentant will go at the judgment (Matt 11:23; Luke 10:15), as an opposing force to heaven (Matt 16:18), as a place of torment (Luke 16:23), and as a metaphor for death (Rev 1:18; 6:8). See ANCESTOR WORSHIP; DEAD, ABODE OF THE; DEATH, NT; DEATH, OT; NECROMANCY." Yes but on the other hand the idea evolved more in a direction that we LDS might understand as "paradise" and "spirit prison" Think of the story of Dives and Lazarus and the Bosom of Abraham. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham And of course Christ is said to have the key to the gates of Hades, and removes the barrier between them, and preaches to the spirits in prison And Jesus speaks to the good thief that he will be with Him in Paradise- that very day. Edited April 25, 2018 by mfbukowski
Robert F. Smith Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, strappinglad said: Thanks. I wonder why the apparent reluctance to deal with the topic in any real depth. To me , the LDS view is much more ' hopeful ' , more focused on the paradise side than the spirit prison side. The OT seems to be more stick than carrot. Perhaps the Israelites were more stiffnecked than we are now. It might also be a function of the limited nature of biblical literature. There are some hints of something more than just She'ol (in Job 19:25-29, for example), and we have to wonder where the Pharisees got their belief in the bodily resurrection in later Judaism.
Gray Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It might also be a function of the limited nature of biblical literature. There are some hints of something more than just She'ol (in Job 19:25-29, for example), and we have to wonder where the Pharisees got their belief in the bodily resurrection in later Judaism. I assume that would come from Daniel?
smac97 Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 14 hours ago, strappinglad said: As I have mentioned before, I am currently going through the Old Testament again and am in Psalms. The word ' sheol ' is seen often and I get the impression that the Israelite idea of the afterlife is different than the LDS version. The underworld is a place for the dead and it seems more like the concept of ' limbo ' , than a spiritual paradise . Spirit prison maybe. Can anyone here clarify the concept for me or point me to sources that will? https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/sheol?lang=eng Quote Sheol The Hebrew name for the abode of departed spirits (corresponding to the Greek Hades), translated in the KJV “grave,” “pit,” and “hell,” depending on the context (see Gen. 37:35; Job 17:16; Ps. 16:10). https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/hell Quote Hell An English translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, hell signifies an abode of departed spirits and corresponds to the Greek Hades. In common speech it generally denotes the place of torment for the wicked, although it has been often held, both in the Jewish and the Christian churches, that Hades (meaning broadly the place of all departed spirits) consists of two parts, paradise and Gehenna, one the abode of the righteous and the other of the disobedient. Gehenna, or Gehenna of fire, is the Greek equivalent of the “valley of Hinnom,” a deep glen of Jerusalem where the idolatrous Jews offered their children to Moloch (2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 19:2–6). It was afterwards used as a place for burning the refuse of the city (2 Kgs. 23:10) and in that way became symbolic of the place of torment (Matt. 5:22, 29–30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). Expressions about “hell-fire” are probably due to the impression produced on men’s minds by the sight of this ceaseless burning and are figurative of the torment of those who willfully disobey God. In latter-day revelation hell is spoken of in at least two senses. One is the temporary abode in the spirit world of those who were disobedient in this mortal life. It is between death and the Resurrection, and persons who receive the telestial glory will abide there until the last resurrection (D&C 76:84–85, 106), at which time they will go to the telestial glory. In this sense the Book of Mormon speaks of spiritual death as hell (2 Ne. 9:10–12). Hell, as thus defined, will have an end, when all the captive spirits have paid the price of their sins and enter into a degree of glory after their resurrection. Statements about an everlasting hell (Hel. 6:28; Moro. 8:13) must be interpreted in their proper context in the light of D&C 19:4–12, which defines eternal and endless punishment. On the other hand, the devil and his angels, including the sons of perdition, are assigned to a place spoken of as a lake of fire—a figure of eternal anguish. This condition is sometimes called hell in the scriptures (2 Pet. 2:4; D&C 29:38; 88:113). This kind of hell, which is after the Resurrection and Judgment, is exclusively for the devil and his angels and is not the same as that consisting only of the period between death and resurrection. The one group are redeemed from hell and inherit some degree of glory. The other receive no glory. They continue in spiritual darkness. For them the conditions of hell remain. The second and third paragraphs seem particularly relevant. http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Hell Quote The term "hell" as used in the King James Version of the Bible is the English translation of four words in the original biblical languages: Hebrew sheol and Greek hades, geenna (Heb. gehenna), and a noun implied in the verb tartar. These terms generally signify the abode of all the dead, whether righteous or disobedient, although geenna and tartaróo are associated with a place of punishment. The derivation and literal meaning of sheol are unknown, but words in Hebrew derived from it bear the idea of "hollowness." Latter-day scriptures describe at least three senses of hell: (1) that condition of misery which may attend a person in mortality due to disobedience to divine law; (2) the miserable, but temporary, state of disobedient spirits in the spirit world awaiting the resurrection; (3) the permanent habitation of the sons of perdition, who suffer the second spiritual death and remain in hell even after the resurrection. The rest of the EOM article is worth a read. See also https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_What_is_the_Mormon_concept_of_Hell%3F Thanks, -Smac
Kevin Christensen Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 In her "Text and Context" essay on the transmission of the Hebrew Scriptures, Barker has this on an interesting point in the debate between Christians and Muslims on the state of the Christiana and Jewish canon: Quote Between Christian and Muslim, however, there was the old debate about the authenticity of the text. Caliph Umar II wrote to the Byzantine Emperor Leo III (717-740): ‘You declare that the Code was more than once written by the Children of Israel who read it and understood it, and that it was many times lost, so that for a long time there was nothing remaining of it remaining among them, till at a later period some men recomposed it out of their own heads... Why is it that in the Mosaic Code one finds no clear indication of either heaven or hell, or of the resurrection or judgement?’ 71 Leo acknowledged that the Scriptures had been written by Ezra, but declared that the books were exactly like those which had been lost, due to ‘the marvellous work of God’. Umar’s attitude could be dismissed as petulance (‘our beliefs are not there so it must be wrong.’), but the ‘lost’ Scriptures rejected by the Ezra tradition do in fact deal with heaven and hell, resurrection and judgement. These are major themes of the Enochic, priestly tradition, and enquiry about them was specifically prohibited for Jews. 72 . The present, final form of the Hebrew Scriptures has emphasised later tradition and suppressed the Enochic. 73 . http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TextAndContext.pdf And of course, the Book of Mormon has much more on the afterlife than does the Bible. https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2 FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 1
mfbukowski Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said: In her "Text and Context" essay on the transmission of the Hebrew Scriptures, Barker has this on an interesting point in the debate between Christians and Muslims on the state of the Christiana and Jewish canon: http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/TextAndContext.pdf And of course, the Book of Mormon has much more on the afterlife than does the Bible. https://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=1382&index=2 FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Thanks for those references- I had forgotten about your article on NDE's and the BOM.
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